After the last day of Dovetail announcements, we saw that they're releasing another leg of the WCML, this time a very long route from Milton Keynes to Crewe. We can even go from Euston to Crewe using Route Hopping, more than half of the WCML, but then... what about the ECML? What happened? Why all this focus on the WCML with different routes in different eras, when the ECML only has one route from Peterborough to Doncaster, just 80 miles long and basically only the class 801 Azuma for the route? I'd love to see Kings Cross in the game. And even more, what about the MML? Which also only has one route, from Leicester to Derby, an even shorter route than the ECML, and it's not even set in modern times, it was still using HST. So to summarize, I'm not complaining about the WCML, because they are good routes, but why this focus on the WCML? The game must have almost 10 WCML routes, and only one ECML and one MML route.
I suspect that LNER aren’t very cooperative. There’s no Class 91 in TSW and no suggestion of one, and that’s one thing that the ECML really is crying out for. The reason they have (in my opinion) remained focussed on the WCML is that they have all the trains already in the bank.
DTG isn’t developing any WCML, third parties are. DTG have only done 2 (and abit from Bakerloo) routes along the WCML in what, 8 years. Both of their routes being in 2 very different era’s & the releases years apart.
It seems it’s All Aboard who are heavily focussed on the WCML, I have no idea for sure but it wouldn’t be difficult to believe that they have a deal with Avanti/LNWR to use the routes in their simulators. TSW does have the potential to be used for real world driver training.
Whilst All Aboard are focusing on the WCML, Just Trains seem to be heavily focusing on the North West!!
It is all rather imbalanced in my opinion. Nothing really in the south east to a few years, nothing in Norfolk and only one heritage line.
I'd be surprised if LNER weren't co-operative as we have full branding in game with signs and posters etc. Not all routes have that. However I do remember DTG saying they only had access to an 801 not an LNER 800. Even though there wasn't much need for an 800 as its all under wires.
WCML needs a ban. People moaned at 4 southern region routes now there's going to be 4 to 6 routes that have WCML as start/end or middle point on the WCML. It's definitely time to give other mainlines love Southwestern mainline, Chiltern mainline, East Coast mainline and even Walsh mainline love
Poor old Norfolk, definitely someone should be looking at the Norfolk Branches. Swing Bridge at Reedham is an obvious landmark that could feature.
I'd say let the third parties make the routes they want. There's so many third parties now I do not see the reason for all the complaining. If it was DTG themselves back to back I would get it but it's not.
Third parties will make what interests them and what they can easily research or get access to I would imagine. DTG probably have more resources, however I don't understand why DTG are getting the flak for this, have a go at JT or AAB if it causing someone so much anger. The new JT route isn't even the WCML save for the short stretch in Carlisle.
In JT's case, they've had this approach for some time now and there's a lot of advantages to focusing on one area. Large hubs probably take up the most research and development time, so saving on that in future extensions is a bonus. It also allows AI traffic to gradually become more and more realistic and varied as each addon improves every previous route to some extent. Let's say they switched to the ECML in the same era, there isn't really anything other than the 47 made that could be run there. Even the 142s were mostly concentrated in the North West & Cornwall at the time, with 143s and 144s being much more common.
As noted above the WCML is all 3P work and I assume DTG only have so much creative control over what they decide to do. There doesn’t appear to be any UK routes at all on the roadmap from DTG, period. In fact Alex indicated in another thread that internal resources are being focused on core fixes. So we are entirely dependent on 3P’s to move into untouched areas such as East Anglia or Newcastle.
ECML is just boring or at least the bit they did in game already, maybe just maybe a backdated version would be good but I doubt that will happen even with the class 55 being one of the most suggested trains
Kings X to Pete should have been the ECML debut route for sure. So much more significant than the boring section they did. Also they would have been able to add more commuter traffic down south. I sincerely hope this will get done next as priority, give the ECML some actual relevance by putting a terminus on it.
Yet they have the licence for LNER obviously as they feature in a route, so that just doesn’t add up.
You have no evidence for this, and there's plenty of evidence (the support for the ECML release, the video with a real-life LNER driver playing the route) that suggests otherwise.
