The new physics likely require certain upgrades to the existing steam engines model etc. before you could even try to implement them. Its also possible for the old engines to be set up in a way which makes rebuilding them from scratch more reasonable than upgrading them. Looking at the best case scenario, it would be just changing the system to the TSG one and then making adjustments to make it work, altough it probably still would need to be done by another 3rd party for various reasons. 1. TSG already confirmed to not do the job, which is understandable. 2. DTG has nothing to do with said changes (why would they? its just their own game and nothing more) 3. This is far away from being a simple task and also from being a copy paste situation. What i think could happen is a route with a new steam engine made by a UK 3rd party like JT and them adding a upgraded 8F and 4F to the pack, with both of them being able to substitute into old routes. This way you would also get features like suspension etc.
If those existing steam locos were included with a new steam era route or gameplay pack they would need their physics updated to the new physics system and no they wouldn't be free to exiting owners as that's not how that would work
If DTG change the locos to incorporate new controls and physics it would not only require the work on the locos but potentially rewriting the existing scenarios as well. There are four locos to do at significant cost and no new income stream from making the changes. I don’t see them going back to such old content to add in the new core systems that TSG will have made. They don’t generally go back and make changes and as steam is one of the least popular types of content in TSW it will not be a priority for them in any way. They ditched steam remember. I can’t see them spending development money on it now. The accountants would want to see a return and there wouldn’t be one to show them.
It doesn’t stop them or 3P’s layering the “old content” on new routes as railtours though, to try and increase sales or appeal. Personally I want to see a “can do” attitude from DTG on this. They took a fortune off us for SoS and PFR and as I’ve said previously, if they can afford to retain the plush office accommodation at Chatham then there’s money to spare for improvements to what shouldn’t have been left in such a dire state in the first place. Apart from the derailment bug creeping in, SoS desperately needs revisiting with a better timetable and the route bringing up to TSW6 standards. Once the Journey mode is complete, there are hardly any Crewe to Liverpool or vv passenger workings left to actually attempt!
I'd guess if anything TSG or another third party could do the "update" for a few bucks and then offer you the option to "upgrade" to the new model. To be fair you have a functioning model already in game that's fine. So this would just be a "more realistic" option and they didn't give everyone the expert 101 for free. This gives people the option to keep the old ones if they want.
I'm not 100% sure at present, I'm not a fan of a lot of the faults on the DTG stuff, most being rather unrealistic to say the least. Very few of them are even applicable to a steamer anyway. Most steamers the faults generally boil down to either poor design, poor maintenance or user error (forget to oil a bearing which promptly runs hot for example). So if their are faults it would probably be more in line with the Advanced locos with a emphasis on you forget something its your fault, rather than X randomly deceides to break every X minutes press y to magically fix.
One thing at a time if you ask me. Fix the physics first and get it working properly. Then you can look to add bells and whistles.
Bold prediction for next years core UK route… Newcastle to Leeds with York as a focal point and the deluxe loco being steam, probably the mallard.
The rate at which these faults occur is far too high as well. You’d think the world’s railways were on their last legs if TSW6’s faults were anything to go by. I don’t get the calls for them to be added to other stock like the 802 and TfW Pacer when they aren’t ironed out in the trains that do have faults instated. I’ll be quite happy if they are omitted from DB BR23. Getting the steam simulation to a good place is likely a big enough task by itself.
Not really a 'fault' as implemented in TSW6 I suppose, but towards the end of steam you'd often get steam leaking everywhere as locos became less well maintained. Perhaps if we do ever get a transition era route, there could be a random amount of steam leaking? Maybe if it's a Western region route, you could also have chance of some locos where the cabside plates and names had already been pinched!
One effect I would like to see and indeed applicable also to boiler fitted diesels, is steam heating. Typically steam would leak out of the connecting hoses between coaches and underneath the vehicles and out the vent at the back of the rear coach. I had hoped this would be introduced with SoS or PFR but never happened.
That would be a great feature for winter runs, certainly at least the 45 and 40 could do with steam heat equipment. If we do get a NTP remaster, that would be an essential feature to add.
Random (unlikely) gauge glass failures would be nice, requiring you to isolate the glass and continue either with the other glass on most locos, or the test cocks if we ever got any GWR steam.
If we get a tank engine in the future I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a GWR Pannier. I’d be very happy with that.
