Dovetail Games Expert Br 145 Q & A

Apart from the T3000e wagons which, as clarified in a previous post, cannot get suspension because they are articulated wagons (like the Sggmrss), will the remaining rolling stock (Habbiins etc.) get the active suspension feature?
(Although some German DMUs are articulated and have active suspension!).

 

Will we be able to connect jumper cables manually?

Can the sliding walls on the Habbiins be opened?

 

Does the 145 introduce a completely new timetable for Dresden-Leipzig, or simply layer onto the existing timetable?

If it is a completely new timetable, will the expert 101 be required to get the 101 services on Dresden-Leipzig, or will the normal 101 provide a substitution if the expert 101 is not owned?

The same questions also apply to BRO and SRM.

 

1. Has there been a way to implement suspension that works with the advanced physics unlike the 101?

 

I can answer this. Unfortunately none of the wagons (or the loco) will have suspension enabled on release. The reasons for these differ a bit but I'll go over them.

For the wagons (that aren't permanently articulated like the Sggmrss and t3000e) I decided to disable it because the primary suspension has really ugly effects when you couple (the whole wagon bounces wildly as it settles to the equilibrium position). This effect isn't really possible to avoid with primary suspension (suspension of the axle box in relation to the bogie) and since coupling is such a primary feature of the DLC I felt it was better to disable it until I could find a solution.

Fortunately I have managed to find a reasonable compromise in enabling secondary suspension instead (bogie-body suspension) which has much less visible bouncing as the wagon becomes "live", but still looking realistic as the wagon is moving. This will be enabled on the Habbiins and Zacns for the first patch post release.

For the Sggmrss and t3000e as I mentioned before this is simply not supported by TSW core suspension physics for these types of wagons. The reason why it works on articulated multiple units is because they have air suspension and that works even with articulated units.

For the BR 145: This is a bit trickier. I found during the development of the BR 101 Expert a bug in the suspension physics where it causes bad numerical artifacts on inverters (since these have a feedback loop between the stator frequency and the rotor frequency) which makes tractive effort move in a "robotic" and unrealistic fashion which to me is unacceptable. I have reported this issue but it's not easy to solve so for the BR 145 I decided to do some "hacks" (that are actually more prototypical as a side effect) to the way tractive effort is displayed on the gauges that prevents this unrealistic effect. Unfortunately I had to triage this as there were more critical issues (and features) that needed to be fixed/finished for release but I'm hopeful that I will be able to implement this and re-enable suspension on the BR 145 at the same time as the wagons.

I will also see if I can backport these changes to the BR 101 Expert (which has suspension disabled for the exact same reason), though don't expect that as quickly.

 

The BR 145 Expert comes with a new "Expert" timetable for Dresden-Leipzig. This timetable also replaces the standard BR 101 with the BR 101 Expert and the Bpmmbdzf cab car (either drivable depending on service and direction).

None of the BR 145 Expert services depend on the BR 101 Expert, but if you don't own the BR 101 Expert you won't be able to play any IC services. Substitution only works if you have access to the layer (i.e. all the dependency rolling stock is installed).

 

Okay, I understand the difficulties you're encountering, but unfortunately, for me, suspension is a key feature.
I'll wait for any fixes (if any).
Thanks for your reply.

 

I hope DTG and TSG can take criticism on board and work together to deliver a quality product next time, that has all the features of previous content.

cwf.green your explanations are pretty clear that even this pack from the most reputable 3rd party team is driven by the deadlines and not the existing feedback of customers, or fixing the underlying core systems which a 3rd party cannot always do. While as a dev myself I can understand that there is nothing that you could do at this point, but try your best. This is a failure of the selection process.

For me the new timetable for Dresden-Leipzig is the biggest showstopper of the pack. The pack was announced literally at the same time as the home DLC so the timetable could have been done to accomodate services from the get-go. The dependency for IC services on the 101 Expert version is utterly hilarious. You are expecting a customer to buy another full expert priced stock just to have a layer for which in the original timetable you could have a heavily discounted piece of content. Assumption is that it is all because of the cabcar and formation differences not even allowing substitution.

I am sorry but as a buyer of every single german content piece, and enjoyer of deep simulation, this DLC is not for me, not at this price and with limitations already known, unless it goes for -70% which based on the other TSG products, will never happen.

The 101 Expert service pack already violated a core paradigm DTG had, that they will not do DLC for a DLC, and the pack with extra services and timetable did not include the stock itself.

