What Exactly Is Wrong With The Current Steam Physics?

I remember DTG binning off steam locomotive development because the physics were supposedly wrong. The only steamer I've driven in game is the Flying Scotsman, and it feels almost too easy to drive. Does anyone know what the core problem with the physics is?

 

Let’s start with no coal or water consumption. No visible change in boiler water level or fire mass or even simulated for that matter. Running at 75% cutoff on full regulator other than immediately pulling away would destroy the fire. Would not start wheelslipping if more than 10% regulator or start wheelslip at high speeds. Sound does not deteriorate into a muffled roar above 30 MPH.

I’m sure others will be along to flesh that out.

 

To all intents and purposes there are no steam physics. It's not really possible to give a list of what's wrong as nothing is right.

 

Vern you pretty much covered it.

 

That's not exactly true. All of that is actually simulated, but some things are intentionally turned off by DTG, because whole system was never finished properly.

Water levels in boiler and tender are simulated, but boiler is set up to always have constant level, no matter what.
Coal is being consumed and it's amount in the tender is even animated, but you cannot see it unless you run for many hours, because you always have full tender at the start of the game.

The fire itself is also at least somewhat simulated -- it has separate numbers for total amount of coal and amount of burning coal, and possibly temperature of the fire too (I might be wrong on the latter). Draft is also simulated.
You cannot really see the fire going out when playing, because fireman has near infinite speed with which he loads coal. Basically, he can load hundreds of kilograms of coal a second, so every time you open firebox door, your fire immediately gets fully replenished up to a predetermined high amount.

Besides, there's a bunch of different failure conditions. The easiest one to get is, of course, fire dying, which can be achieved by never opening the firebox door. But there are others too, for example, you can melt fusible plugs if water level gets too low, and it works, if you remove automation of water levels in the boiler.

There's a mod that fixes a lot of these problems for 4f and Scotsman. It turns off all of the automation of water level, adds controls for injectors, turns fireman into a normal human, who can only scoop 5 kg of coal every couple of seconds, allows you to see amounts of coal and water both on tender and in the boiler/firebox, and adds some other quality of life stuff.

The mod can be found here: https://www.trainsimcommunity.com/m...-steam-improvements-flying-scotsman-fowler-4f

It doesn't magically make simulation perfect, since each part can still be set up incorrectly (like rates of coal/water usage etc.), but it makes driving 4F and Scotsman a much nicer experience.

 

One of the devs posted this on Discord a few years ago:

The steam simulation apparently works (sort of) but gets more inaccurate the faster the train goes, and instead of fixing it DTG just scrapped all development instead

There doesn't seem to be any reason why they disabled manual injector control, water consumption or the HUD showing coal and water levels when it was all already implemented

 

Cheers for all the responses - I remember when Dovetail officially binned steam simulation I got the feeling that they did so because it would be extremely difficult and complex to get it right, but the problems listed seem
fixable.

 

They also just don’t like money hence why they gave up

 

I would be quite happy if they just got it working to basic TSC level, not necessarily Bossman, Smokebox or the guys who did the NZ locos where you even have to control the lube oil feed, standard.

But from that Discord quote it seems that Simugraph is simply incapable of being adapted to deal with steam physics at higher speeds. Though that said, should not prevent giving us a nice little industrial steam network to play with, saddle tanks hauling iron ore around Corby or coal around Ashington in Northumbria at no more than 25 MPH. Or a Pannier/Prairie tank on Maerdy as in TSC. And if low speeds are fine, what’s stopping the Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland or any other Welsh NG route being done, where the design speed of the locos is no more than 25 or 30 MPH max. In some cases oil firing might make the fuel and heat transfer physics easier too.

 

The thing that annoys me the most is that there probably won't be anymore steam locos which is a real shame as they're just beautiful.
As OldVern said an industrial route might be good for a re-introduction of steam locomotives. One that I'd like to see is the Cromford and High Peak railway.

 

I don't think that many people are interested in steam. Personally, I definitely won't buy it. If you make add-ons expensive for fans, they won't buy them again to cover the costs. A vicious circle...