@VictioryWorks: You did truly a great job so far. When I look back in wat you have done so far for TSC is truly brilliant. Now for the Flying Scotsman I would like to see an update for that engine because the AWS doesn't work as it should be. The yellow rose doesn't vanish on approach of a green signal. I am very satisfied so far with the other engines. There is simply a Hugh lack of steamers in TSW and most of the routes are far to modern and therefore extremely annoying. There is no soul, no style, no thrill, no excitement, no sweet and blood in modern stock. No happiness in driving from signal to signal. What you did and already in TSC is bringing that thrill what lacks the modern stuff. The coming of the Class 23 made by TSG is of great value. Most of the developers didn't listen to the German community for the years of requesting for German steamers and there is where TSG kicks in. I think it won't be the last but just the start of the steam era to come.
Matt was interviewed on TrainSimPlay the other day and the question was raised about what may possibly be done with the steam fixes; (@23:00)
Summary from Matt: "Once I've had a chance to look at it, we'll see." Which kind of surprised me that TSG hasn't shared anything with DTG up to this point. Not even a basic explanation on how it works. From then he adds that once they understand how the system works, then they'd have to decide whether to adapt it, and then develop an interface if they do decide to do that. So.... in short don't expect any of the older stuff to be updated anytime soon. It's just a vague "idea" at this point. That also sadly means that you won't get new non-TSG steam either from DTG. Now another third-party like All Aboard or Just Trains or Skyhook could give it a go, but DTG won't do anything until they "get a better look" TSG's which they haven't seen. It makes sense from TSG's perspective to keep it proprietary or license it to DTG to use. Would also make sense from DTG's perspective to just license what TSG already built....provided the DTG team finds it's of decent quality. (Then again bean counters can often get involved and decide "we can do it better and save a few pennies." We're assuming TSG's implementation will be "good" of course. Given how long it takes to develop any new locomotives, don't expect anything soon outside of TSG's BR 23.
Happy to wait if I know more will be coming in the future. What really annoyed me was the absolute radio silence on anything steam related and then all the posts/replies from people saying ‘steam is never coming back’ as if that was gospel. I knew if we kept asking for it then it would be harder to ignore. So grateful TSG are having a crack at it and I am willing them to make every success of it.
I mean the alternate explanation is we are nowhere near done yet so until we are there is nothing really to share! Some fixes will be alternate components inside simugraph to maintain backwards compatability while allowing us to make improvements, other changes may technically apply retroactively but require some minor changes to work, while some just will apply retroactively. Until we are done we won't know exactly the extent of all the changes required. Just an example of a change we made yesterday was we fixed the water consumption of a debug firing mode which is a change that should apply retroactively, so locos like Flying Scotsman should now consume water from the tender (instead of so miniscule amount it basically doesn't).
I was surprised too. The suggestion in another thread was that this was a collaborative effort between TSG and DTG or at least that TSG could only have done this using Simugraph under DTG's close supervision. Clearly this is not the case. And you're right. If DTG doesn't own this new " technology ", it makes it less likely that we'll see any more steam locos in the near future, except from TSG.
"DTG's close supervision" may mean Lukas, who works for both outfits We have no idea what the IP and licensing provisions of the contract are
Just to shorten the path of suspicious wrong thinking, even if i am not part of the "Steam Team", SimuGraph® is part of the core engine of TSW ,deeply integrated and owned by DTG and registered as a trademark. So any change to any aspect of it, no matter who is doing it, will end up in the core anyways. And it's fine that it is this way. So anyone can benefit from those additions and updates, and i support it (again, even if i am not involved into the steam locos, yet). Eventually the simple answer to questions about if it will be 'compatible' to other potentially created or updated steam locos is highly a Yes, what does not automatically means existing locos will receive any updates. That's on behalf of their creators.
So it's a change to the core itself, and not just a layer on top using the existing input/output? That's not clear from the stream.
The additions are made to the core system, but they will (mostly) not replace the current functionality. So if a existing steam loco uses for example a existing firebox functionality it will not automatically benefit from the new added firebox functionality. So you can see it as a layer on top, yes, but not like a add-on layer. It'ts more comparable to a versioning system.
Well it looks like if you bark loud enough you will get heard. Will it make a difference though because it’s a German steam locomotive. The UK steam scene wasn’t appealing enough for the masses, hence why it didn’t sell well enough for DTG to make more steam content. Maybe TSG can create something truly special for all the steam lovers out there.
Still inaccurate the uk steam didn’t sell because they were badly done nothing to do the masses not liking it. hell they would have never update spirt of steam if people hated it, also DTG could have fixed it but they couldn’t be bothered to put some money towards fixing and holding their promises
I'd say that's totally opinion, Star. The "masses" didn't really buy it. But, a significant minority did. Of the ones that bought it, the majority seem to have been ok with how the first generation steam were done. The minority complained. So.... what Double Yellow said is kind of accurate. There were sales...but not a "huge seller." I wouldn't claim steam was either a "big" seller or "didn't sell" just.... sorta in the middle.
