Gbr Class 802 Discussion Thread

Voyager … What did I do?

 

That's one way to look at it, another is someone is telling them TSW revenue isn't enough and they need to be doing other things to try and bring in more cash. Like bare in mind, look at the supposed Bluepoint situation as a example, they did highly acclaimed but ultimately commercially disappointing remakes. Which then put pressure on them to propose other projects that while they weren't as good a fit on, could potentially have made more money. (Though in their case it didn't save them)

Doesn't need to be a majority, silent minority can do the job too, if you look up how microtransactions work it's actually shocking how few people buy into them. 90+% of people actually do tend to play them for free, and from there maybe 9% of the remainder pay a small amount towards it. It's the one 1% that makes the bulk of your money, like a few people legit paying a couple thousand on it a month (And no, that's not a unheard of number for the biggest spenders) on it can easily dwarf the revenue made by literally everyone else.

I'd suspect TSW is similar, because definitely the game isn't a massive seller, I kind of get the impression a single TSW item might sell a few thousand units. I'd suspect a lot of DTG's players are savvy enough to not be buying a lot of this stuff off the bat, but if you only need a small number of those to buy it at full then that creates issues trying to inflict change.

 

At risk of running the thread OT for which I apologise have been travelling by train in the UK for the last 45 years or so.

Recently had to travel down South from the North West of England by train.

A Voyager was the train involved. This was busy being just after a bank holiday period. So we have a train with hordes of passengers on board many with multiple items of luggage. This cant go in racks above the seats as they cant take items much larger than a carrier bag. Some luggage racks are at the ends but are full already. The catering is a member of staff stuck in a vestibule area selling sandwiches and drinks but nobody can reach as said suitcases and passengers are blocking the aisles. The carriage shakes when the engine takes power and induces an an additional discomfort as the drone is never ending.

How this 4 car train is fit for duties once the preserve of 7 to 10 coach trains with proper catering and luggage space is appealing to people is so far beyond me its impossible to comprehend let alone motivate me to spend spare time and money on it.

 

The problem is the procurement of them, if enough had been built in the first place to fully replace the HSTs we wouldn’t have this issue, but being cheap prevailed and half as many as were needed were built so when the HSTs were finally withdrawn (a decade later than they should’ve been imo, thank god Scotrail is getting rid of those death traps) you now have half a fleet and the 4 coach problem when there should be 8-10.

 

Under procurement has been a problem ever since the 80s. Practically every second gen unit fleet had to have loco hauled substitutions some time in its history....

 

They are getting replaced by a very terrible train…..

man I wish the forums weren’t so restricted or I would have given you a earful for that bloody incorrect statement about the hst

 

Question.

When was the last time you rode a HST?

 

Literally this week lol, had a scotrail’s family pass so been going on them pretty often this week and a bit of last week

 

They are getting replaced with a train that isn't
A: Built in the 70s to 70s crash-worthiness standards.
B: Isn't rusty from being built in the 70s.
C: Has actual structure under the fibreglass ends to prevent the drivers cab (including the driver) from being catapulted off of the rest of the locomotive if it hits something.

We've had this discussion before and I have 1 comparison point Carmont and Grayrigg, Comparitively Grayrigg was a lot worse for energy dissipated in the accident, including OHLE masts and an embankment, 1 death from 109 occupants while Carmont had 3 deaths out of 9 occupants, and if you look at the photos of those MK3s and the leading power car it is a miracle that it happened during Covid because if that was a full train it would've probably been worse for fatalities than Ladbroke Grove.

If I was in charge of the DfT the HSTs would've been fully withdrawn in the mid 2000s and replaced with stock that is complaint with GM/RT2100 issue 1.

