Very happy to see the 294, but has it been said if it will be able to substitute the current 363 services on the various routes? That would be super.
Straight from the roadmap: This suggests to me that it will have timetable services solely on Leipzig-Dresden, and is available only for Free Roam on other routes. If that's true, it's a huge wasted opportunity. But let's wait and see
Im kinda hoping that all the new stock from dresden/leipiz layers into older routes. So i can uninstall old dresden/risa route. To free up memory plus don't see the point in having both.
If I understood Matt correctly during the Roadmap stream, Dresden-Riesa will be required to get all the layers for Dresden-Leipzig. I really hope that's not the case, I would like to uninstall it as well.
That makes no sense you need an older route to layer into a newer route. But then the newer route should come with everything the older route has.
You are correct. You will still need DRA for the 143, 185, and a few others. However, I think it is just concerning substitutions, not layers. This is why they are giving DRA for free to anyone who buys the new route.
I remember Matt once saying the substitution system was set up all automatically; as long as a loco had enough horse power and would fit the routes era, it'd be available for substitution... I wonder how that eventually ended up working though. Sounds like the substitution system could use an update to be more flexible.
Ah ok, then I hope it will at least sub in for the 363. As much as I love the 363, the poor thing is in way over its head on some routes, with some services... For example the stuff at Tharandter Rampe, Ludwigsbahn or the two Aschaffenburg routes is mostly 294 work. Agreed. A simpler system could also make things easier for 3rd party modders to create new locos for the game. I remember that misguided substitution already has been an issue with Maik's 218 when it came out, subbing into routes and services it shouldn't (although some of those involuntary subs work rather well, to be honest).
I doubt it, because if the substitution system actually worked like Matt once described it, the existing 204 would be able to substitute for 363, wouldn't it?
On some routes it seems to actually do that, at least for AI services. I've seen 204's on Ruhr-Sieg-Nord for example, in places where a 363 would usually be. Who knows? Let's wait and see. And if the 218 is able to sub in for electric locos twice as powerful, everything is possible
Fwiw the G6 shows up in a ton of places, so some of them must be 363 substitutions. I'm hopeful the 294 will function in the same way but it would be great to get official confirmation
Part of the problem is that the DRA rolling stock layers into a LOT of other routes. Sure, DLZ could come with the "same" trains, but the layering links wouldn't be there, and uninstalling DRA would still leave many German routes depopulated.
IIRC, the G6 is available as a manual player substitution for the 363 on every route where the 363 appears. I imagine it will be the same with the 294.
The 294 is much longer than the 363 or G6, so unless some timetable author really thought about future-proofing and configured their services for that, it will not be able to sub in.
Good point, I haven't thought about that. There are a bunch of 363 services which start very close to the next signal, or require to shunt to a track stump which is barely long enough, even for the 363.
It also affects services without these physical constraints though. When you make a formation in the timetable editor, you need to specify how much longer than the original vehicle any vehicles subbing in are allowed to be. So unless some timetable author thought "well, we might get a 294 one day..." and configured their formations accordingly, it will not sub in for the 363 anywhere.
...well, Matt said in the stream that the 294 3D model has been around for years- it was held up because they couldn't source sounds for it - so people inside DTG would have been aware that we'd be getting it one day.
Well that makes it a much less interesting proposition for sure. Almost leaning towards the pointless tbh...what's the LAMPOIL on a shunter that doesn't subsitute on the dozens of existing shunting services, and almost certainly won't going forward because of some vehicle length variable? Better hope the included services are really good i guess. Went from 10 to zero excitement on this one tbh
I feel pretty much the same. Really hoping we will get a pleasant surprise instead of yet another huge missed opportunity, but my expectations have become rather low at this point. Well, let's wait and see. Still almost a month to go, perhaps we'll know more by then
Well the 294 would be handy to sub in on Maintalbahn with its 80 km/h top speed rather than trundling along at 55 km/h with the 363.