 

https://www.a1steam.com/prince-of-wales/about-prince-of-wales/the-build-so-far/construction-so-far
This is mostly funded by steam fans but apparently “people not that many have interest in steam”

also Heritage railways, rail tours and other steam appearances sell out a lot of the time because of steam so I doubt it’s lack of interest.

also TSC sells hella lot of them which shows people like them enough for them to keep making more

 

Not to mention if you want a UK narrow gauge railway, steam traction is pretty much mandatory.

 

It could be the engine. I think DTG or a third party could raise funds for the rolling stock. Let's say it costs £10,000 to get the steam working. Some set of content will be given, be it physics rework, additional scenarios, etc. I don’t see any other way to revive steam, since the content is very specific.

 

https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/home They also made this, so ain’t no one time thing for one engine.

I honestly believe the community would fund new steam physics, specially if they do it by selling a set of addons like 3 different ranks of support, rank one could be £5 older style reskins rolling stock, rank 2 £10 could be a tank engine without the new physics but will be given after, rank 3 a small scale route to make more interest.

this is kinda similar to the charity events some games have where you buy something to give support, doing it this way also means people without bank cards/ credit cards can give money for it via gift cards etc on the said platforms

 

We're in the same boat. American freight is also effectively dead in the game. And I get the feeling that there's a chance the upcoming Santa Fe package won't sell well, for a sequel to happen. I'd like to be wrong, but I need a plan B so as not to lose this content completely.

 

Yeah,

well I’m not overly a fan of Santa stuff I will still probably pick up the pack at some point since I do love us freight

 

I never knew that mod existed! I'm going to download it and try it out right now.

Honestly, even if you're restricted to not going above 35-50mph there's quite a lot of lines that could provide interesting experiences without breaching that limit. I don't think it limits you to only doing "small shunting locos". In addition, it doesn't sound like an insurmountable problem to fix, or at least bodge together something that gets acceptable results, though of course I don't have access to the code and can't say anything definitively.
Also, if you're the same mjckp on trainsimcommunity, do you have any plans to update the mod to support the Jubilee and 8F, or is that not possible?

 

HIS does have some sort of a loyal fan base that buys up their stuff no matter the quality, and alot of them have been waiting for them to release their stuff. Given most of the group are older who are already most likely past retirement age, they may not be too fussed on fiances as a whole.

 

I don't really agree with the sentiment that 'Not many people are interested in steam', by the same standard people weren't interested in the 'BR era' content according to DTG, for them to continue creating it in DLC... And just look what happened, JT made quite the impression with players with their BPO and WCMOS DLCs. Both of which are now considered some of the best content in TSW, which just goes to show it depends who is developing DLC and how much effort and long term thinking goes into it.

I think steam could be really appealing to players and possibly draw in new players, as it is quite charming and also takes some skills to be able to learn how to drive a steam locomotive. It just depends who is willing to put long term time plan and effort into such a project to make it take off and succeed.

The actual physics are a sad situation, and seem to be completely abandoned with no hope of a remedy, and I can't see that situation changing any time soon. All steam locomotives in the game are incredibly well modelled, Flying Scotsman being an absolute beauty too. Peak Forest seemed to be a last ditch attempt by DTG to draw in a player base for steam and to try continue its development, and because it didn't sell as well as expected, steam content was completely dropped and forgotten about along with the accompanying physics which seemed to be just to much of a headache for DTG to remedy.

Unless a third party was willing to step in an remedy the physics I don't think there is much chance of the physics and steam in general ever making a comeback to the game.

 

Thats not the reason, the reason is that Steam and BR era don't sell as much as modern stuff.

For all we know it could sell less by 5%, the statement they have made is still true no one has actually given numbers.

But if they are hitting towards 18-28 year olds very little of them would have any nostalgic memories of that time and would want to drive what they see now or growing up.

Remember they are after new players and out to make the most money they can so even if steam sells less by 2% they are still going to sell what they can the most units.

I would be curious to see sales numbers between WCMLoS and say the Dutch route. But no one here has seen these numbers so no one really knows except DTG.

