I love the WCML Shap route and I think Just Trains have done a fantastic job, as they have with Blackpool and as I am sure they will with the two upcoming routes. However, I have just seen something which for me as an enthusiast of the era it is set in, really ruined the immersion for me. I have got used to seeing the class 40 on the route, one seems to turn up nearly every time I run it, but usually on a parcels service or parked up somewhere. However doing a shunting service around Carlisle, I could hear the distance whistle of a class 40, and what do I see a class 40 on a southbound cross country service in Carlisle station, made up of air conditioned mark 2 carriages. Whilst I am sure in the event of a failure a none ETH fitted loco on air conditioned stock might not have been impossible to see, I would say it would be unlikely. I am sure the operating department would certainly have tried to avoid it on a hot June day which is what the time of year and weather was set to. And of course in 1986 if this did happen it would not have been a class 40. This is almost as bad a seeing a class 110 on Dostos stock. On Blackpool branches I can disable the class 40, I wonder why on this route Just Trains seem to have set the layers up differently. Maybe it was essential for this route I don't know? But the only way I can remove the class 40 from the Shap route is by removing the Leeds to Manchester layer from the timetable which removes many services.
I see both sides on this... On one hand the 40s were practically out by the time the route is set, added to that they weren't regulars (IIRC). So simply removing the layer that can ruin it for the hard core enthusiasts (I include myself in that statement) is a simple answer. However, I do feel JT included the Class 40 as a layer because of the community feedback on locomotives not being utilised or completely forgotten about. My personal opinion (again I'm not saying I'm right, it is completely subjective), is I do welcome it on the few services it has as it sort of fits in with other locomotives of the era and gives it a bit of a stretch compared to the Northern Transpennine route. If we ever get a route set in the appropriate era for the 40, I'd certainly turn the layer off myself. But I don't mind it and like giving it a little stretch of its legs and a good bit of clag every so often. So yeah I can see both sides (for and against) on this one. Although for me I would absolutely love a BR Blue Class 56 on WCMLOS and BPO!
All you need to do is imagine it’s 1981 rather than 1986 and all will be well! I’m hoping both Preston to Crewe and Carlisle to Whitehaven make good use of the Class 40, just a bit of artistic licence really. Same if we ever got a 25 - by the mid eighties they had all but gone, but I would love to hear that Sulzer rasp coming and going at the principal locations or even turning up on the train I’m working.
I agree, seeing the wrong trains is an immersion killer, but I also get why it is done in most instances. I like it when a developer clearly defines the era or year a route is set and that both the timetable and route scenery matches that as close as possible. If anything it pleases the history nerd in me which is a big reason why I like historic routes in the first place. I can let it slide with the 40 though as it is not too far away from being realistic and not the main attraction on the route. I have seen some people suggesting a Class 90 with the MK3 DVTs though. If that where made, I really hope a new timetable is created as I don't think MK3 DVTs fits together with the Class 40s.
I haven't a problem with them including it, I just wish I could remove it. It was seeing it on a train of aircon stock which of course it wouldn't have worked with which was why I found it egregious.
Well I could but then the liveries are wrong. And how often did a class 40 turn up in June with a rake of aircon mark 2's on a cross country service. I also noticed an intercity liveried class 47 on NTP. If something similar happened on a modern route there would be a ten page thread about it. The class 25 was still around in 1986 and there were still some at Kingmoor.
There’s few routes in the north of England where a class 40 couldn’t turn up in fairness, maybe not as frequent aa in game but for me it’s not a game.breaker but I totally get and respect it is for you. As a work around (assuming) you are on PC I’d suggest just moving the BR Heavy Freight DLC pak file out of the folder when you are playing WCMLOS if the no substitution toggle still allows the 40 to spawn. Out of interest did the 45 peak every actually venture up the WCML
I'll try that when I get back home. BPO was the one for me, I wanted to take the 142 out and imagine it was 1982, but to remove it takes the all the dmu services out 101 as well. It dose kill the immersion some what.
Rarely if ever in reality, as discussed previously BR at the time were pretty much obsessed with not diesel hauling anything under the wires when even the most rancid, run down Class 81, 82, 83 or 85 were available to do the duty. Although very common at Carlisle, mainly confined to the S&C or GSW routes. Unlikely the crews in the WCML links would have the requisite traction knowledge. I don’t think they were even that common working freight on the Newcastle line.
Same really i remember seeing class 40s in Preston in the 80s, although they were not common they were hardly uncommon either, pulling either coaches or double-headed on freight, if anything the class 31 is underused on that route same with the 20.
I'm with you on the 40s thing. However, I also use it as an argument for those - like me - who want to see the class 90 on it. If JT can fudge the era for the 40, I don't see why there can't be a fudge the other way for an IC 90*. *Of course, there are no plans for the IC 90, which to me is a shame as I prefer BR passenger over modern freight any day of the week.
Yeah, it'd be weird not seeing at least one 40 in the Workington stabling point. In my day you could count on 2, occasionally 3, with a couple of 25s and 47s as well as the station pilot.
