First of all, I worked for LTS Rail (which became C2C) for 7 years so the network has a special place in my heart. Aside from that it is an end-to-end passenger network, with a variety of services for me it's the variety of scenery that makes it such a special line. You have the best/closest view on the railway network of the square-mile towers of the City of London on approach to Fenchurch Street (and a glimpse of Tower Bridge & the Tower of London) with views of Docklands between Limehouse and Bow curve, the route takes you through a mixture of Georgian streets interspersed with 60's apartment blocks, then Victorian East London, then 1930s suburban London. The older Tilbury route is a mix of marshland, light industry, heavy industry with a spur to the Thames Gateway freightliner depot. The newer route goes though London's largest council estate, tree-lined parks and managed wild areas, climbing uphill (alongside the District Line) through Havering, past the only surviving windmill in Greater London to Upminster where London ends and the countryside starts. Then we have the brutalist Laindon estate, the new town of Basildon after which the two lines come back together at Pitsea we have rolling hills, Hadleigh Castle then the famous cockle sheds at Leigh-on-Sea, the short seawall section along the tidal Thames Estuary then the urban spread of Southend and luxurious housing around Thorpe Bay. Between the two main lines there's the surprisingly rural branch between Upminster and Grays. You've also got the huge Lakeside shopping centre along that branch too. I honestly don't think there's another line that represents so many quintessentially British landscapes. The only thing missing is mountains. Moving away from the scenery, there are three ways of getting from one end of the line to the other, intensive and varied peak services, two large traction depots (3 if you include TfL's Upminster Depot), what's left of Ripple Lane yard, running alongside HS1, the aforementioned Freightliner terminal, where, as mentioned above, you can take a freight train from next to the Sea to Milton Keynes using the route hopping function and the possibility of letting Rivet's "D stock" stretch it's legs (well, wheels) on the 13 mile surface section of the District Line between Bromley-By-Bow and Upminster Depot. Finally there's the rolling stock. Currently it has the Class 357 Electrostar and a small fleet of Class 720 Aventras. If it's not set in the modern era then we have the possibility of seeing some classic slam-door and Mk3 EMU stock; Classes 302,305,308,310,312 and 317 have all featured there in the last 35 years. There has never been a Slam-door AC (and therefore OHL) EMU in TSC let alone TSW. It could also feature the first Mk3 derived EMU (Class 317) in TSW. Guard mode in a slam-door would be very involved, ringing the bell in the hope that nobody is about to try to board a departing train. Up front and you'd be running on yellows west of Barking in the peaks. Sorry if that turned into a essay but I'm a passionate advocate for a line that's never featured in a railway simulation before.
I still think the GWR license will play into it (or possibly the mid year DTG route). If I'm thinking from a sales perspective, I'd have to say ECML: Kings Cross to Peterborough would be one that says "headline". Add in the Moorgate branch too. You've got similar to last years WCMLS a wide variety of service patterns from fast to stoppers. Then with the route hopping you've got the route basically from Kings Cross to Doncaster. Add in a certain Class 91 as the deluxe loco and that makes it day 1 for a lot of people.
While I've advocated for the LTS/C2C, having watched this LNER video earlier today the 124 mile Newcastle to Edinburgh section of the ECML would make a superb and challenging DLC. Lots of gradients and speed restricted sections along with 125 mph running in the LNER, TPE and/or Lumo IETs. 385s doing the stoppers between Berwick and Edinburgh, Northern 158s doing the Newcastle to Morpeth stoppers and maybe a brand new Class 220/221 Cross Country Voyager would be a useful addition for other routes too. It would be an ideal opportunity to introduce an additional DLC of the Class 91 Mk4 set. I appreciate they don't go north of York these days but I really don't think anyone would protest if there were a few services like The Flying Scotsman in the Timetable and it would layer very nicely on to the Doncaster to Peterborough section. Anyway, here's the cab ride video from the good people at LNER.
Nice read! ironically you just perfectly outlined the reasons why this network was never made for TS Classic and why no one will do it for TSW. It´s too much work with the diverse scenery, the different branches and the tube/DLR. Don´t get me wrong, it would be awesome and I would buy it first day regardless if someone made it for TSC or TSW. But even if someone made the full thing, where would the logical ending point for the district line be? This is one of the many complicated questions. Bromley by Bow? Mile End? Whitechapel? Aldgate?
Frustratingly someone has made it for TSC but won't release it until there's proper rolling stock made for it. It's been finished for a while now. In fact he made it with Kuju assets then totally rebuilt it to more modern standards, it's been collecting dust for at least a couple of years now. As for TSW I think it would be an ambitious product, but I would hope the good people at DTG are ambitious because if they're not, lots of popular, busy sections of the UK's network will never appear in TSW. Hopefully improvements and optimisations are coming in TSW6 that make busier, longer routes more viable. Sections from East Ham Depot to Rainham have already been made for TSW and appear in the Suffergette Line and South Eastern Express. The busiest and largest station on the line is Barking and that's already made for TSW. I think it's perfectly possible, maybe it needs to be a third party developer with a more relaxed release schedule or a collaborative release. As for the District Line, it's not the point of the release, if the surface section were made driveable it would only be Bromley-by-Bow eastward. Personally, I'd be fine if it was AI only if it was a choice between LTS happening or not. Likewise the DLR between Limehouse and Tower Gateway, AI only.