And yes there are alot of us on these forums that would like to see it but we are far from being a majority.

 

I would argue nostalgia has very little to do with the appeal, it's actually novelty more than anything, and novelty doesn't diminish with age. If it was nostalgia I would argue many steam ops would've been a dead concept by now. Just to put in perspective, Ed Dickens Jr. was born three years after the last Big Boy's were off the roster, and double that for the last time they actually ran a train.

I feel like people forget most of the "old farts" running heritage equipment are already a generation removed from those who ran them in regular service. In the same way that I tend to forget that my parents don't remember a world without The Beatles. Meanwhile the "young" crowd who are taking over now are two generations removed, probably even a few third gen guys working on them by now.

Something that also supports this is the fact what sort of ops get the crowds. Some steam ops did still exist in the 60's & 70's, however those are mostly tiny shunting ops. Yet any sort of tiny 2-8-0 or 0-6-0 shunter that runs on a local tourist never really gets that much attention in the grand scheme, even though that should be the stuff most people actually remember. It's always bigger main-line engines like NKP 765, N&W 611, Reading 2101, or indeed UP 4014.

Furthermore it doesn't really matter where they go, all of those engines will draw crowds even if they aren't on "home-turf". Big Boy in particular I feel like actually gets its smallest crowds in Wyoming & Utah, despite ironically being the only places where they would've actually been regular sights. And don't get me started on CP 2816's infamous visit to Mexico, the turn outs were completely insane for that, for better or worse.

 

Yes everyone brings up heritage railways to justify the popularity of steam.

What percentage of these people attending even play video games? And of those how many actually play TSW. How many people who go to F1 races actually play F1 video games. Seeing the real thing is way more interesting than playing on a video game.

And talking with Steam loco restorations and heritage railways at the Greatest Gathering contradict your statements, they are desperatly looking for more people with interest to carry it on, attendance was two fold 15 years ago to now.

Its a mute point though because that has no bearing on sales figures for a video game. That is the arguement that is ongoing.

My point is no one actually knows what the figures are so all we have to go buy is what DTG have said "Mordern sells better than older stock."

For all we know that means a modern route could sell 2 more units than Steam.

But DTG are going to go after what they feel will make them the most sales.

And it seems to be working for them as profits are double and player base keeps increasing with every iteration.

 

At certain age brackets almost all of them, just ask yourself for a example how many of the people at auto shows 20 to 15 years ago were watching TV? Some probably didn't, probably a fair few of the older 60+ crowd weren't. However talk younger crowds (think 30 or below) and I'm sure almost all of them engage with TV. Heck go back to then specifically and 2002 format Top Gear was probably their introduction to the car world in the first place.

TSW definitely doesn't have much of a market share of the public, but I would argue it's because of DTG's utterly awful way of handling this game. If DTG did things like offer better route variety, cheaper pricing, and had much higher quality control I'd honestly thing their train sims would have success at least on the level of the new MSFS titles.

As for F1 I can't speak on it specifically, but online racing in things like iRacing from everything I've heard is its own competitive industry at this point. And some of the drivers that are coming into the sport even started out playing the sim racers at high levels. Furthermore while those maybe niche, Forza & Gran Turismo certainly ain't. Most of them probably are playing those games if nothing else, and frankly those like with Top Gear are probably a huge reason why they've even joined the hobby. And even if you aren't playing them I would suspect your average person at least is aware of their existence. In the same way you'd be hard pressed to fine any football (America or international) fan be aware of Madden & FIFA/EA Sport FC respectively.

I wouldn't say it does, I said it has nothing to do with nostalgia, lower attendance I'd argue hardly can't be reasonably attributed to that when every physical hobby has had declines. Every physical hobby has had to deal with competition from digital entertainment and the consequences of price increases and COVID. Saying "it's all because they don't have nostalgia for it" is a overly confident and reductive statement to make. I would argue that most of the people with nostalgia of seeing these things run in regular service were already a minority 15 years ago.

