Wcml Preston To Crewe Discussion

Apprantley Earlestown is included assume Newton -le- willows is included too. But unsure what traction or services it entails.

 

Those stations mainly saw a mix of loco hauled (45s/47s) and DMUs 101 to 108 and 142s/150s.

 

Will we be getting 150s on this route or just 142s, 101s like stated.

Is the stopping points likely to be Warrington Bank Quay - Earlestown - (Newton-le-Willows) for what now is the Leeds to Chester route. As I'm sure Transport for Wales, TransPennine Express etc weren't a thing back in days of 1986.

Thought Blackpool North from / to Liverpool Lime Street but unsure.

Whats the section by Wigan North Western towards Wigan Wallgate currently on National Route toc guide map. Maybe be part of it or not.

Unsure what the collobaration is with All Abroard Studios for a seaminglees route between the now named Lichfield Trent Valley route. Has a route hop is just a route hop. Like at other stations such has London Paddington on GWE. Same with Brighton in East Coastway. Nothing special.

 

I'm afraid that the collaboration will simply mean agreeing on the route hopping marker's placement...
As I said in another thread, talking about "seamingless transition" is almost false advertising.
This is not "in-cab route hopping", it's even less a merge, in short, nothing new under the sun.

 

Era slightly too early and AFAIR the initial allocation in the North West was 150/1’s not the 150/2 which did not come off the production line until 1987.

 

Some 150/1s would be very nice to have in the sim (Maybe the 2 prototype /0s too, the Class 151 would also be super nice but not much reference material exists I'd imagine since both were scrapped)

 

Possibly there might have been a few Derby based units terminating at Crewe in 1986, but not enough really to warrant making an as built condition 150/1 for the route.

 

I still feel like it would be worth it, opens up possibilities for the future having another sprinter.

 

I suppose at a push...the WCL 150/2 could be used as an AI. I know it wouldn't fit the time period exactly but it wouldn't be too out of place.

Also, since the the WCL 150 was replaced by the GWR 150 on WSR, I think that makes it the only UK DMU that doesn't layer onto other routes.

 

If it was in Provincial livery it wouldn't be so bad but Regional Railways livery didn't come out till 1991 if I recall and it wasn't until around 1994 the Sprinters had received the livery in numbers.

As an aside I assume the class 40 will feature.

 

Agreed, the WCL 150/2 would look totally out of place with the later Regional Railways livery. While I think there's scope for a 150/1 in the future for another route, any potential provincial 150/1 run on this route would be very short indeed, I assume you won't be able to run much further than Crewe South junction.

 

If we get into the finer points of what is out of area there is also a lot of stock missing as TSW basically canned BR era DLC after Tees.

No class 304 EMU

No class 25 diesel

No class 81 to 85 eletrics

No Mk3 Sleepers

No class 56 diesel

No Class 37/0 varient (most numerous in the period)

No Mk1 GUV parcel vans

No other DMU than 142 and 101 (aware 108 is in pipeline)

No Speedlink type wagons VDA, VGA, OBA etc

No Cargowaggons

The list above is large but I am not critical of JT for not producing it but it would have been nice to have some of it. The Mk3 Sleepers is my bugbear as standing at Carlisle at night watching the trains is kind of spoiled by the Mk3 day coaches which would have been tucked up on depots usually at that time.

The Mk1 situation isnt great either. A great vehicle produced by JT for the Buffet version but a dubious one by Athena which I wont buy after seeing comments about it.

 

Ah that's true, I'd forgotten that. Still we've seen trains given liveries to help them fit in with routes, so I'd he happy to see it in original Provincial livery.

 

I'd say yes to all of those! That's why I posted my initial reluctance about this route way back on page 1 of this thread.
With only JT making content for this era - each new route needs a new train. I have not real interest in the Whitehaven route per se, but will get it for the 108.

Your list shows how much we need for just that era in TSW, but at the current rate developers release new rolling stock, we're looking a decade and TSW will have been replaced by then...

What I'd love to see JT do - or anyone competent really - is build a dedicated rolling stock pack. No route, just trains, but trains that can be added into their existing routes. Not one or two items, but a good few.
Imagine an 80s pack with a new EMU, DMU, diesel loco, electric loco and rolling stock/wagons in it with some improved timetables for existing routes?
I've hardly bought anything in TSW for a while, but I'd be "take my money!"