Unfortunately removing the heavy freight pack also removes the Carlisle trip workings from the timetable but thanks for the suggestion.
Well it would be weird seeing one in 1986, however I take your point. I understand why JT included them and I don't disagree with their decision, but on Blackpool they can be removed without affecting the timetable, which suits everyone, for some reason it has been set up differently on Shap so the class 40 cannot be disabled on its own, unless I am being particularly dense and am missing something. But maybe on this occassion JT had no choice. I had got used to ignoring them when one would pop up on a freight or stabled somewhere, but seeing one heading a rake of air conditioned stock was the final straw I am afraid yesterday.
Yes of course. Having looked at the passenger services the class 40 could appear on there only seems to be a handful so maybe I am making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. I have just had a run on a class 31 and ballast train up to Shap which was wonderful experience and not a class 40 in sight!
It's rather easy to get nerdy and say that this class or this number would never have been never spotted at Carlisle on a Wednesday with a full moon in 1986, but I think JT were looking more to create a route (or routes) with a mid-eighties 'feel' than anything else. Every period in railway history is a transition of sorts from one thing to another, so let's enjoy the mid-eighties with it's fading 1st-gen diesels, new gen 'leccies, and the variety of old and new liveries. I would not worry too much about seeing a class 90 and a 40 or 25 together in the sim, because 2 years either side of '86 had them all. Just try and go with the flow and soak up the nostalgia that JT have very kindly provided us with!
Those UK players who are familiar with the rolling stock and route in question are entitled to critique the choices made by the developer. I did the same when the F7 showed up out of its time on Cajon Pass hauling those ridiculous itty- bitty freight consists, but I doubt anyone outside the US cared much and just played it anyway. And the DLotGW ruffled some feathers, but many of us enjoy it. Those of us outside the UK who don't have much familiarity with WCMLoS are quite content to see additional stock on the route, player trains or AI, and if the inclusion of the Class 40 is somewhat driven by artistic license, it really doesn't matter. It's a nicely modeled loco that adds to the period ambience. In the end, TSW is produced for a wider audience than just knowledgeable players from one country.
You say that, but kind of hard to say that is for fact true when it is to the date the last transition era diesel in the game. If anything kind of suggests that it may not have actually done particularly well when all was said and done if they never did it again. Same could be said about the fact DTG never did another pack like Great Western Legends. That's rather redundant to say, that's true of pretty much anything, you could probably find people who want to bring back asbestos and lead pipes if you tried hard enough. I can also think of some games that objectively bombed quite hard that still have people who vocally love it. Metroid: Other M is always my go to example, objectively made extremely stupid game design and story choices. And bombed hard enough to put the franchise on ice for half a decade, even so far from a universal hated game. There's also those of us who do understand it's slightly out of era, but just don't care because it's only slightly out of it. Like I'm just saying, 40's were still a thing elsewhere, them operating on there for one weird reason or another isn't too outlandish. There's all sorts of weird cases IRL of trains associate with one place being know to have appeared briefly elsewhere. Them appearing a bit less would be nice granted, but frankly in the grand scheme of things it's a nothing burger issue compared to the many other dire ones this title has.
This thread lead me to have a look at the Class 40 services available on WCMLOS and then come across some yard work with it at Carnforth including an area I didn’t realise had any timetabled services (the sidings at the start of the Furness line). This lead to a bunch of those “hidden” services once I’d finished the first one, so had a great time with it.
The very curious case during the great winter blizzards of 1990 of a WCML express being diverted from Crewe towards Hereford instead of Euston. Arrived at Hereford diesel hauled but with the Class 86 AC electric, pan down, still dead inside the leading engine! Can’t recall where it went after Hereford. Probably ECS to Willesden via Maindee and the Severn Tunnel etc.
Given we don't have all the locos and units that would have run on WCMLOS in game, and that Whistlers would have have been around in numbers a couple of years previously, I put it down as 'unrealistic but beneficial for gameplay'. It's like how I agree with the developers that including neutral section boards adds to gameplay. There wouldn't have been any on that part of the WCML, even by the early 90s. Ironically for Preston to Crewe, the remodelling of Crewe a year before the route is set gave a number of class 40s a stay of execution as departmental locos (class 97s) until 1987. It's a nicely detailed loco and adds a bit of variety. But I also agree it would be nice if it was on a separate layer if possible to give the option of turning it off.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nZ-E5HLQu18b9Zx4LMVCmY/edit?pli=1&gid=0#gid=0 There are a few more hidden class 40 run in this spread sheet I did. I thought I'd lost this a while back but ill look into getting it finished most of it is done I think I was just missing some of the class 87/86 and the 08 services
I remember back in the days of Virgin loco hauled services, either a 90 or 87 (I think a 90) wasn't detached at Crewe on a Holyhead service and made it as far as Llandudno Junction before someone realised and took it off. I think it was tucked behind the 47.