Well, the 294 is not the same kind of loco as the 363. The latter is a little yard shunter, there to hump wagons around like a Gronk. But the 294 is a full-blown road switcher, a dual-purpose engine like the GP-38, built not only for heavy shunting (in large freightyards) but also for mainline freight hauling. Not really employed in the same roles.
I'd 100% use it for that. It seems like shooting themselves in the foot to offer a 294 that doesn't layer anywhere. Why offer a product basically no one is going to buy because they can't use it? That'd just be leaving money on the table.
There is a difference between substitution and layering. Substitution is simply swapping one engine for a similar one on an existing service. A layer is an independent group of timetable services for a particular loco, which have to be built into the timetable. TSG have no ability to go into DTG routes and remake their timetables! At least, not unless the service layer is an express part of the DLC and they work with DTG to make it happen, as with the G6- only on the one route, RRO. Everywhere else you see a G6 it's just subbing for a 363, it's not a layer. The problem with substituting the 294 for the 363 has been discussed above: it's physically a much longer loco, and it generally isn't used for the same jobs. (Having said that, it would make a great sub for the disappointing BR 204, its East German equivalent)
Well, if you didn't have that length limit, it would just sub in for the 363 everywhere... and if a service previously had a stop marker set up so that it cleared a set of points by four meters, that service would now get stuck as soon as a 294 substituted into it and the entire timetable would grind to a halt eventually. Yes it will. Setting up the length limit takes 2 seconds & it's a 100% routine timetable setup task. It has to be done on almost every service and it is done. If it wasn't, you couldn't use the 155 or the 182 anywhere. Plus, going forward, 294-substituting-for-363 is going to be pretty rare anyways. As solicitr says, they're different locos for different purposes, and now that they both exist they can just use whichever one is correct by default.
Fair enough on the technical reasoning, but i'm still frustrated as a player that it will be limited to a handful of services on one route. It looks really cool i wish it was able to be used more widely! Regarding future timetables, i hope you're right and maybe i'm overreacting but i could just see a future dev planning a shunting layer for a route and deciding between a 363 or 294 layer and likely going with the 363 because more of the playerbase already own it. They probably won't think, "let's make a road shunter layer as well for the 294", as it would make the project less profitable.
I dont mind it being on that one route as long as it has plenty of jobs. Unlike the flix train on ftf.
Of course I'm still excited to get the 294 and use it on future routes. But looking at the existing 363 services on existing routes, there are a number of where the poor 363 can barely get the train moving, even in low gear. There are some on Maintalbahn for example, where you have to bring 1200+ ton freight units from the harbour up to Aschaffenburg Hbf which are downright impossible in everything except calm and dry weather conditions. The 294 would be a perfect fit for those
Already you can sub in the 204, which is beefy enough. Not a very good loco, true (Rivet as usual made it look fantastic but bollixed the physics), but it will get the job done.
That's very true. I thought the same thing earlier today. I'd love to do a full local freight turn from Aschaffenburg to Miltenberg and return in the 294. With shunting in Aschaffenburg yard, the road moves, and serving the industries at Obernburg-Elsenfeld and Kleinheubach, and the wood loading track at Miltenberg, that would be a really fun couple of hours. Maybe add a 218-hauled through freight train as well? But all that would be an all-new timetable, not just substitution...
Hmm, the 204 doesn't sub into Maintalbahn for me... Over my dead body That actually sounds like a great idea for a rainy afternoon Sadly yes. Weaving 294-tailored timetable services into existing timetables would be a huge pain in the backside, I can imagine...
That's weird: the 204's "home route" is MSB, specifically hauling freight around the Aschaffenburg end.
That may be so, but it doesn't sub in. That's why there's so much disappointment over the 204 being underutilized...which could happen to the 294 now too. Niddertalbahn, Maintalbahn, etc are just where I'd love to see the 294. The 363 is nice, but it is underpowered for moving freight. It is properly a yard worker really.
It really does feel like an afterthought, most likely as a result of DTG refusing to recognise that German railways exist outside of the 2012-2018 period.
According to Wikipedia, the 294 is a whole 3.5 metres longer than the 363 so I struggle to see how any current working with the latter in TSW is going to struggle for space with the 294 instead.
