It seems like a no-brainer to me: we have Litchurch Lane, we have loads of the stock included to bring together, and we have many of the trains that got special liveries (37, 66, Mk3 coaches). It feels like a gameplay pack with a few Greatest Gathering scenarios would have been a slam dunk.
I'm guessing because they were more focused on having a physical presence on the days, while dev work will have been pretty deep into TSW6 at the time.
I reckon they could have spared a bit of time for a few repaints and a couple of scenarios though. Would have been good PR. And there is at least some steam.
It's funny that my hometown social media group came alive one again with everyone posting videos of Clan line flying through Worthing with their kids and adults all lining up and down the platforms to get a glimpse. But no steam doesn't sell
We had Clan Line through Kent last Tuesday and there were people of all kinds, not just enthusiasts lining up to see it. Grosmont station looked dangerously packed with the visit of flying Scotsman, but as you say, steam doesn’t sell!
I'd make the effort to see a steam railtour come past on my local, I'd probably even fawn a little. That doesn't translate to me wanting to actually drive a steam loco. While I don't agree with the sentiment "steam doesn't sell" I also don't think people wanting to see irl steam translates exactly to "steam sells" Most of the player base for TSW (for better or worse) are console casuals who probably don't care about BR or steam but the trains they see on their local day in day out. I'd LOVE for steam to have a true hayday in TSW, maybe JT could do something as they're seemingly the only developers not doing modern rn
You can also do both and one suggests that a sizeable number of those who adore Steam Engines will quite fancy taking one for a spin.
I like the IDEA of steam engines, but they're not "fun to drive" for me. I get the appeal for others, but they're more of a novelty to me, not something I drive often. That would be doubly the case the more "accurate" they get. As for the event... that's just it. It's a single event. They did outreach at the event. At most I could see them coordinating to do a Livery Pack for it maybe in commemoration?
Steam is very much loved here in the UK, otherwise nobody would visit heritage railways or go on rail tours to experience them. They’re iconic, simple as that really. Some diesel/modern enthusiasts do look down their noses at them and make silly comments, but you can just shrug and ignore those people. As for driving them, they’re great fun and very engaging. Takes a lot of skill to run one efficiently, not to mention bringing them to a smooth stop in the right place. The only non-steam, UK stock in TSW that gives you a similar engaging experience is the BR Class 101 with it’s gear changing and lapped brakes. When it comes to steam selling DLC, it does when done properly. As I’ve said before, just look at the growing third party scene for TS Classic. If they didn’t sell, you wouldn’t see these third parties continuing to make content like they do. There’s just no incentive for these third party developers to move over to TSW when the steam physics they have in TS Classic are better than what we currently have in TSW. There is talk going around of TSG attempting steam, Alex even mentioned it briefly on the latest roadmap stream. Hopefully something comes out of that
DTG owns both, so why do both the same? Imagine if you own the Burger King across from the Taco Bell. Would you be in a rush to start selling burgers at Taco Bell and tacos at Burger King? What's the point?
Exactly. SOS and PFR didn't sell well because they aren't of high enough quality, esp. as compared the modern routes which released around the same time.
Spirit of Steam actually did sell really well according to Matt, it had the hype of being the first steam route behind it. Unfortunately, the lack of post release support or physics improvements quickly dampened the mood. To be fair, Peak Forest as a route was well made. You could tell a lot of effort went into the route building part. Sadly, there were very little improvements in the steam simulation which is what put a lot of people off it. The timetable having little to do for the new 4F also didn’t help things, it needed some local pick up / drop off goods runs. I just hope the 104 pack resurfaces as it was to come with a improved timetable.