 

JT have some of the wagons done in TSC already. Is it that hard to port them over?

Your right on the speed of DLC releases. One or two BR era a year if we are lucky.

 

As much as I would love to see the Class 25, and there's a case to be made for how many were made, but I can see why there's no rush for it. There's quite a few "similar" engines in game (20, 31, 33, etc) that can fit that general niche.
If we're being honest, outside of maybe the 25, 56 and maybe 60....the UK rail scene is very well populated in TSW.
Most of the numerous locos that were at least say 75 to 100 made are included in some fashion.

If the route just has the locos included and possibly layers of locos already in game, I'm still satisfied as long as the route itself is decent.

 

As an enthusiast of the era, what we have it great but there was so much variety at the time that what we have barely touches the surface.

This isn't a criticism as there is a lot to add and JT have already advanced the cause but I hope we aren't finished with regards to potential DLC.

 

The 25 could feature on all JT routes. I do wonder if JT have a strategy which hasnt quite happened as planned. When they do produce something they dont skimp on detail. Nameplates and liveries for one. At least a freight 47 is coming as its much needed. I guess in MSTS and TSC we were spoiled and now as TSW is so hard to develop for we are seeing less and less DLC....

 

I think the 304 is going to be a potential tricky one as they handled a lot of local passenger trains out of Crewe, yet there aren't any services of a decent length on the route covered by JT. A good candidate for an AI only train I think if that's feasible for TSW.

 

In TSC we had proportionately more BR blue stock than routes which I always thought odd. MSTS was great for BR content as you say. I would happily pay a lot more than normal for a TSW version of the MSTS NWC with all that stock which was contained in it.

I do wonder where things will go after the Cumbrian coast. Will the change area or era. I hope they do look at some DLC along the way. As you say the 25 would suit all four of their routes so seems a no brainer.

 

It would be great to see one in the sim. I recall them around the West Midlands, they looked ancient back in the 80s. Would love to see a driveable one come with a route, Crewe to Liverpool would be great but it's been done so might not be so popular.

 

1st Gen AC EMUs were always underrepresented in TSC, I'd love to see that change in TSW although unlikely. A 304 could also run on the Manchester routes as a 'Retro' timetable. The Cross city line would also be a good candidate alongside the 101 and 108, representing the real mix of stock while the 323s had a troublesome introduction into service.

 

The 304 would get use with me. Could make some retro timetables for more modern routes. MAC a good candidate, as well as the more modern Crewe to Birmingham route and upcoming one via Rugby.

Could even create a scenario to recreate a famous incident from 1986(?) where one was sent to Carlisle. That'll be fun on Shap!

 

I used to love travelling on the Class 304 but I don’t know if there’s anything that survives that would be a good enough substitute for reference to make one for TSW or if there’s a way to make one from documentation alone. I’m not confident we’ll ever see it.

 

Maybe do a 308 instead, the coaches are slightly longer but they're the same Wolverton design, they (along with 305s) ended up replacing the 304s, there's a driving car in existence and there's a couple of routes down south that they'll come in useful for in the future.

 

Are any of those available and running to be used as a model?

 

There's no AC 1st gen EMUs running unfortunately, but I reckon something could be put together in terms of sounds from the 3rd rail 4 VEP or MLV battery unit, which has similar traction equipment minus a rectifier. I wonder what AP used for their 4-CEP pack as no CEPs are running?

 

I would love to see some Network Southeast southern region stuff, although then you have a the problem of needing a bunch of different EMUs to represent it.

 

While the situation with no vintage AC EMUs available to record apart from vehicles that are static displays is less than ideal, as mentioned above there are a few Southern EMUs that can still run. Classes 302/304/305/307/308/501/504 were all based on the Southern standard EMU design with many shared components, the 309s were essentially powered Mk1 coaches. We have coaching stock with "Commonwealth" and B4 bogies in TSW, so that's a start.

There are field recordings and cab ride videos of these trains in action. If a game recording studio can recreate the complex sounds of aircraft that are now grounded and/or lost to the scrapyard, it can't be that difficult to recreate the sounds of those old trains from scratch. It's never going to be perfect but games like TSW could be the only opportunity for younger generations to experience what it was like to drive or travel around the Network South East area between the 1950s and mid 2000s.