That is a shame..It would be good to see some more modern stock in TSC just for this, and I don't think all developers have given up on the old girl yet as from recent personal experience TSC still has a lot to offer to the Trainsim enthusiast that TSW just cant scratch!
You're spot on about TSC. The GEML got an excellent modernisation from the team at ATS with more to come. There's the extension from Ipswich to Norwich to come and they are also working on an AI Class 720, though Alan has previously said that making a driveable Aventra is "on their list". While I only dip into TSC occasionally these days, it's the updated GEML, Kings Cross to Kings Lynn and Wherry Lines routes that I drive the most. The LTS in TSC would be one of those routes that I'd be happy to go back and forth in Quick Drive. I'd probably do the same for GEML but there's no modern Quick Drive for that yet, possibly because of the lack of a realistic Renatus Class 321 or the 720.
I am sure there's a mountain close to the Dartford Crossing on the Essex side on SEHS when you look north haha?
Joking aside, I forgot to include the famous landmarks of the Dartford Crossing and Tilbury Fort. Not to mention, Benfleet where I went on my first date and East Tilbury Up platform where I kissed my first ever girlfriend for the first time. I believe there's a plaque there celebrating that latter one.
In the wake of the XC License news, it looks odds on that both XC and GWR will feature soon together (Dawlish pls). The rumour that 150’s are getting ‘new’ sounds also lends to the idea that the Riviera Line could be coming, especially with the way the core route + loco dlc package works.. Main Route comes with new GWR 80X (bi-mode), GWE HST in Castle Sets, GWR 150’s and the 66. Loco DLC comes with the XC 22X (could both happen?). Route being Exeter to Plymouth, Paignton and Exmouth. Pretty please!
Maybe we should have a west coast mainline from Chester to Holyhead like in tsw classic. We have not had a route like that before. Maybe have it with arriva or tfw and avanti. (License permitting) would be nice.
Whilst I am reluctant to assume for 100% certainty that a Voyager is coming with tsw6 in some way, (when I asked about the class 20 in the nuclear pack being unbranded the response from Adam from Skyhook was that the DRS license only applied to the 66, and something similar could play where the xc license is only for the 170), I do think it makes it more likely for a Voyager to come since xc are clearly on board with tsw. (Plus if you're going to license one unit, you may as well try for both right) Plus I think it makes a lot a sense actually. Dawlish area has been requested in the suggestions section a few times, plus the gwr stock wouldn't require much work (800/802 are similar to 801, 150s are already in the game and just need to be converted to gwr). This could explain why the new 150 sounds are taking so long, they're actually for this (and will then be added to the tfw one too). Plus it would probably have class 43 sets layer from gwe, cross promoting this route and gwe's remaster
I feel we will be waiting a long time to see this route in TSW. If ever. If it ever does I hope they acknowledge your moment in time, at East Tilbury
I tend to agree. It'll take a lot of work to make the LTS, lots of stations, lots of trackside assets, lots to go wrong with a very complex timetable. I think it will happen one day but I think we'll see the GEML before the LTS. GEML southern portion to Ipswich is 64 miles' long, LTS amounts to 78 miles including branches. GEML to Ipswich is 23 stations (including surface TfL stations), LTS would need 40 stations modeled (including surface TfL stations).
I would really love to see the GEML, all the way to Ipswich, with the Felixstowe branch too, for freight. But I suspect a TSW version would be cut off at Colchester instead, and we'll only end up with the short branch to Colchester Town as an 'extra' at best, which would be a bit meh, but I'd be happy to have it. Anything short of Colchester would be a massive let down for me. Though I wouldn't expect it until GA goes into GBR hands, so... core route for TSW7 maybe My expectation this time around is something GWR.
Maybe I'm overthinking things, but if people look towards the end of last nights live stream when JD asks Matt "what is there to look forward to in TSW6?", Matt answers with "Great, Great, things " With what seemed like an emphasis on the word 'Great', sort of leaning into the theory of a Western Region based route and with the renewal of the GWR licence. Add to that the acquisition of the XC licence... I'm also starting to suspect GWR content as the flagship content for this years UK content. Am I overthinking things, or seeing things that aren't there? Maybe. But I'd be interested to see what others think about that part of the road map too.
I do wonder if the Class 57 + Mk3 sleepers for the Night Riviera might be one of the new loco addons? Especially if one of the new routes is set down in the South West somewhere. It would layer on the route but not be absolutely vital in the same way a core train would be (such as an 80X or a 22X), plus it could then layer some services onto the GWE remaster, which is now coming post-TSW6 release. It was said in the remaster thread that there were still a few surprises to come - could that be one of them?