You say that... but I think the opposite. It would have done better with more diesel in a fuller timetable. Making steam harder to get into might not have made it sell better but worse. But we won't know... and this is in danger of turning into another "steam" thread. Back to the original topic, I think the limit of the "Greatest Gathering" is that it's only a once every 100 year event. Is there something else that happens more often..say...yearly that they could take part in? What about a livery pack for comemmoration? Or historical livery packs like we have in DTG for "fallen flag" (defunct) railroads? Surely there's a bunch of those in the UK too that they could do. Or if there's no regular event... create one? Does DTG do a huge social gathering every year they could market and give out/sell merchandise at? If you show up/buy a ticket... you get the commemorative event livery pack? Or it's only sold during that week every year? Make it both exclusive but inclusive. (Exclusive in that you have to participate real or virtually in that week, but inclusive in that it's open to all players in some way) The point is it generates buzz, community and the railfan hobby as a whole. It also keeps it in the public mind rather than every 50 or 100 years. Not sure what they have over there, but there are plenty of places here where a meetup would be amazing. Altoona for example has conference facilities around Horseshoe Curve, the Overlook and the railway museum in Altoona by the Works. Anyone in the Northeast could go there once a year and meet up with other TSW/TSC fans. (And it'd be on a route that's in game!) There's heritage rail tours around too. I'm sure the West Coast has someplace like that maybe near San Bernadino/LA union Station? Gotta be some rail museums and heritage railways in the UK or Germany that could host a small convention of TSW/TSC fans. Doesn't have to be ONLY TSW/TSC fans but we are on this forum. That would be the core group, while it would bring others into DTG gaming, from other games or from just "normie" railfans. I mean... it's trains either way. If you want pretty easy, cheap viral marketing that'd be fun I think that would be an interesting way to go. There's also social media now with Discord and stuff for those who can't participate in real life. I'd organize something around Altoona if anyone was interested. I have been meaning to go there anyway, so that'd be fun research to do. Not sure who's regionally local that could help out. Or maybe people don't want to meet other people or go to rail focused event or promote the game. Maybe we are a bunch of basement dwellers who just sit on their computers all day! =-)
It's always worth noting that "Doesn't sell", can mean one of two things: 1) doesn't sell enough to break even 2) makes a profit, but less profit than other addons. And I think in a game like TSW there needs to be room for addons in category 2.
Counterpoint: Isn't every low selling DLC taking up space that could be a high selling DLC instead? Put another way... by making 10 people happy... are you not making 30 people happy? Not always about the money, but about pleasing the most customers.
I think we are at a point now where we should be able to have DLC for the masses and DLC for the minority, they may cost more to buy being for a smaller audience but we have Skyhook, Grump Dog, Rivet, Just Trains, All Aboard, DTG, Firefly, HIS, TSG, Union Workshop, and the two other ones from the roadmap I'm forgetting (sorry) and then all the others behind the scenes being onboarded. "Expect the unexpected" - Class 90, ECW DLC pack, Class 220. Who knows, steam may be on the way
Even with an overlap between those two groups, by doing both you're making more people happy. In all things - food, film, clothes, music - there's room for things with mass appeal, and for stuff that's less popular. And most people enjoy both to some extent. Also, by making a Train Simulator, you've already decided that making the most popular thing isn't your highest priority. A train sim has to be financially sustainable, but it has to be a labour of love to some extent, it will always be somewhat niche.
You're not making more people happy. That's mathematically incorrect. Hecticjojo is onto something, although he didn't pursue the thought above. Making content for the small minority will require upping prices for it to pay off, which further starts a price/purchase spiral keeping it very expensive and in very small numbers. The "Expert 101" is a good example. $39.99 for a single loco for most people is a turn off, but for a select few it's a lot of fun. However, let's not pretend that it sold a LOT of copies. It was very niche... and was done by a passionate third-party team who really wanted to see it in game. It wasn't a "charity" project. So since this is going back to steam (which it always seems to with some people)...find a third party developer who is passionate about it and have them making something similar to the "Expert 101." Don't expect DTG to do it as outreach or charity. It's a two-way street. You need developers who WANT to make the content and enough customers who WANT to buy it. Sometimes that doesn't match up with what you personally may want. Still waiting on that 1960s or 1970s route in TSW, but I don't see it happening. And that's okay.