As the end customer, I don't really care about the reasoning of cost of the dev time, if a product is unsustainable to be launched in finished state from the get-go, that product should not exist, however sad that might be. Instead both DTG and TSG misled customers for 10 months by staying silent about limitations, to do now a rugpull as usual before release. All legal, but highly immoral, and damaging to the customers trust. My money this month will most likely go to Vector Simulations team instead, TSG hasn't earned my trust this time.

 

What are you on?
You are complaining about an expert timetable making use of all available expert stock?
If you want to drive IC services, the normal TT still exists.
Not to mention you said you own all german dlcs, so you should have the 101 expert, no?

Regarding your point about the original timetable to not support the 145 in the first place, what is your logic here?
Complaining about expert IC services depending on the 101 expert, just to wish for the original timetable to be limited in order to add the 145 later?

You are a developer? For what? A roblox game?

 

I seem to remember that there was a discussion somewhere around licensing for the trailers on the T3000 Waggons. Obviously DHL was confirmed but in the original screenshots “LKW Walter” was also present. What had happened to this license?

I would be interested to learn how the timing in timetable mode is handled. How much time do I have to set up my train (and what kind of differences are there, ie has a train I take over from cold and dark has less time then a train I have to couple together…). Also, will signals start to turn green despite me still being in the middle of the preparations to set up the train (due to core limitations)?

Are there actually “cold and dark” trains in timetable mode (I really enjoyed those on KWG 101 expert TT).

I would be interested to see how the “Bremszettel” works in game. Is this dynamic and changes while my consist changes (ie coupling additional Waggons to my train) or is it static and linked to the service I am selecting? In case it is dynamic, is it limited to “expertified” (I really like this word) Waggons or does it always work with any rolling stock?

I would also like to see some of the external failures in action during the stream. Especially hot brakes and the effect of them. How do I identify them?! Maybe someone can talk us through potential consequences of mishandling certain aspects of the expert features during the stream. Are there more features we have not heard (or read) about? Maybe sloshing in the Zacns or something like that?

Any chance to get the manual released ahead of the loco itself?

 

To me the above is nothing but the decision to exclude the cabcar from the original 101, coming back to bite everyone.

I can see why people will be put off such a cost, but understand why the cost & certain decisions are there.

At the end of the day though the above insights have only put me off the pack, too many caveats for the most expensive content in the game.

 

Why is it acceptable to release a TSW6 product without including basic TSW4 features? On an expert loco!

Why is DTG rushing an unfinished product out the door once again? I thought the entire point of 3PPP was NOT to have that happen!?!

Why are the powers that be at DTG hiding from the forum (as usual) while putting the poor dev out here to catch strays for something beyond their control?

It's pathetic imo.

 

I can't answer any licensing questions as I'm sure you will understand

TLDR:
1. Timings are standard on "A-B" services that originated outside the route, but with the wagenliste & bremszettel (as well as automatic setup of brake mode selectors) this should speed up the preparation significantly.
2. The timetable has several "cold and dark" and shunting/yard departure services that require full startups of the locomotive and a full brake test of the train before departing or significant issues may arise.
3. For Expert wagons the wagenliste/bremszettel forms are updated dynamically in terms of the distributor cut-off state by intentional player actions. The wagenliste will display most German wagons in the game (both passenger and freight) with accurate data and computations.
4. Brake distributor can become stuck leading to applied brakes that overheat. These are indicated via GSMR either as a direct call or emergency broadcast.
5. Brake pads can get iced over during winter which needs regular applications to warm up/remove ice or the stopping distance will increase significantly.

The timings are different based on services. Most of the services that start simulating either a driver change or "train was stopped at a signal with the same driver" will have the usual 2-3 minutes preparation time. Note that if the first 3-5 wagons are Expert wagons (which is essentially all services that aren't auto trains) they will be preset with the correct brake mode as per the rules depending on weight.

The brake modes are indirectly displayed on the "Wagenliste" (wagon list) chart of the formation by the braked weights being written in the "G" column or the "P" column (only for freight, for passenger wagons all available braked weights are written in the corresponding columns as is prototypical). So for example if the formation is in "LL" (first 3-5 wagons in G) you'd see these wagons have the braked weight written on the G column and the rest in the P column.

The "Bremszettel" (brake sheet) summarizes all the data and calculations giving the calculated braked weight percentage ("Bremshundertstel" - Brh) as well as minimum braked weight percentage ("Mbr") and missing Brh (in case the actual Brh is lower than the Mbr). This can happen if for example the formation has brakes cut out. If this is the case the columns with the braked weights have a line dashed through them, for that wagon. You can actually cycle the timetable maximum allowed speed on the bremszettel and the Mbr will update correspondingly based on that route. You can also cycle between the so called "Fahrplan G" and "Fahrplan R/P" to get different Mbr and Brh (based on different penalties for each case etc).