Even if we did have the data this conversation would still go on, having the data is one thing, and interpreting it is another. And frankly I don't think DTG have a correct read on it, as bold as that might sound to say. My reasoning for that doesn't even have to do with the actions of them. It's actually the actions of far larger companies like Warner Brothers or Disney which have ran huge IP's and studios into the ground with stupid decisions. And frankly they almost certainly have better staff on hand than DTG, if you can't trust them, why trust a tiny company that at best is getting hand-me-downs like DTG?

And with all due respect nobody would argue that's a smart way to run a business, and is gonna result in TSW forever appealing to just (and mean this with no offense and taking the piss out of myself a little) a few train nerds. You have to take risks if you want to grow, Top Gear wouldn't have became the household name it is now if they weren't willing to completely reformat the program. Nor would Super Mario wouldn't still be just as huge with the kids of 2025 as it was with the kids of 1985 if Nintendo weren't willing take it in new and different directions every few years.

 

So, steam physics works best at slower speeds?

Well, do I have a solution for us all...
Locomotion 1

(also, no one here has mentioned Thomas releases, a steam engine thats immensely loved)

 

I wrote a lengthy post about it in previous threads on this topic:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/speculations-next-german-tsg-route.89437/#post-967823

But the main takeaway is, steam engines are not fun. That doesn't mean that you don't enjoy them, but that running one is constant micromanagement that is extremely punishing and requiring you to have much bigger knowledge than vast majority of players have, not just about the loco, but also about the route and traffic situation. And while you could make smaller engine that is objectively more manageable and much more accessible, nobody wants that, everybody wants the most big ass locos ever made, from american bigboy to german express locomotives.

Most people would think it looks amazing, buy it and refund it immediately after absolutely not enjoying themselves.

 

There’s a very fine line at which point it becomes too much like hard work. In TSC, could just about deal with the Big Boy though I ran so late in TSC’s inimitable way I finished the run on about -30k XP. The NZ - beautiful route but spent so much time micromanaging the loco including, as mentioned previously, those lube oil valves I gave up in frustration and rarely went back. Then there was that LNER (NER) Q6 which was fudging appalling. I don’t know how it was set up but virtually impossible to get and keep moving. Refunded!

However that said, with somewhat simplified physics and procedures (though not as simple as current) I’m still convinced there’s a place for it in TSW. At the risk of repeating what’s been said previously, DTG were architects of their own downfall by ballsing up the implementation in the first place. Crewe to Liverpool should never have been the choice for the first route. It’s a dreary, workaday section of line with no “wow” factor to speak of. I’m sure the production team told Paul Jackson that but presumably overruled. It should also have been set in steam/diesel transition so we could have driven green Class 40’s and Class 101 DMU’s alongside the steam locos. There should have been a follow up DLC bringing in two smaller locos, maybe even the iconic Jinty, plus extra stock to flesh things out and a transition era route could have given a Class 24 or 25 diesel too.

Then, failing to learn from the mistakes and conceptual shortcomings of SoS, they did exactly the same with Peak Forest. This time instead of a nondescript route we got a beautiful run through the Peak District, but constrained by running from nowhere to vaguely somewhere instead of biting the bullet and going from Derby to Manchester. Once again the decision was taken to only include steam rather than go for transition with a reworked and green Class 45 (plus DMU). That would have doubled the appeal of the route but instead we got a cut down timetable, no Buxton shuttle because it was too difficult when a reskinned Class 101 would have sufficed. The epilogue to the whole sorry saga being what now appears to be the demise of the, as it turns out, vapourware Class 104 and enhanced timetable.

What should have happened, to test the water, was a steam pack for the West Somerset with (maybe) a spillover into Railtour layers for other UK routes. Either that or a modest, but well known, branch line where the developers could get to grips with the challenges without having to build a route with masses of, and as it turns out mostly unused, tracks and yards for a really intimate steam experience. Then they could have turned their attention to something more expansive, but still not Crewe to Liverpool or Amberwherethehellisthatgate to Chinshackley!

 

“steam engines are not fun”
Well if that was truly the case TSC would have stopped making them a long time ago

Also steam is a learning curve which starts off different but very rewarding after learning how to drive one,

 

You have actual F1 drivers playing some of those sims.