I think if ECML had gone to York it would be far better, a major station and a driver changeover point. I know Doncaster is quite a large station but not as significant a station as York. I do agree that Kings Cross to Peterborough would have been a more interesting first choice. I would be happy with Newcastle to York or Edinburgh.
To be honest there’s little base to this whole thing. DTG aren’t doing any WCML development & have only developed what’s been outlined above already. What DTG have done is produce a Southeastern Mainline (albeit a little unconventional but none the less it’s a very headlining route) with TSW 2/3, then with 4 they did ECML, with 5 they did WCML (before anyone had done a modern version) & with 6 they did a GWML. They’ve been pretty diverse as far as ToC mainlines go, at least for the UK & DTGs allotted ‘larger mileage’ yearly release. If DTG had done another WCML or ECML with TSW 6, only then would they be guilty of what they’re getting accused of here.
It's currently in the works apparently, see the end of this link...by who, who knows https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/wherry-lines.92551/
There's plenty of other routes I would prefer over wcml but I'm not a developer so basically I'll take What's offered or not take it.
Here is how I view it. They can work on the WCML all they want. As they do (the devs) their skills will no doubt carry on improving. When it is time for the two best mainlines to appear fully in game (GWML, PDL) they will naturally be done to a much better standard. We'll all be extatic that the routes have zero bugs and done correctly the first time round. Happy days. Ideally we will get a RDG - BTM and OXF route and a PLY - PNZ route (forgetting the Rivet PNZ route exists).
I would assume that these two upcoming WCML route's will be the last ones we see for quite some time, solely for the fact that at this point the entire English portion of the corridor is covered in some way or another. From what I've seen both on the forums and in the Discord, the ECML continues to be one of the highest requested routes. Whether that be an overhaul and extension of the current one or another part of the route in any era, there are plenty of people making it clear that they would like that and I don't see why that would be ignored. For the Class 91, there is little reason that it couldn't be made. Even if LNER themselves were unable to give DTG or a 3P access to a 91 due to the number of them left being limited and always in service, there is a preserved one on the Bo'ness railway that I'm sure would absolutely suffice for model referencing and there are companies like AP that have a large library of recordings that could be licenced. My assumption is that the only reason it hasn't been made is either because it isn't deemed to be a valuable use of resources or (copium) it actually is coming sometime in the next year or two. Licensing really shouldn't be an issue because, as far as we know, they do still have a deal with LNER and the DfT. Even if it is, the ECML is probably one of the most filmed railways of all time so it shouldn't be hard to acquire reference to backdate a route to a point in time where branding isn't an issue. You've got to remember that DTG sold a 390 as a separate addon upon the release of WCMLS, frankly for that route it seemed pointless but by this time next year we'll have 3 routes for it. I obviously have no data for this but I would assume the IC225 is around as popular as the Pendolino, so I really cannot see a reason that they or a 3P wouldn't be developing or planning to develop one. I'm sure it would sell well.
I believe you either get a license or you don’t, there are no half measures. They have the license for the Azuma which is what counts from Kings X, plus the the backups like Thameslink 700 etc. Anyway all soon coming under nationalisation with GBR so will be irrelevant.
I’m very greatful with the amount of WCML we have got. But I do agree we need to see some more ECML too. I’d love to see Edinburgh - Newcastle at some point.
But the LNER 800 or Azuma is in TSW in the ECML route? Anyway it’ll all be GBR soon which will simplify licensing…DTG will either have them all or none of them lol.
The license is for the LNER and Azuma branding, not the trains themselves and has no bearing on access given to said trains (see US freight-based shenanigans). The thing with the IC225 is most of the coaches are unique in the formation, you need a 91, Mk4 TSO, TSO with accessible toilet, TSO without the gangway at one end, Buffet car (steady, Vern), TFO, TFO with accessible toilet, TFO with a crew area, and a DVT.
There was a ban for a while on Southern Region routes when people were getting bored of them. Now there hasn't been any in a few years they are very highly requested, SWR especially. If done for the WCML it wouldn't need to be forever, I for one would love to see the Carlisle to Glasgow bit. It's just that these rapid-fire WCML routes have come at the expense of other areas of the country like the ECML, GEML and SWML.
That’s standard practice. I think this is all getting a bit out of hand. We are talking about creating more sections of the ECML and they already have the license for the LNER Azuma it’s already in the game! End of.