 

At least one of the managers involved with replacing the Regional Railways fleet of locomotives hauled five and six coach formations on routes like Cardiff to Portsmouth and Cardiff to Crewe with two car Sprinters, subsequently went to Cross Country. So the ethos of replacing 10 coach loco hauled or 7 or 8 coaches HST’s with Voyagers probably followed him. The justification given was that a higher frequency would operate with the shorter trains, but on many stretches that wasn’t (isn’t) the case. If you have one or two trains a day going through from Bristol to Edinburgh, then people are going to want to use those regardless of there being a Bristol to Manchester half hour either side. And at the outlying areas of XC operation, the frequency is no better than when it was loco hauled or HST.

Personally I don’t mind Voyagers (apart from the toilet stench) and I find the engine noise quite soothing, but they are not suitable for busy corridors and journeys verging on 500 miles…

 

Voyagers would probably be ok if the seating was reconfigured to give more luggage space. Rail travel is supposed to be free of the restrictions that the budget airline industry bring although one open access operator is starting the race to the bottom on that front.

The frequency thing is interesting as its true that certain times of day are always busier but whatever way its looked at those voyagers are the worst tool for the job I have seen.

 

I love the HSTs as a passenger but their time has gone. They are full of rust, old, death traps when involved in accidents.

At least the ScotRail HSTs are being replaced by the 222s which for me are great trains.

 

I've had Voyager's a few times on Birmingham-Leicester services when they replace the 170s.

They are great on those services. But having one from Derby to Edinburgh (for example) is horrendous.

A few weeks ago I travelled on a Voyager from Exeter to Birmingham New Street, It was a Sunday and the service before it had been cancelled and the two after it had been cancelled, so of course a four coach set rolls in, I was lucky to get a seat, but by the time it got to Taunton, it was full and standing.

 

I'll have a few things and questions about this GBR 802

1. Will it have train faults? If it doesn't, well, that's just careless because that just shows it's ripped cleanly from the Riviera 802 which doesn't have faults either, and hasn't since release

2. Similar CC skins were deleted, or it may be that I just can't find them and I'm blind

3. What is the point of this train and it being a paid DLC lol?

The bi-modal feature is wasted on ECML outside of any scenario ideas, and completely useless on Riviera as that's purely unelectrified. Timetables for it... nice I guess? But it won't really offer anything different other than a new splash of colour

I think I'll give this train a hard pass, so far there doesn't seem to be anything promising about it, except for the fact it shows there may be some good relations between DTG & GBR (as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread)

 

Awww great it’s you again…… knock off Dr beeching

 

Part of the reason HSTs have been brought in is because Scottish long haul domestic trains (Highland Mainline/Aberdeen etc) have had 2 or 3 car turbo and Sprinters with backpackers/hank, wilbur and betty/cyclists and all the rest of the passengets crammed in. I agree that trains should be of good crash worthiness and the HSTs were a stopgap until something more modern is found.

 

This here just shows how much DTG are out of touch with the Community.
We want a bloody Class 91+DVT Coaches for the ECML or the LNER HST! Literally what is missing from ECML. Not a bloody 802 Reskin and I swear if they charge for that, well then that is a massive scam. Considering the 802 still doesn't have faults and it has DRA issues still does it?

 

They are charging for the reskin apparently not sure how much though

 

Don't have any counters? No? Good to know its just nostalgist nonsense then. Also if wanting modern and safe rolling stock makes me Beeching then I will gladly be called that.

That's the problem though, HSTs were *always* a stopgap, a stopgap for APT, a stopgap until newer stock is ordered or released from other leases, a stopgap for electrification, everything is a stopgap on the UKs railways.

But I digress, I understand the HST enthusiasm as it is a cool train, but they are running on their late 40s and were barely crash-worthy when new, let alone with the rust and defects that being that old will add to the mix, alongside actual crash-worthy stock running alongside it, its time to let go, times have changed and I'm sure they lasted a lot longer than BRELs engineers could've ever imagined.

 

I really want to see ECML south with a IC225 and of course an IC225 timetable for the current snippet of ECML we have, especially in the transitional period between the old and the new. Personally I have to say the IC225 is my favourite BR built high speed train.