If the majority liked it I doubt that Peak Forest wouldn't have bombed as hard as it did. Personally I suspect SoS sold very well, but the deficiencies on the route in terms of traffic and simulation quality probably tanked the route for those who bought it. This in turn led people to not turn out for Peak Forest, because of the stink from the prior route. If you keep up with other forms of media you'll hear this stuff all the time, where a sequel comes out, does well, but poor reception causes the next film to tank. The example that comes to my mind is the Star Trek reboot films, and it's a interesting example of how much a bad sequel can impact a follow up even if the next one is a step up. Into Darkness had a pretty mixed reception, but did very well and a third film was green-lit. Meanwhile Beyond was considered a vast improvement, yet that film bombed hard enough to put the 4th film into limbo that I think it's still technically in a decade on. From what I gather conscious was that its bombing was a delayed reaction to the second film more than as a reaction to the third for that reason. Lot of people who did see it loved it, notably including people that weren't fans of the rest of the reboot series. Goes to show just how much prior impressions matter, you sell people a badly received product and lot of people ain't going to give you another chance.
The masses didn’t like it because it was poorly implemented and that’s why it failed. Speculation, but we also don’t know the sales figures for each individual route. X amount sold. That could have also impacted their decision to abandon it.
If only DTG publicly released sales data then we’d know for sure. I personally didn’t think it sold well, steam only caters to a very niche group of people. I personally have no interest in it myself and wouldn’t buy another steam route even if it was heavily discounted.
The point was it sold enough for a update to tsw 3 standards which most routes of the tsw 2 era didn’t get clearly shown a huge interest which was mainly destroyed after the fact they stopped trying to fix a few problems with it hence why peak forest has the same problems despite them saying they were fixing them at the time
Believe what you want. It doesn't really matter now. They've said what they've said. Don't expect anything else in the near future. A year from now... maybe 2 years from now sure. Until then you can enjoy German steam. Which you should buy if you want to show you love and want more steam in the game.
Exactly, that’s what I meant also. The interest from the player base died from the lack of attention to detail by DTG. A poor implemented product impacted the sales. I think DTG were just remaining hopeful that steam would do well, that’s why they updated it to TSW3 standards. After the back lash they washed their hands of it.
Late response, but the only dev that could do it justice would be Smokebox, but I don't think Smokebox would develop for TSW with the base stream physics being as bad as they are. Hell, I remember when he got upset at DTG when an update to TSC messed up the steam physics of his locomotives.
Technically they've done it again I believe, his products I think are among the ones in TSC right now that got back dated to older, broken versions for some random reason. Been going on since October and DTG have yet to do anything about it, it's kind of sad how low priority TSC has became at this point.
I suspect SOS sold well, there was a lot of excitement on here at the time. However it had faults, bugs and a poor timetable not at all reflective of the traffic on the line. That is where things went wrong in my opinion. Why would they have upgraded the lighting to TOD4 if it had been a flop. I suspect if it had been a flop they wouldn't have bothered with PFR. I suspect PFR hasn't sold as well. However no-one knows for sure so I don't see how anyone can make blanket statements either way as we don't know. I still think steam can be a success on TSW, whether it is UK, USA or German. It needs to be done right in the first place and then not abandoned, which is basically what happened. There was so much talk on the initial steams for both SOS and PFR for potential DLC, it never came to fruition. I trust TSG to do a very good job and I will be buying this route for certain, I would have anyway. Hopefully this will spur on a renaissance for steam content, even if it small.
Matt actually said on a stream soon after Spirit of Steam released that it did sell extremely well - The highest selling add-on in TSW at the time of it's release. Obviously a lot has changed since then, the player base has grown so naturally sales figures for newer add-ons would grow with it. Steam coming to TSW was a HUGE event, DTG put a lot of marketing hype into it with dedicated articles, livestreams showing off their progress and research, not to mention the teaser videos being of much higher budget. Nothing following has come close to being as big of an event as steam traction, not even close. Look at this teaser just talking about just the audio for an example, DTG really went all out on it: The problem is that for all that hype built, the end product did not meet the expectations that DTG raised within the community. In a livestream before Peak Forest launched, DTG said while some work had been done since SoS for the 4F, the physics in the 8F and Jubilee remained the same as SoS. This put a lot of people off... Which is truly a shame, Peak Forest was a well built route and still holds up as one of the best UK routes from a scenic standpoint. Steam can be successful, there's a community in TS Classic that focus on steam locomotives and there's some amazing content there. If DTG and TSG work out a solid foundation for steam traction, maybe some of these third parties will think about upgrading from TS Classic to TSW? Just need to see how things pan out.