I wonder if something like Bristol to Cardiff would be more likely, Cardiff station is already built, and XC 170s run there, so other than the 800s most of the rolling stock is available
With a Duisburg-Arnhem route we would probably get a Flirt 3 in Vias livery and with Deventer-Osnabrück in westfalenbahn livery. Also I doubt that the NS flirt would be included with either route since it would only appear at Arnhem and on the first km untill they split off towards Zutphen and they also never go to Deventer. Same for the ICNG the closest it gets to either route is Amersfoort which is still 40/50 km from either route. Also NS uses Flirt 3 not 2. I would love to have the routes you named in game
Anyhow although most likely “Great” means Great Western there are other possibilities on the UK network. In a more whimsical moment last night I even reflected that DTG might be going retro and doing all or part of the Great North Of Scotland network north of Aberdeen and Elgin. All those lovely branches and the run along the coast, Banff, Buckie, MacDuff etc. Traction would be the Class 26 and a Cravens DMU. However if it is GWR then I revisit my previous speculation of possible routes… 1. Riviera Line Exeter to Paignton. Think this has to be the odds on favourite even if we ignore the unsubstantiated statements about Rivet earlier in the thread. 2. Swindon to Bristol TM via Box and Bristol Parkway. I still feel this is a strong contender for reasons I stated in another thread. 3. Newport or Cardiff to Swansea. This could sit side by side with the TfW licence to layer in the service. 4. North Cotswold Oxford to Worcester, Malvern or even Hereford. A lovely scenic run but not quite busy enough for a core route, perhaps. 5. Continuation of the existing GWE from Reading to Oxford and Swindon. 6. Despite the rebuttals the remastered version of GWE extended to Oxford and adding the Thames Valley passenger branches (excluding Heathrow). 7. East Cornwall, Plymouth to Par including the Gunnislake and Looe Branches.
I dreamt that night that DTG did a teaser image that was clearly near Exeter St Davids station, so that might be significant. I also grew up there so that may have been a factor, but you be the judge.
I keep wondering about “Greatest Gathering”, but there’s way too much rolling stock missing for that
Reading through various threads, I think most people think it’ll be the Rivera line, which I’ll be absolutely delighted if it is, finally getting something on my wishlist. But this time last year, what was the main speculation for the core route? Was it WCMLS and the community got it right then?
Yeah, but DTG haven't done a backdated route in years, and definitely don't seem interested in doing one for the core. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but my standards for backdated routes haved been raised by JT somewhat
….and whichever route it is you will buy it and probably get it refunded almost instantly complaining about something or other…
Also, the original NTP is still in dire need of other classes to fill out the timetable such as Class 25, 123/124 & 128. Perhaps even the Class 141. Maybe if it ever sees a remaster.
I thought it was just me that saw this as subtle hinting. Like you said, could be reading too much into it.
Maybe not Greater Anglia (although the TOC finishes in October), but possibly "First Great Eastern". Though I've convinced myself a 1990s version from Just Trains with 86s (plus DBSOs and Mk2s with a Mk1 buffet) is more likely. "Expect the unexpected" say DTG. I think the "unexpected" will be a much longer mainline than we've been used to with GWR being favourite. I also note that the Birmingham Cross-city 170s are branded which may hint at an agreement between DTG and West Midlands Rail Co. If that is the case then maybe a properly branded WCML update with 730s (including a new layer on Cross-City) could be one of the additional surprises.
One possibility which did flicker across my mind was Bristol to Birmingham, actually. Part of it already exists with BCC and would allow stock from at least three TOC’s, GWR, TfW and XC to feature. Obviously would need 220 and 221 Voyagers but the DTG denial could be misdirection. GWR local services could be covered by the 166, leaving what to do about the Hitachi Knotweed (or Cucumber) operated services. TfW between Cheltenham and Gloucester layered in with the 150 and/or 153 from CCN. Though if Rivet are doing it, Bristol to Gloucester or Cheltenham probably more likely but in which case it should include the Severn Beach Line and the freight only line from Hallen Marsh across to Bristol Parkway.
Never tried that but I did drive the old MSTS version which, while set back in late steam days and took some liberties as tended to be dictated by MSTS track geometry, even using UK Finescale, was a superb piece of work. The one thing I forgot to mention in my musing is that you would need to include the WMR services from Bromsgrove and Redditch too, which does duplicate BCC somewhat.
The best candidates would be the Riviera, Cornish Main Line (another section towards Plymouth), Cotswold (Oxford-Worcester), a "Severn Triangle" (Gloucester-Bristol-Newport-Gloucester), or my favorite, the South Wales Main Line (Bristol-Cardiff/Cardiff-Swansea)! A new section of the GWML cannot be ruled out either! My opinion, of course.
