Discussing (semi)fictional Routes And Branding

As discussed in another thread about unbranded liveries, I’d like to broaden the conversation and include a few more related topics.

Liveries
From what I understand, it's not always a lack of resources that slows down development—it’s often licensing issues. Securing licenses can take months of effort. As you can imagine, Train Operating Companies (TOCs) have bigger priorities than negotiating the use of their branding in a game. They’re busy handling contracts worth millions of euros. So even if DTG (or a third-party developer) wants to add a particular train, a missing license can mean that it may never appear in TSW.

So, I’d like to ask the community:

• Would you be okay with a debranded livery—where the colors are more or less correct, but the logo is missing?
  
  
• If the color scheme itself is protected as intellectual property, would you accept a completely fictional livery instead?
  
  
• Or would you prefer having the correct train with the wrong, but licensed, livery? For example, a DB-branded Stadler KISS instead of a WestfalenBahn one—even if the latter would be more accurate for a specific route?
  

Routes
What’s your opinion on semi-fictional routes? Not fantasy-style content like the Runaway Elf DLC, but something more grounded. For example, a route that looks and feels like it's in the UK, using accurate infrastructure, signals, and signage, but doesn’t actually exist in real life.

Would you pay for this kind of route?

I always think of the German route Im Köblitzer Bergland—it’s semi-fictional but remains one of the most iconic and beloved routes in TSC history.

 

On the routes, in principle yes. For example if the only way to get an Australian route in the game was to build it and make it a fictional UK one then sobeit.

Or my frequent call for Yugoslavia narrow gauge. Routes like the one down to Dubrovnik were well engineered and could be easily built as standard gauge and “DBfied”.

DTG or at least their predecessors are no stranger to this as TSC…
Seebergbahn was based on the BLS around Spiez and Interlaken but given a DB setting.
Both instances of Phorum Peninsula used the Isle Of Portland in Dorset as geographical location.

 

I'd be ok with de-branded, but only if all possible efforts to have it branded and licensed were made prior, and if it was a much requested loco etc. I think ones where licensing is possible should be prioritised.
I don't think I'd be happy with a completely fictional livery.
I don't think I'd be happy with an incorrectly licensed/liveried train either tbh.
I think in the latter 2 cases, I'd rather just a factory liveried train (for example Hitachi 80x units are just grey by default when they are testing usually).

Not personally interested in semi-fictional routes.

 

I have a similar example flying around my head for a while. NationalExpress really doesn't seem to like their RRX logos and/or liveries depicted in simulators (atleast to my understanding), as Train Planet receiced a Cease & Desist from them. If a route around Cologne would ever come to TSW where a Desiro HC is almost mandatory, one of the only few options are to fictionally use a DB Regio branded one as a probably permanent substitute solution.

 

For me I think the class of train is more important than the livery, I would buy a train I found interesting regardless of whether the livery was debranded, fictional or wrong

I think semi-fictional routes could be interesting as long as they take full advantage of the freedom, for example having branch lines, different types of services, industry and freight, variety of interesting scenery, etc. A semi-fictional route that was just a straight line with only passenger services probably wouldn't be very interesting

I think the best use of semi-fictional routes would be routes where getting detailed and accurate information would be difficult/impossible, for example historical routes set in the 19th or early 20th century, subways, etc

 

Yeah

No

Not sure, I guess I’d have to see in a case by case situation

No, I’ll only go for the realistic routes

 

Debranded liveries, I have multiple times been very vocal in supporting them if licensing is unavailable.

Fictional brandings I am okay with to a certain point. In the early privatisation era there were several freight TOCs which had simply put their logos over the old Railfreight sectorised grey livery, Freightliner and Mainline spring to mind here. I would personally be perfectly okay if we got a fictional branding in a context such as this, and to be quite honest, this isn't too unlike what many other games both railway and not are already doing - real livery, fictional company. In some cases, this may even be a viable alternative to just having the train be there in plain colours. But I get the impression that the question was more in reference to a fully fictional livery and branding akin to what we got with the 484, and on that front it's a hard no from me.

Now a train carrying branding it never wore... to be honest, I wouldn't actually have that big of a problem with it. It might not have happened yet don't get me wrong, but feasibly one day DB could decide to acquire a Class 70. A Class 68 could be leased out to Europhoenix or ROG. But then in this case it is actually possible that TOCs might not actually want this to be done, not that I can really think of why that might be the case.