At the least they could have done Locomotion and some vintage stock, doing a "special" on TVL similar to what they did with TTTE on WSR.
The notion seems to be TSG are working on something steam related. Alex alluded to it on the roadmap stream and there was a post from TSG in discord saying steam might not be as dead as we think!
I'm not particularly good at taking my random crazy thought and turning them into actually comprehensible ideas. Words.. aren't my best thing and I seem to end up loosing my point in a ramble. I'd like to think that DTG did infact think of doing a special livery pack or something like that, and then thought of all the people who would jump on the forums and moan about a livery pack (I don't mean you Vern, I'm speaking generally) - the three livery packs I can think of didn't go down very well. I am not the biggest fan of steam in the world, although *do* have TTTE and love making fun over the dramas around him being in the game. I really think a German steam loco would go down like Pancakes covered with MSG and Crack (sorry it's early and I couldn't think of a better way to put it)
It wasn't personal hecticjojo. We all get on a tangent. =-) Your main point is correct. Niche products tend to be more expensive. Arguably, the truly "niche" games like Simrail and Run 8 offer even less for more money than TSW does, but it's more "authentic." The physics, braking and systems on those are better than TSW, but the graphics and gameplay are definitely not there and it's even more expensive for what you get because they are much smaller audiences. In some ways, it's a Quixotic quest to have the "best of both worlds." They want the niche content from say Run 8 or Sim Rail, with all the graphics and low cost of TSW. It's... possible... sort of. The "Expert 101" proves a third party developer CAN bring an expensive, well detailed train to market in TSW. It can sell a few copies at a higher cost. However, expecting the cheaper content to be more detailed while remaining cheap is not realistic. Let's run through this thought experiment. There's probably a way you could create a "steam engine" layer on top of the normal "engine" layer in TSW to create the effects of steam in TSW that's more "realistic" but it would require a lot more work from the ground up compared to just working with what's already there. It might be more than $39.99 for a single loco. How many people are willing to pay that? Few... but some are. You'd have to find someone willing to do that work though. We have a lot of devs in TSW, but how many are actually building NEW locos from scratch, not just modifications or reskins? How many of them know and are passionate enough about a steam engine to take months to recreate it faithfully? And on what route does that loco run? That would require narrowing down which one to do, what references there are for it, finding a running one (moving at high speed), etc. Maybe someone could throw up a good suggestion for what specifically people would want and how to get there? My point is just that it's a HUGE ask for a developer and those are super risky without a proven market. Yes, a fair people say they would "like a steam engine" but once price gets into it.... that number drops off a cliff. If you narrowed it down to a specific project and said "We can make a Hall Class in GWR for $49.99 that runs on SOS and PFR". how many are now in the market? Conversely, if they said "We want to offer a Jubilee-level sophistication, no new features, no new programming, but it'll LOOK like a Hall" for $16.99".... that's more people because it's lower cost but also criticism it's not "real enough." Again... BACK to the original thread.... releasing a 3 historical steam engine pack of Jubilee/Scotsman level of detail might be a "buy" for many people (especially if they were more famous and different like maybe a Pannier style or something less conventional looking. You'll sell easily 3 times as many of the "simple" ones vs the "complex" ones. That's how you introduce a lot more people to the content and the historical aspects, not more complex niche stuff that few will buy, with a steep learning curve. There is a market... but it needs to be fleshed out first. Just like "where do you run a Hall class?" Didn't they go out of service by the 1940s? So that leaves no routes for any comprehensive runs for it. They're all too new. That requires more routes (or sticking to the WSR maybe) We only have two remotely appropriate steam routes, so you'd have to make content for those, limited to what was appropriate for those. Cart before the horse thinking. Respectfully, I think the "historical heritage" fans who love steam should put their heads together and discuss a really specific suggestion based on a practical proposal that could work in game, not just "I want steam stuff." Pick PFR/SOS or both. Find an appropriate locomotive that could work there. Where do you get references for it? Do any of them run we can access? How do you translate that into game terms? Can we find someone who can translate between the main game system engine and the "add on" steam engine layer? (DTG is not going to rewrite the game engine for one locomotive) What would it take to be "authentic?" What would it theoretically cost? Is there a market for it with the details we just put together?