Uma musume Pretty Derby Has a different effect where people cosplay the characters at horse races now, they currently take up like 2 to 3 rows lol

also the whole nostalgia bit is kinda dumb because first off I’m 19 and second off I’ve only ever seen one steam locomotive and that’s when I was 18 but yet I’ve been loving steam locomotives for my whole life

 

One interesting thought… We haven’t heard from Pete (Victory Works) for a while. I wonder if DTG might have twisted his arm to do something for TSW6 which would mean potential improvement to the steam implementation as that was the only way he was prepared to engage with the concept. I expect he will be along in a minute to disperse that hope.

 

1000% agree with you Noir.
Steam is hard work indeed and needs constant attention. Its not the simple fun like a Class 323.

I do think a lot of critique of steam (not exclusively) was due to it being such a steam learning curve for new players. The balance between boiler pressure, speed, throttle and reverser is a complex art. Add to that is the use of braking, inclines and many other variables which are a breeze in diesels or electric.

I cant see how that could be changed in a train sim. It needs to be as realistic as it could. But being that realistic is low on the fun factor and replayablity. I think DTG know that.

Having said that, for TSW6, it seems the devs are going to open the game for more modders and the higher end mod businesses like ATS or Just Trains.

I think in the next few years we could see a return to steam by groups like this. God, Id do almost anything for a good GWR 060 Pannier. I think these guys could deliver on that.

 

Tbh, I don't mind if DTG aren't interested in doing more steam content, if it isn't comparatively valuable to them to build that era of routes and trains, so be it. I would just like them to work on getting the steam physics up to scratch in Simugraph so third parties can begin to develop the content instead.

 

The "but it works in TSC" argument is not too well placed in my eyes, because TSC ignores 95% of things that are going on inside the loco, it simulates few additional variables, but mostly cares only about the things that directly affect the speed, so to say.

Simulating things on such surface level would be against all the philosophy of TSW and that's why even that would be quite difficult to implement, as the backend system is developed with much deeper simulation in mind. The steam trains I played in TSC (but I am sure there are better models) were quite chill if you just reacted on what's happening now. But in reality, and equally with the components properly simulated as TSW simugraph would require, you suddenly need to know that a hill is coming in 10 minutes and you have to start firing up like hell now, so that you have enough steam generated once you get to that hill to get over it. And with the complicated system TSW runs on, it's difficult to avoid that level of simulation.

Even if you go enjoy some steam railtour nowadays as a passenger, some important things are well hidden from you that truly show how big leap it was to get rid off the steam locos in reality. Like that "turning the steam loco on" can easily take 5-8 hours, before it is ready for service.

 

Just wanna pick up on this, this could easily be done by putting upcoming gradients on the HUD, which TSC does. If you see the line going up, start speeding up if you need to.

 

I’m going to ask how does anyone have fun with simple over powered EMUs ?

like half the appeal of steam for me is the challenge compared to all the boring single handled overpowered emus which requires zero skill

 

I guess it’s a different kind of fun, but yes there’s a reason why I didn’t yet buy NLL or the Manchester Airport route. Or for that matter the German Ludwigsbahn route. Just too much of the same repetition whether one handled EMU’s or DB Red. Steam traction would provide something different to try again, otherwise TBH TSW will founder not because of its technical shortcomings but an over abundance of mediocrity in the content.

 

I am planning to do it at some point though I don't have an exact timeframe yet, it depends when I have free time
It will probably wait until at least TSW 6 releases, just in case the new game break mods or something

 

I love them. Very responsive and modern machines that rewards you with precise stops with minimal effort. For someone with little railway knowledge (me), I would've hated TSW if I hadn't started with the East Coastway and the Bakerloo Line, but instead had to manage steam with brakes that were rather weak in comparison.

 

I think that's your personal opinion and not objective fact.

Personally I don't remember having any issues with the Q6.

What?

This is just nonsense, I'm afraid. You have no evidence that all TSC steam locomotives - or even most of them! - are significantly simplified compared to reality. And Simugraph can and is simplified or contrary to reality.

 

Its one of those things where if you have to ask, you'll never know.