I find it rather sad that two generations of UK EMUs are mostly lost. I think in centuries to come the current profit-first attitude towards the railway and its rush to discard and not preserve trains that will be of historical interest will be regretted. But I'm also cognisant that preserving electric trains is fraught with problems and is very expensive. But then, it's expensive to preserve national monuments, no-one complains about that.

 

I guess older EMUs dont have a draw for preservation and enthusiasts in general. Flying over the points on up at Ditton on a 304 was something else. Tungsten lighting and seats so bouncy you would literally go a foot into the air when the ride was rough. Equivalent now is a 350 which feels like a dentist waiting room with a cylon sound effect.

 

To my ears, the DB 420 in TSC sounds more than a little like an Class 310/312 apart from the compressor so all DTG or whoever was to make one needs to do is talk nicely to whoever made it. Although I don't play TSC these days, AP also did a nice 321 Dusty Bin soundset which could alias quite nicely into most first gen EMU's.

 

I also think people would be less critical of sounds of a MK1 gen EMU because of the fact it will be harder to replicate.

However, it did give me an idea a while back how to get some sounds and help real-life preservation...

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/a-455-8-has-been-preserved-got-an-idea.96736/

 

I'll be buying the route day 1.

Though I have never seen a class 47 on MGR workings, as they didn't have the tractive effort to handle heavy coal trains. They were always on Speedlink runs dragging VDA / VEA vans, or container services.

I guess it was easier to update the class 47 again, instead of giving us a 56 or 58.

 

47s were staples in the North West on MGR until the mid 80s.

 

"Flying" was the right word, remembering how springy those seats were. You'd be launched into a low orbit if the train was going over 50mph.

 

Yes, a 47 could move MGR wagons, but it wasn’t typical power for loaded coal circuits in 1986. You’d normally expect 56s, 58s, or pairs of 20s/37s.



Class 47/3 are fast mixed-traffic locomotives, and absolutely not suited for continuous MGR workings.That's what the class 56 and class 58 were specifically designed for.

 

A 56, 58 or 2x37 all produce well over 3,000hp, whereas as pair of 20s only produce 2,000hp. Were the 20s generally used on MGR circuits with less severe gradients or did they have lighter loads (or were they just slower!)?

 

Pairs of British Rail Class 20s were actually very typical MGR power in earlier decades, and they lingered in that role in some regions longer than people remember.

Two 20s together gave roughly double the tractive effort, and excellent low-speed adhesion and flexibility for shorter branch routes.

They were also easier to allocate because there were so many of them.

 

Sorry, this is nonsense. MGR workings are precisely why all 47/3s had SSC. What do you think did MGR workings before 56s and 58s? Granted, in 1986, 47s on MGRs, were a bit of a rarity but take a look at pictures of Knottingley in the 70s. Exclusive 47/3s for use on MGRs to the Aire Valley power stations.

 

Slight aside, but I think a Knottingley “hub” style route set in the late 80’s/early 90’s, about the same time as the SIAM traffic control game, would go down a treat in TSW and definitely provide a focus to get a Class 56 (and 60) in the game.

 

I'd go for Shirebrook personally, but Knottingley would do.

 

My guess is they’ll want to use the stock they’ve developed on other routes, so with the 108 they could go Crewe-Llandudno or Oxenholme-Windermere, or perhaps finish off the Cumbrian Coast line by filling in the Whitehaven-Carnforth gap. All great routes for the 108, although Windermere is seriously limited for variety of services. Whitehaven-Carnforth also - long and scenic, but not much in the way of variety.

Another obvious route is Preston-Manchester Victoria, but they’d really need to do a 104 for that to be convincing, not to mention NTP would look terrible in comparison if route hopping was implemented at Victoria

Perhaps a loco pack…? BR Freight Pack 2: 37/0, updated 31/1, 25 + various wagons, liveries etc?

 

The route is set in 1986, not in the 1970s.

Are we just going to pretend that class 56 and class 58 locomotives never existed, because DTG and Just Trains can't be bothered to model them?

Talk about making excuses.

Just don't complain in future when something is "not prototypical or accurate", because I will link you back to this discussion.