Since the Bremszettel gives you the Brh it should be a quick process inputting the train data.

Back to the timings. The timetable has several "cold and dark" and train preparation services (and there are scenarios and tutorials going through these situations). Common examples would be when you depart with a new train from Dresden Friedrichstadt or change locomotive. Usually locomotives are shut down when not used so you'll need to perform a full startup, then shunt to the train and couple to the wagons.

Note: for these services it is critical that you do a brake test once coupled since (with Expert Mode enabled) the formation can have "flaws" such as angle cocks closed, brakes cut out (that was not intended by the "wagenmeister"), hand brakes applied or empty/load switches in the wrong position. If you depart without performing the brake test it is possible that only part of the train has a connected brake pipe to the locomotive (things will go very badly if you try to brake such a train). You will also need to set up the brake mode selectors yourself. There is usually plenty of time between starting the locomotive and the departure time of the train.

The Wagenliste and Bremszettel are semi-dynamic (if you cut out a brake this will update the wagenliste, but if the brake cut out "by mistake" by the previous driver as with the above mentioned type of services this won't show on the wagenliste so you'll need to walk the train and check that everything is correct). This is only supported on the Expert wagons since it requires vehicle setup.
Most German wagons in the game are supported in the sense that they show up on the wagenliste (even going back to old routes like Ruhr-Sieg Nord). I can't promise every wagon in the game will show up (and definitely not UK or US wagons) but do let me know if you find something missing and I will add it. I think I covered basically all of them.

Regarding external faults: if a brake gets stuck and the brake pads start to overheat this can be seen as a heat haze effect around the wheel. There is also GSMR calls by the dispatcher (Fdl) informing you of this (not instantly, but we simulate this as hot brake detectors at regular distance intervals). If the brakes are warm there is a normal direct call, while if the brakes are hot the Fdl will make an emergency call.

Features not mentioned: Not sure if ice on brakes have been mentioned? In winter times it is imperative that you make a "snow brake" application every 20 minutes or you may end up with significantly lower brake force than expected since all the wagons have composite brake pads which are more prone to these failures compared to cast iron. Also not sure if battery fuses being interactive and part of the fault simulation was mentioned?

 

Moving forward: how will the BR 145 be integrated in timetables?
Will it come in non-expert timetables as a substitution to regular freight locos? What about passenger services?
Will the expert wagons come only in expert timetables?
Will expert timetables be made for every german release where the 145 is realistically expected to be driveable?

You get where I am going, so if you can expand on your timetable plans, that would be great

 

Are there any plans to add the new Czech goods cars which will release with Liberec - Star Paka to the database for Bremszettel and Wagenliste? I can imagine that people want to haul Czech cars from Dresden to Leipzig since many will have gotten to Dresden from Czechia via the Elbe valley Line first.

 

I had exactly the same thought as Puddington Bear , I believe the Czech waggons will find its way into German DLC in the near future

Not sure if this is possible, maybe this could be shown during the stream?! I am assuming you can not force certain faults to appear, right? In this case it would be difficult (or a very long stream) to show this

The question is, how much time. Especially with an Expert loco this can be a pretty dynamic timespan. The reason I was asking for this was the experience I had on the KWG expert TT. There was also time to set up from cold and dark, however, the time was not enough for me in this particular instance (cant remember, however, there was a fault which I needed time to figure out). In the meantime the signal turned green and blocked all other traffic. I was hoping this kind of behaviour could be resolved by maybe splitting the service and it only progresses once the loco has truly been booted up, or you make a "Zugvorbereitungsmeldung" to progress in the time table and make the dispatcher wait until switching any signal to green.

 

Will the IC Cab Car be compatible with the 145?

 

Good question, but why? Although the 145 has on occasion been pressed into passenger service, it's way too slow for IC services (and I believe not organizationally possible, since DB Cargo owns the 145s and IC is Fernverkehr)

 

They used to haul IC services between Dresden and Chemnitz in 2012 I believe, and I'd like to recreate that.

 

That actually was possible by renting locomotives from other corporate branches. Something that wasn't necessary before 1994, but I don't want to get into more details on that matter since the stupidity of the whole organisation makes me want to punch a wall.

And I already had to put up a poster to cover one hole in it.