Every damn time, most of us console players do care! About the old and hell half the time during these debates it’s the pc players saying steam doesn’t sell not the console side I’m so fed up with this beep
I am a console player, I play on PS5. I don't think it's a hot take to say that the majority of the player base is on console, i also don't think it's a hot take to say that most of the console players are more casual players than serious "train geeks" for lack of a better word.
But Locomotion wouldn’t have been a livery pack, it would have been a whole new loco/stock bundle. As usual though, DTG took a great chance to do something iconic and watered it up against the wall.
My bad, I must have not quite understood. A loco bundle would have been a cool idea, some railtours maybe even. That does seem like quite the missed opportunity to make a quick $ on DTGs part
You raise a few points. Mostly the one about supply and demand. We all have our preferences yet if these no huge demand then it won’t happen. Not by a company set on profit. Small businesses will carter for any individuals wants or needs but it’s gonna cost because demand is low and so any sales made is so at a very high price level. However that doesn’t mean something that wouldn’t appear as non profitable to create become profitable by making it more appealing to customers. Railway 200 I thought and believed would be a great opportunity to do just that. I myself opened up a project aimed at creating a The Greatest Gathering on TSW. The point of that was to create the event where the community could send their Railway 200 liveries in where they would have been put on display. I took this idea a few steps further by emailing a number of companies with the aim of developing a Railway 200 DLC pack of the event. Then I had ideas for the models that would have been sold around the price points content is sold now. It wasn’t about getting a big return per unit sold but selling a product that’s easy to make and sell if it’s historical to the event. Make them Limited Edition and they would fly off the shelf’s. Add charity to the cause too, so for that I emailed a number of TOCs. One firm was quite interested but eventually it fizzled out. The idea was a loco to be painted in a one off livery. I created one but a competition could have been made where the winner had a loco painted and presented at the GG. A bonus to the company would be the PR for a model would be made and sold to raise funds for the event charity partners. All this and more was presented to companies, including DTG and DTG Matt directly 5 months before the event took place. The Plan or task was this. DTG do the event no locos. 3rd party do locos, even the idea of Hornby working along side DTG so Hornby provide the locos DTG the routes. The locos that would be made would be the most cost efficient ones to deliver on time with plans for later additions like steam. This is help keep costs to a minimum while providing what was at the event and for TSW user to purchase the locos available and what was planned later for collection. This was so players could mix and match for the event so eventually all locos etc would have been produced to complete the Railway 200 DLC and loco collection for prosperity. These locos could then be used on existing TSW routes freeing DTG from being held responsible for what most demand but don’t understand the cost implications of developing a product with no universal demand or unique selling point. People will eventually get what they want if even it means using PC based products over console based products. Is that a massive mistake on DTG’s part. Not really it makes commercial sense if players head to TS or TSC. There still selling while not wasting huge resources on a low demand product. If they do then I can only assume what’s on offer would be quite expensive over console. This again would be a risk to the company and so with any risk the risk or price of taking that risk is passed on to the customer wanting a unique product. All get what they want, DTG not wasting resources while still offering the chance for user to get their hands on what they demand. Take that one step further and there are number of studios that do carter for the true rail enthusiasts. The money revenue might be low to them yet these studios don’t need huge amounts of revenue to keep going due to low operating costs. So they can spend more time on the unique content because it’s not about the money but one of passion and interest they share with the steam/mod community. Anyway with Railway 200 and DTG I’m sure if they did have any real interest then with the news of the events being announced at least a year in advance then yes DTG could have done something on the side lines. And it could with hindsight or taking some of the ideas I proposed to them and others been a way to give users the locos so many have been asking for. The IP or selling point was the event itself. If