Fictional routes, also pretty okay with me if they're built really well. A good example, my absolute favourite route to play with in Trainz is called Duchy Days. It's entirely fictional but it is built really authentically and with great detail, set in the southwest in the 1980s with a varied main line, a short heritage railway, multiple different branches for both passenger services and quarry freight traffic, a major depot at one end. When it is done to that degree, where the gameplay opportunities are immense and the detail is to such a level that you could honestly believe it to be a place that really exists, I think such a route could genuinely become one of the best on offer.

 

For fictional liveries, it depends.

If they've fought tooth and nail for them, yes. If they just decided not to try, then no.

 

100% my thoughts too. My favourite part of the sim is the realism aspect

 

I'm quite sure DTG's stance is to get the licences.
They got "screwed" over by the WCML, so they mad both the licensed and unlicensed content.
You would only do that if there is a chance to obtain the license afterall.
And they are still trying to fix that.

3rd parties on the otherhand are just free to do what they please
I know that realism is key, but who are the ones that will know?

 

I'm ok with debranded routes. I mean, look at Chicagoland. The only reason we dont have Metra is because of branding when all the seeds for it is already in the game.

 

They also now have the keys to build the ultimate fictional route - Isle Of Sodor (I’ll get my coat).

 

For fictional liveries yes if they tried and failed and it meant not releasing the loco because of it ,or just go ahead and build the route without the correct livery just near as possible the real look .
As for routes yes as long as they then use full artistic licence to build a scenic, busy route with plenty of variety in passenger and freight traffic .
Also wouldn't mind if they made a real world route that has very little traffic in real life ,but just made a more interesting timetable for it.

 

Debranded liveries I have no issue with.

Fictional routes, semi or complete I have zero interest in. Holiday Express DLC was a fun novelty as it was clearly based on when we had train sets as children but I won't purchase anymore.

 

But that's exactly what i was not talking about regarding fictional routes. I mean "realistic" routes, which just do not exist irl, but *could*.

 

Ah ok my bad.

But yeah those routes are also a no from me, unless it was a closed route that was done as a what if, so for example Nottingham Victoria to Rugby Central on the old GCR but done in the Modern day.

 

i am not against fictional routes so long as it is sold and advertised as that
and has its own place in the game menu not just under routes but under a new section named fictional

 

Not the GC but I believe someone made a layout based on Towcester on the old SMJ but in BR Blue days. I could definitely go for that, nice little network Olney and Blisworth to Banbury and Stratford On Avon. Class 31's or 25's on the Stratford trains and 2 car Class 105's on the Banbury line. Or ultra modern, 158's from Blisworth to Stratford and 153 from Olney to Banbury.

 

Yeah that would get my money for sure.

Last year I went to an event at the Great Central Railway and they had their two 153s running and someone did the old regional railways window stickers as a "what if", it was a nice touch and something I'd like to see replicated.

 

I think a what if version of HS1 and the Eurotunnel would be cool, where ICE and TGV trains for example ran to St Pancras. Then the licensing issues with Eurostar can be avoided

 

I'm okay with entirely fictional routes and locos too.
Thomas is fictional. Why not have the whole island of Sodor while we're at it?
It's not "incorrect" if it's "accurate" in the lore.
Or the Hogwarts Express.
Or the made up lands they have in Derail Valley or Railroads Online.
Give it a story and stick to it and it's just as good as the "real world" since in the end we're not driving IN the real world, we're still sitting at out TV/Computer screen pretending in a chair anyway.

 

It reminds me of this one route that exists on Trainz based on the line from Cambridge to Huntingdon. In reality it was closed years ago, part of it was pulled up while part of it was left overgrown until it was eventually rebuilt as the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway. But this Trainz route remade the line as though it were instead reinstated as a railway, set in the modern day with refurbished stations and OHLE installed, ending at a new small terminus directly beside the Huntingdon ECML station.

 

Really cool to see that my question has turned into a discussion. One important part of that which I haven't seen mentioned here is getting the railroads' blessing to use unbranded trains. I definitely would not want DTG to sabotage present or future relationships.

For myself, I'm fine with unbranded trains and fictional liveries, but fictional branding seems a step too far away. Routewise, completely fictional routes like Holiday Express or Thomas are fun and fine, but I wouldn't be in favor of realistic fictional routes as a substitute for a real one. For example, if an entirely fictional passenger route was created for Chicago in the absence of CTA or Metra licensing, I'd have zero interest.