Anyway, I've got another question regarding the DLC:
Will we only get the plain RBH paint scheme or the wolfy one as well?

Also since the RBH license is acquired now, will it get put to use on other locomotives like the BR 143?

 

The 145 will be avalible as a subtitute loco for other loco's on about 12 other routes. However Expert wagons will only be available for expert timetables.
Hope this helps.

 

It’s all well and good saying X & Y will be fixed in a future patch, but when we’re still waiting for patches (which has been stated where submitted to DTG months ago) for BR 194 it doesn’t fill me with confidence that these will ever see the light of day.

The 145 is something I really want and an improved expert timetable for Dresden Leipzig has me excited, but I’m not sure given DTGs history for holding patches back that I can justify a purchase at this time sorry to say.

So as this is a Q&A thread my question to DTG is what is being done behind the scenes to streamline and speed up the process of releasing fixes please?

 

This comment should hopefully answer you first questions. As for your last question, in an ideal world (well sort of ideal, ideal under the constraints of players not being able to customize formations in timetables) we would make Expert timetables for all the routes that feature the BR 145 (or future locomotives), but as you can imagine that is quite a lot of work. Initially I will be focusing on the already existing Expert timetable "backlog".

Yes there are plans

I will talk with Lukas. You can force this fault simply by departing with the handbrake applied (or on Dako brake valve equipped wagons you could cut out the brakes since this will apply full service on that wagon, in contrast to KE-valve equipped wagons)

It's mainly 10 minutes (same as on the KWG Expert TT). It's a compromise between giving a reasonable amount of time but not letting quicker players wait too long. Maybe I can increase that if it turns out the majority of players need more. Regarding your suggestions, most of that is simply not possible without a core change to the dispatcher/timetable classes. We did a bunch of core changes to the game for this DLC (for the coupling feature) but these changes are "safer"/less impactful to other content. Actually changing the timetable logic by us is most likely not going to happen. That would require DTGs engineers. I would definitely love that as a feature but I have no say in whether that happens or not. Don't expect it unless DTG says otherwise.

There is potentially a way to "bodge" this, but it would have unrealistic side effects. If I added a "Go-Via" or "Go-To" instruction after the service starts, with dispatch beyond disabled, this would mean that the dispatcher only tries to reserve a path for you when you actually reach that waypoint. So if it takes you 20 minutes you would get the dispatched then and not before (but it could mean losing priority and having to wait 40 minutes - it's very chaotic). The downside is of course that it would require your to start moving (even if it was 2 meters) against a red signal.

Yes! Any cab car that is equipped with ZWS should be able to control the BR 145. We tested this on both the IC Cab car and also the Wittenberger and Dosto cab cars. The older cab car (Karlsruher Kopf) does not have ZWS iirc (just KWS) so that won't be compatible as IRL. In ZDS you should be able to drive in multiple traction with most locomotives that have this system (BR 101, BR 146.2, BR 185, BR 182 etc) but in ZMS only the BR 145 and BR 146.0 are compatible IRL (is what I've been told) so until/if a BR 146.0 makes it into the game the 145 will be the only thing that works in ZMS.

Only the non-wolfy RBH livery is included. As always don't expect anything else that isn't included on release but if you remember that we included the "#Einziganders" livery to the BR 101 Expert post release we are always interested in adding more liveries

I can't speak for how other locomotives are handled in terms of liveries and licenses (same goes for the DHL trailers), that is a question for DTG

I can definitely empathize with the frustration but we did have two very large post release patches on the BR 101 Expert (that added both features like new Expert timetables, adhesion simulation rework and the conductor door simulation, as well as bug fixes) so I do think we deserve some credit

 

It will be nice if you can make a expansion of this pack to the Traxx AC1 146.0 & 185.0 with the KVB mode and a french signaling system,In the future, are the 145 not so different from the 146.0 & 185.0? Right?

 

Please don’t think this comment was a dig at yourself or TSG in general. I think we all know where the delays lay. But I’m sure you can fully understand why players would be hesitant to purchase anything on the back of a future patch which could take months to arrive even once you’ve overcome the technical limitations of the core.

 

I totally understand! My advice (and my own personal philosophy) is to never purchase anything based on promises of future changes or improvements (and I do try to make that disclaimer anytime I talk about my plans for the future regarding something I am working on)

 

Love the amount of effort put into these explanations, definitely going to get the loco day 1. Cannot wait to get my hand on this!