 

56s were seen in the North West but iirc not all crews signed them. 58s even rarer. 20s and 47/3s are spot on for the era. Fiddlers Ferry was mainly Springs Branch, Arpley and Garston crews with some working in from Yorkshire.

 

In fairness, at least with the 58 IIRC they were mostly allocated to the East Midland and South Yorkshire coalfields, don't think there were that many 56s either in the North West until later but I may be wrong on that one looking at photos.

 

It's your claim that 47s are not suited to MGR workings that I'm disputing. If you look further up the thread, you'll see posts about 56s only working a couple of MGRs a day to Fiddlers Ferry and even these started from HM so didn't cover much of the route being built. As for 58s in 86, I think there was a flow to/from Garston docks for import/export (can't remember which) but that would have been south of Weaver Junction only.

 

The latest screenshots are fantastic, that said in one of my previous posts "I'm past the hype stage and fed up now" so it looks great, looking forward to it releasing (of course a day one purchase for me) but I'm no longer doing the little kid needing a pee dance waiting for it any more.

That said, I still want to be part of the discussion

With regard to 58s, initially they were not common in the NW but did start to encroach in from the midlands via Crewe to FFPS but not in great numbers and certainly not enough numbers to convince JT to make one specially for this route (the 56 would be a better choice all round). Heck I've only seen a 58 once in Greater Manchester (Guide Bridge) and that was dragging something demic over to Crewe, they did a few tours however with one in 1987 which ran through Man Vic and also featured a "No Heat Duff" 47/3

56s, well again they were about and in greater numbers than 47/3s on MGRs and maybe if a 56 gets made, it will sub in nicely

As for 20s, well they were used in pairs from Wigan Springs Branch for a very long time until they were replaced by Tugs, in fact SP had the first batch of 60s for operational testing as it was seen as a "closed circuit" operationally. Fun Fact, by the time the 60s arrived at SP they had stopped Sunday working of the MGRs from that depot, on a Monday they could not get the darn things to start as the new on-board computer would have a hissy-fit. Brush sent someone out and he was told "it's ok, we've fixed it", after he promised not to report them he was shown how they fixed the issue - by removing one of the circuit boards and cooking it in the microwave for a couple of seconds - turned out the locos sitting outside of a weekend in the Wigan weather in winter was causing them to get damp and stop working...

Anywhoo moving on, I had said in one thread a long time ago that the 304 would have been a good addition but it surely would have had the Weaver Jn - Runcorn - Liverpool spur included to have full effect. Sadly it seems we are not getting that line, which is a massive shame and to be fair crushing disappointment too as that offers so much more freight potential to Halewood, Ditton, Runcorn as well as more 86/87 passenger running. No doubt the 304 services will be subbed in by AI 101s.

As for a 304 in general, I said in my NTP Remaster discussion thread that the 304/305/504 (and 308) are all very similar and if one was made then it only requires small tweaks to make another, so a 304/305 for Preston-Crewe could spawn a 504 for NTP or a future Bury Electric route if you catch my drift Sound wise, there are plenty of recordings out there which can either be sampled or at least influence/inspire (can't think of the correct word here) the author to create the sounds themselves from scratch. It was done with the 85 on TSC recently One thing to bear in mind is while the composition might sound different, a lot of the single components across many units were shared so it could just be case of getting the component sounds then mixing them accordingly, or trying to given how TSW seems to be an ay-double-ess for that...

I did say previously how I think the timetable might be what is causing the delay, it has a lot of complicated moves which even a minor delay could cause the despatcher to throw up it's arms and go on strike (how very 80s). I'm glad to see that a few others have picked up on that now too Hopefully it won't be much longer to wait, though I do fear that it will be

 

Yes, I would prefer DTG to say ‘Spring 2026’ instead of 0-3 months, as I feel it creates added pressure for developers and frustration across potential buyers.

Regarding the 56, I do think this would be a great opportunity for JT to release a dlc shortly after the route is made available. As I’ve said in the past… Name your price JT!.

 

Please, carry on. I'm enjoying you telling me about 47/3s whilst referencing 47/0s. It's really very revealing about your abundant knowledge on the matter. However, perhaps we should keep it on topic as I can't bear being humiliated any further by your sheer mastery of the subject.

 

Personally I would prefer a 25 first before a 56 although either would be nice.