 

What if it was a fictional place called "Windy City" and just happened to be superficially similar to a certain midwest location?

 

Not sure if I would wanna give money to wizarding world and the author of this universe.

I keep thinking of fictional TSC routes like IKB v3 reloaded or Projekt roter Knopf, which were great routes although fictional. And I'd love to see a 3rd party doing that for TSW. Honstely, I hope DTG continues with real routes, but if it's a 3rd party I wouldn't mind that.

 

The Hogwarts Express runs from London to somewhere in the Scottish Highlands so that's a bit outwith Dovetail's range methinks

I'd say make the West Highland Line extension and have the Jacobite with a fictional 'Hogwarts Express' variant/journey to attract that fanbase to the route/game, a similar idea to the Thomas pack, - with a Picture-taking scenario at Glenfinnan included, of course!

 

RRX has nothing to do with National Express, the Train and livery is not owned by the Company

 

I’ve been re-reading the Harry Potter books and the Hogwarts Express journey is a little enigmatic. Platform 9 3/4 is concealed from “Muggles” at Kings Cross but it’s most unclear whether on departure the train emerges on to the national rail network or has its own infrastructure. The journey is described as being very long with references to the scenery becoming wilder as the train progress's north but the only other station mentioned is Hogs Meade. No junctions or passing other trains en route. Which is at odds with the “Night Bus” which seems capable of getting to its destinations much quicker than Muggle equivalents.

It also needs to be borne in mind that the Hogwarts Express cannot rely on any electrical components as according to the lore these will not function where this is a strong magical aura. Which is why Hogwarts couldn’t call in the RAF or other military to assist in the last battle as none of their equipment would have worked.

So it would certainly be an interesting one to figure out. Also the timetable would be very sparse as from what I can glean the HE only ran a few times a year, usually at the start of the autumn term and end of the summer term.

 

Yeah that would be a straight no as well for that reason (regarding Hogwarts express)

 

What is this then?

 

It’s just the Branding, Same with the Flirt 3 XL from Abellio before and now DB
The Train is owned by VRR

 

Hey, sorry, can you make that image any larger please? Can't read what it's saying.

 

While the google AI is of course not the best source in the world, he is right. RRX is actually a branding owned by the state of NRW. NX is just the TOC, which is carrying out the operations.

 

I wouldn't mind trains without branding ( for instance a Metra train which was just all silver- painted with locos in, say, red, white and blue livery.

But I would have zero interest in a fictional Metra route because there would be no need to make one up. At least two or three routes are owned by BNSF or UP.

It's been done, albeit by a 3rd party ( The Racetrack ).

 

Personal opinion, but fictitious routes or branding could be useful to explore plausible future (real) routes, former routes that no longer exist, or generally an alternate timeline of an operator..

If I had the tools, I’d be making a fictional but plausible metro system in my home city. I’d use my own branding, that I believe would make sense in this place, but use existing rolling stock. The route would be far from reality, but to me it would real. A ‘what if’ in TSW form.

Imagine having the chance to make the Woodhead Route, but as what it would be like today? Would it still be wired.. would there be long-distance services. How would a post-beaching survival rationalisation have affected the line..

To me, fictional is an opportunity to explore the ‘what ifs’ of our railways pas, present and future!

 

It’s a somewhat firm “no” from me for anything fictional/de-branded. I could accept compromises with branding if no other option exists (based on the recent TSC release, the Milwaukee Road branding seems problematic, but I’d love to have their electrified routes in TSW) but if the livery itself also needs to be fictional on top, I think I’m probably out again. Fictional routes are a hard pass for me. Not really interested in anything that has no actual prototype.

 

Not a fan of debranded liveries. Something just looks odd when there's a logo missing, even when I do not know the trains in real life.

Not a fan of purely fictional routes either, but I'm going to make an exception for real route proposals, like TSCs North Somerset Railway add-on and TSCs Corris Railway including a realistic proposed extension. Those are totally fine in my opinion.

 

As well as fictional railways, you could build railways that were proposed but never built.

For example, there were many proposals over the years for a branch off the Kyle Line at Garve down to Ullapool. Or the Paddy Waddell Railway from Glaisdale on the Whitby Line across to the Teeside industrial area. On a smaller scale there was the proposed Norhern Heights extension to the Northern Line which was scuppered by WWII then post war austerity.