DTG and Railway 200 came together to create the Greatest Gathering on TSW then what may have seemed unprofitable to create before the event could have been profitable to DTG in the way suggested. It could have opened the doors up for a number of opportunities looking back. I seen the commercial opportunity and PR opportunities with bring all together and make it happen. People want the event, TSW user want loco and possibly the event too. The Railway 200 Event was the reason for any Railway 200 collators to collect because it was time limited and unit limited for the event packs. The locos sold then or later are only of use to those with the Event set or TSW. Anyway I tried that’s all I can say. And here on the forums with the Railway 200 prep thread. Did I achieve it tho no. Did anyone else try or achieve it no. I think that in itself will explain why DTG and no other company bothered. Because no one was really that bothered about the meaning of the event, it was just a chance to see all the loco in one place and nothing else mattered. The men of the past built what they did. We couldn’t even make a little scenario or DLC pack. This is why if no one else would do it then I would to show these great men of the past that with pure ambition to achieve a dream then nothing would stand in their way. That even goes for money. Isambard wanted the best regardless of cost and why today we still remember Him and the Men. They gave us Railways and the Industrial Revolution and the passion we all share today. We gave back nothing. Including DTG for what we have all because of the minds of great Men not the Machines from where they was born. The Men of Iron and Steel. ✌.
Does an Xbox player's money not count the same? Why am i more casual if i play on xbox? Do those hours spent playing not apply? Why does that lose me my "train geek" label? You just say it like it's self evident but you're painting with an awfully broad brush
For me it’s quite simple. Age. We all do it from music to films absolutely everything revolves around age and then interest to the individual. So TSW is a game sold on a games console. It would be fair to assume console is what the younger generations use before PC. I then look at like this. If I get in my car I might bang on some tunes I loved or recognise as what I can understand and relate too. My son tho will think it’s rubbish. The same with the train situation. A boy grew up with steam they want steam. A boy that grew up with a class 101 will want a 101, A boy that grew up with a 158 will want a yes you guess it a 158. You can see that at no point was any of these things not loved or adored. They are but only by those that experienced them. Or have general interest. Each time a person of those eras or generations will have their own take on what’s popular or not but that based on their own pre conception of what is popular due to how they can relate to something. Why if we go deeper some might feel passionately about steam over diesel because they was there when it all happened. It’s an argument that is to me a little pointless due to how age will affect what each generation speaks of trains. That’s a social construct of moving with the times. A hundred years from now and the same argument or discussion about what is popular or not will still go on. For today if I flip this around then my son thinks what I do is pants by playing some AC/DC or Nirvana. But I look at what he and his generation do and I think they’re all mad. Don’t get me started on the music. We could be here all day about what’s popular in music just as much as a train but the only still applies a same principle. Personal preference based on a life growing up or around each era of traction. Age. Today sales on TSW will continue with modern classes because we live in a modern era. Do car games offer old 1920 Brooklands Bentley, nope because today generations bang on some music and drive a slammed Beamer or Audi. Yet when they reach a rip old age of 50 might love cars enough from playing car games they actually buy old 1920s classic or a car they drove as a child. Yet we are all here now in the present. No one can say with any certainty because has any one done the market research. If DTG have along with sales figures then clearly the sales figures aren’t good enough for DTG to do it again. I brought this point up a few days ago actually. Assuming steam routes are more demanding on resources to gather all the necessary information to recreate routes long gone then if we say it took 6mths for a steam route but only 3 for a modern route then DTG would make and sell two game in the same time it’s taken for the one steam route. If that’s the case then why we see no steam is not based on DTG individual taste, it’s the market saying what it wants. What people want will sell so again why we no longer see steam because every dog has its days. Business is Business. To sell and make money. Money is what it all boils down too. ✌.