 

Is some "touch the control" instruction available in timetable mode that could have the dispatch beyond flag hanged to itself? It could be fortunately mapped also to calling the dispatcher. If not, this should be somewhat easy to implement on DTG side, as it already exists for scenarios and just needs to be enabled to use in timetable.

To me it seems like a reasonable feature to implement overall, there are many occasions where you are only dispatched after you confirm to dispatcher that you are ready.

 

Unfortunately not. Believe me, nobody would be more happy than me if that was added to the game. Being able to actually simulate GSMR calls to the dispatcher to request permission to start the service etc would really enhance the realism in timetable mode (even better if it was included with free roam as well - though I guess technically you can just wait until you are ready before setting a path).

 

Has this locomotive been tested on consoles? Are the textures blurry?

 

It has been tested on consoles (Xbox). I have not seen any reports of blurry textures but best to ask during the stream if you can, Lukas will be much more knowledgeable in this area than me (and he did a lot of work on making the BR 145 Expert more efficient in terms of VRAM than the BR 101 Expert)

I guess if I can add my own (semi-informed) analysis then I would say that when it comes to blurry textures the main factor would be the route and timetable, since it's an accumulation issue (more unique trains = more VRAM usage) rather than something that is caused by a single train (unless it is seriously memory hungry).

 

It seems to be the case, understandably, that blurry textures (which are caused by visual asset/memory overload) are far more a function of the route than of any locomotive. I suppose it's the case that a more detailed train will take up somewhat more memory than a less detailed train, but it's all those trees and buildings that are the real culprits

 

Watch the live stream end is there a route where we can actually play it with passenger services

 

So what are they gonna charge for this dlc then.

 

No price and no release date yet.

It will cost 30+ € judging from the BR 101 Expert release 2 years ago.

 

Hello,

I am going to attempt to have it finished for early next week. It's been difficult to get it ready earlier than that because of...A lot of real life circumstances, but I should be able to get it ready in a few days.

A couple of notes about the 145 manual:

• Completely revamped writing style, it is now more focused on remaining concise, and delivering the information quicker with less text than previously. The 101 Expert manual was just far too dense.
• From now on, you will be expected to know how to operate a more complicated locomotive, and of course know about the safety systems. This is an Expert locomotive after all.
• Given the great English translations of the MTD screen which Foobs developed, and in which I also assisted with the translated fault resolution pages, I have also taken the decision not to include every single fault in this manual. It will only list internal faults not listed by the MTD screen as well as external faults.
• As a result, it will also be significantly shorter than the 101 Expert's manual. I do not have a final page count, but I expect about 100 pages worth, with the GSM-R chapter (unchanged from the 101 Expert manual) being the longest.
• Of course, the usual is there! A full list of controls and where to find them on the locomotive, training module, scenario and timetable information.
• If you want to have an overview of what is included in this DLC before purchasing, I am debuting a full list of features at the beginning of the manual!
• Checklists including full start-up (V1), full shut-down (A1), loco takeover (V3), securing before a takeover (A3), as well as the Freight Train Preparation and Brake Tests, and of course PZB/LZB and SIFA tests.
• I will have a full list of Destination IDs and instructions on how to enter a destination on the FT95 Passenger Information System, and the special announcements.
• Instructions on how to perform a manual coupling.
• A revamped train data explanation using the Brake Sheet and the Wagon List, in which I will also include a translated version with definitions matching those in game.
• An Index, which will be nearly identical to the 101 Expert, but I will add any new acronym and name that is introduced with the 145 Expert. I intend to just build the index with each manual I make.

There still is a bit of work to do, but overall I will say I am starting to prefer this manual a lot more compared to the 101 Expert's manual. Not that it was particularly bad, but when I see this manual...I really spent far too much time on way too many things, and ended up overdoing it. It was very difficult to use because it was just this big and dense, over 200 pages, inefficiently used. I really hope to one day upgrade it to match this one, but for now it's fine as is, it will serve as a good starting point for anyone looking into becoming an Expert Loco driver.

I really hope you all come to appreciate not just the manual, but the amazing work of the entire team at TSG. It is always a pleasure to work with them!
Hopefully see you soon with some good news about the manual.

 

Do we get a full list of all curcuit breakers?

 

What languages will be available for localization? I know the screens will be in English. But what about the buttons, levers, etc.?

 

While watching the stream, I saw an old bug with the spring texture. Will it be fixed?

 

Yes! Locomotive Controls -> Engine Room and each cabinet will have a table that lists each circuit breaker. This includes the 2 extra circuit breakers and the extra isolation switch of the NV version.