My only regret is that we will have half the WCML sections in TSWset in the mid eighties, half in current day, Carlisle to Glasgow probably never getting built and Northampton being overlooked, with art therefore following railway history.
A ‘ban’…have a word with yourself! People were complaining when WCML released that the route wasn't long enough…a year on people are complaining that there’s too much. Can’t win sometimes!
No, you'd need a GNER license, I believe the rights to the brand are held by a private individual, who was not happy when a model company (forget who) made a train in GNER livery without license. In any case how would getting a GNER license change things?
idk what you exactly meant by "no suggestion of one". I dont know did you meant by that there are no development plans or rumors to suggest that a class 91 is coming. Or is it that no one is suggesting for a class 91 to come. Because if its the latter you'd be very wrong. But I dont even blame other developers because what else can you really add to the ECML when almost everything on there are 80Xs between kings cross to at least doncaster, leeds or york. Between York and edinbrugh its still 80X. Aside from TPE Class 185 and Northern traction could be added. Its still LNER 80X and TPE 80X. Maybe can sell the class 221 (but thats still very scummy). So I agree LNER is just being, for a lack for a better word, a ***** for not allowing any developers to model the class 91 and mk4 and dvt. Its just the class 66 situation all over again. And i dont care what anyone saids on how expensive TSC. But honestly its now as expensive as TSW investment. You can already get the entirety of the WCML (in fact, so as GWML and ECML) with the exception of lines such as in the Southern region and MML (still lacking St Pancras to Leicester) there. speaking of which, now that the SWR lines and routes are ran under GBR. How is that being handled supposedly for licensing?
DTG themselves said that they wanted to do the 800 but LNER could only spare a 801 for them to look at and take references from on that particular day. So since they couldn't get 800 references (the diesel engines are rated at a different power output, the 801's emergency engine shares more with the uprated 802 engines), they got the 801 to work from and it was the 801 that they were forced to make. It wasn't anything to do with a lack of support or any ulterior motives, it was purely the fact that on the day DTG arranged to visit LNER's depot, all the 800s were out at work so they couldn't gain access to one. What I imagine is more the case is that their license and support extended to more broadly the LNER Azuma as a model and brand, and that includes the 800 and 801 in equal measure. From that angle, LNER's full support was likely given, considering that other operators have given them far less in the past. There is a reason, for example, that the 700 on DC, the 380 and the 350 on AC all use the same set of 350 recordings, as was stated by Matt in the original preview stream for the 700.
yeah Im with whats been said before. ECML is just dull. On the WCML we have a lot of great cities and stunning views. ECML is just long, flat sparse and incredibly dull. The one ECML route in game is a snoozefest Other than north of York (which is a lovely station) just look how dull the route is.
If they did an ECML section around Leeds-Darlington-Doncaster (not necessarily all in one DLC, just generally any routes in this area), you’ve got a lot of variety in rolling stock & operators. Certainly at least as much variety as the WCML sections currently offer. Also the route out of KGX is essentially an eastern copy of WCMLS, just for other ToCs. Personally I wouldn’t mind any of the above. The 3 modern sections we have on the WCML are basically as good as it gets for gameplay variety, with the Watford DC lines, MAC & Crewe-Bham corridor. The only exciting thing we can really hope for now is the NWC section. Everything else is just going to be similar to the ECML section we have, in terms of gameplay.
Newcastle to Edinburgh is the logical choice for the most scenic section of the ECML, well north of Chathill anyway, but is too long for an all in one TSW route.
Kings Cross to Peterborough (depending if they could cope) adding Hitchin To Cambridge would work for the ECML. Bit less dull on that section.
As earlier mentioned, it will also be how cooperative a TOC is. If you have someone like Avanti who are open to giving you access to depots, routes, traction then it’s going to be easier to develop. All of this is based off contracts with the TOCS and some such as LNER, EMR may not be cooperative as of right now
I would like Doncaster to Leeds, personally. Get a bit of variety there between Northern stoppers with either a 331 or 333, plus a 150 with services that go off map to Sheffield, and then the obvious LNER service. Plus throw in a Voyager layer (albeit mostly just between Leeds and Wakefield) too