 

Depends how much of a difference the logos or patterns that are locked behind licencing (like the lines flowing across the train on the fgw livery) make to the appearance

No

No

 

Exactly the possibility that ‘fictional’ or ‘debranded’ should explore.

There’s plenty of planned routes, or routes that could have been saved from Beeching, and I’d love to see someone more technically gifted than me take a punt at building something like that.

For example, the GCR, but modern day. Between Aylesbury, Rugby, Leicester and Nottingham.. what stations would still exist, would it be Turbostar DMU’s or something else? Would intermodal freight use that route? Is there a token ‘parkway’ station somewhere?

 

Why get fictional when there are still tons of interesting (also operational wise) realistic routes which have never seen the light of day? It just doesn't make any sense.
Also applies to the trains/liveries/branding.

As you can see, not a fan of fictional/unrealistic stuff.

 

Rebranded trains, if it means we can get routes we wouldn’t otherwise? Absolutely.

Fictional routes? No thank you. Why bother with fictional routes when there are so many good real ones out there waiting to be done?

 

Train Sim Alternate Earth?

 

Im one that isnt a fan of fictional or unbranded liveries, at least for the main operator of locomotives and rolling stock (If applicable) Like Class 1's in the US.

The only exception to this rule I like is how DTG made themselves like a leaser on US content for freight cars, where they stand in with DTGX cars, but still painted like their original counterparts (Like TTX or GATX)

I do think DTG should expand on this for locos of industrial served locations that have a leased or self owned locomotive, with a paint scheme designed around the DTGX label. Example would of been on Cajon Pass where the Cement plant in Victorville or the Grain Elevator in San Bernardino had a fictional leased DTGX SD40-2 do unloading operations for these locations after exchanging cars with BNSF trains, would of made operations more interesting.

 

In the case of Japanese routes, although I would prefer them to secure JR licensing so we could get the JR insignia's on trains, I understand that is a big ask and unlikely to happen, and in their case I don't mind unbranded stock.

The main reasoning is: JR trains have very simple schemes and minimal branding in general. EMUs/DMUs from back in the days of the JNR tend to have super simple color schemes, with several being one solid color with no logos Pictured below are older 115-series EMUs which debuted under the Japan National Railway in 1968, and following is the Kiha 40 DMU, also a JNR unit still in active service.



Of course, there are more colorful schemes, but they are also simple with no branding:


And modern stock, such as EMUs run by JR West and East, while they have more branding, are very minimal and typcially more drab.




As long as the units are available in the livery creator: JR's logo is very easy to recreate and I make it all the time for fictional liveries.

 

I’m not a fan of totally fictional routes and think it’s a slippery slope.
Theres thousands of miles of railway across the core countries alone which have never been modelled in a train sim (which will never happen), so until that’s exhausted I don’t see the need of them.

It’s not massive step from fictional routes to fictional locos and before anyone asks I don’t want to see them in the game either. Fictional liveries are bad enough (although I can understand the need of these more)

 

I'm fine with real routes, real trains in correct colors but without the logo. No fictional routes or train colors please, hower I can live with the way Rivet did it with Island Line 2022.

The German routes are now DB red only, which is not realistic anymore nowadays. Also we're getting the same trains over and over again, for example the same doppelstocks coaches and BR423. I like to see different trains like Stadlers in different liveries, the newer IC doppelstock and other newer or older trains not in game right now. To much routes have the same recycled trains, what doesn't make those routes very attractive to buy.

Also the BR642 on Koln - Aachen is not realistic at all and especially not with the Westfrankenbahn livery. It would be nice to see the real Talent here with correct livery as DLC.

 

Wcml over shap the carpet wrong sign is so right they should be carpet wrong .

 

Woodhead what-if route please

What if being, what if Hope Valley got the axe instead of Woodhead

Off the top of my head beyond the obvious Hadfield onward being open, Sheffield Victoria would likely have remained open, even more pylons would be on top of the pennines, and the full M67 would have been built

 

Just came back from posting a (slightly) derogatory comment on the TSW FB feed about the Harlem Line offering some sort of “grand tour” of NYC. That got me thinking perhaps the way round the licensing/access and basically non co-operation of the Transit Authority about doing anything NYC Subway is to move the chosen line or part of the system into a fictional location. Well Liberty City is already taken by Rockstar, unless DTG cough up £500k to sub licence the name, but it can’t be beyond the wit of the company to come up with something similar so that everyone recognises the locations but MTA can’t get all sulky or seek and desist.