Its a cathartic relaxing joy.

I play a lot of strategy games that are complex and challenging and dont like easy strategy games as they arent challenging.

The reverse is true for TSW for me. The challenging parts are actually boring. The pleasure part is the visuals and atmosphere. It feels wonderful. Things rarely as cathartic as a soothing trip in an Pendolino at sunset.

 

Turns out different people enjoy different things. Who knew!

I'm not sure I agree with this for ALL steam locos, but it's definitely true for the UK steam ones we've got in TSW. US or German ones would at least have had normal (for their respective country) air brakes!

Sure, we've had vacuum brakes on UK diesels before, but they're less precise/more difficult than air brakes - and now you suddenly had to faff around with two different ejectors in addition to the brake valve AND manage the steam brake on the loco as well! That's already quite the learning curve even if you aren't trying to figure out how to make a steam locomotive go at the very same time...

On a US or German one, of course you'd still have to deal with the learning curve of, you know, making a steam locomotive move, but at least anyone who'd ever played any modern US or German content would've already known how to stop the thing.

And, much less importantly, the larger loading gauges allowing for larger windows in the front of the cab would've been a nice bonus as well. Even the windscreen on the class 385 is pretty great next to one of those UK steam locos...

 

In your opinion. Not only do I find steam enjoyable, but also fun. Some of my memorable runs were on the Crane Creek RR in TSC taking that kettle up and down the route. Very satisfying running in “expert” mode being able to maintain boiler pressure without stalling out on the grades. Can it be a challenge? Sure and that is part of the fun for me.

Anyway, would enjoy seeing Steam make a return to TSW

 

There’s always one sarcastic **person** in these threads,

yeah obviously we can have different opinions but that doesn’t prove the fact we need new steam physics or just a new locomotive at this point

we have a plague of these emus in game

 

It would seem as there is also always someone that can't accept the opinions of others too, and just needs to accept life isn't always going to give you what you want.......

 

In your opinion.

 

The comment from mjckp in this thread triggered me to look at his steam mod - very interesting, but is there a source which would enable me to learn procedures based on that mod?

 

It’s all fine. There’s at least one steam loco being announced in a few days so everyone can settle down. Steam is by far the most popular type of train, as can be seen by all the steam in TSC, all the heritage railways and all the smiling kids at them, and all the suggestions in the TSW suggestions forum are for steam trains and routes set back in the very olden days, not modern times with the latest trains at all. That’s why steam is coming back to TSW. DTG are following the big money. New physics, full manual firing, the works. It’s going to be ace.

 

I don't get much of the chit-chat about noir's post, they're very right based on what I've seen. Not for every single person ever mind you, but on the flip-side it's hardly true to say that "Steam content not being fun is some crazy opinion only noir holds".

I myself actually love the steamers for the fact they constantly engage you, but it's also rather objectively apparent that my reasons for playing the game is very different from most. Lots of the people on the forum ain't here to challenge themselves, they want more basic experience where they can let off and enjoy the views a bit more. That's fine on its own, but it does create massive issues for content in this game which inherently requires you to be on the ball like steamers.

Another factor I've always felt is that train sims have always done very poor jobs of convincing people to try harder tasks when many of said tutorials are, at best, overly basic and boring, and at worst, actively broken. Steam in particular is something you need to get a good feel for, particularly with reverser/cutoff operation. You can explain the basics well enough, but it's hard to sell to someone new to a train sim how frequent and little those tiny adjustments need to be. So they just kind of let on your own to figure out how exactly when and where the cutoff needs to be moved and located for the most part.

Lord knows, I sympathize a lot with those sorts because I played train sims for years and barely understood how steamers worked. I got the basic idea of "Raise/lower cutoff based on speed" but struggled with actually keeping pressure up on them. It was though a lot of practice, brute forcing, and sheer want to actually drive them that made me good at operating them. I would've easily been filtered out if I didn't have that drive in me as a kid to engage with them and challenge myself.

 

Oooooh!! for the DT live on the 26th Aug?
I already cant wait.
Please be a Pannier
Please be a Pannier
Please be a Pannier