 

I disagree. The projects aren't cheap and ones like Metro Rivals is being used as a learning curve for potential next installation/upgrade of TSW or another similar branded game utilising UE5

 

I just hope they don't decide to make us buy all the dlcs again because of the UE5 upgrade

 

Bluepoint being assigned to a new God of War live service title was a cheaper project than remaking already existing video games?

Really doesn't seem like you thought much about what I said if that's your response to it. I never claimed their current efforts are cheap. Also it's bizarre to say "Well they're learning things while developing it", as if somehow large AAA projects never experiment with new development processes. Or mess around with new ideas in a smaller scale that get spun-off into other projects. Famously Resident Evil 4 actually resulted in multiple projects raising from the various experiments done for that title as just one example.

 

Some people take the whole era nonsense why too far on here (nostalgia).

Just because you grew up in that era and can relate to the older trains in question, doesn’t make them better. IRL louder trains would make me commute on buses more.

 

the 158 and 170 are not much younger and quite honestly more of a death trap than a hst due to their design, anyways scotrail’s keeps talking about losing a ton of money but yet wasted over 80 million on trains that don’t even come into service until late 2028 and even then they don’t plan to increase services , Aberdeen’s lines both only run 8 trains a hour when they could easily run way more going off the fact there’s normally a 20+ minute wait for services

wouldn’t it be better from a Business standpoint to run both for a few runs gain money and boost our railways efficiency by quite a bit

 

Yeah, 25 years isn't that much.....

Also what are you on about "wasting money" when the trains they're getting are nearly 30 years newer, and if my business was losing money, the first thing I'd ask is why the hell are we using outdated, relatively unreliable and completely obsolete equipment?

 

I know it’s a different field but it’s the reason when you fly on a Ryanair or EasyJet flight your plane will on average be only 10-11 years old, because they are constantly getting new planes and offloading as soon as they get maintenance heavy, maintenance can and will cost more than just leasing a new plane. And I’m sure the same would apply on the railways, a 30 year newer Class 222 will be less maintenance heavy than a nearing 50 year old HST, I’m sure even a brand new IET would be cheaper now it’s design has been refined with EMRs 810s especially when we talk about service life.

The HST as a well high speed train is really an anomaly for how long it has lasted, Shinkansens oldest sets are 25 years old, TGV and ICE are 36 years old and the Acela Express’ are starting to be withdrawn at 26 years old.

 

DTG have mentioned this themselves. Metro Rivals will be their first game using UE5. So yes they are learning as they develop...

 

If thats the case then its goodbye tsw.

 

I think we need to distinguish between real life and entertainment here, which is the primary purpose of games like TSW. Yes, IRL just as with many things in our cotton wool cushioned world, Mark One coaches and scalding steam heating supplied by a diesel loco guzzling 1 gallon of diesel every mile would be shock horror. So yes, sitting in a hermetically sealed steel or aluminium reinforced tube with energy efficient propulsion is better all round.

However from the point of view of keeping myself entertained, I want those noisy old diesel, electric or even steam trains with coaches that will concertina if they hit a sparrow. Just as when I fly Flight Sim, I want to thrash an old 727 or DC10 with noisy polluting engines, basic autopilot and no auto throttle rather than some A320 Neo whatsit. IRL if I turned up at the departure gate now and found a DC10 or Tristar sitting there for my long haul flight, I might think twice about boarding!

 

Yes agreed completely. I am pleased that safety standards have improved over time but do I want to spend £29.99 to listen to electric motors and brakes controlled by micro chips and digital displays...?

Its a hard no.

 

Plus, I think this may be more virtue of locomotive + coaches vs MU, but when I was last on an HST I found the ride quality rather poor.

 

Seeing as this thread has gone way OT, I was riding them a couple of weeks ago as I was back in Scotland and had some free time to do a bit of travelling.
Considering the age of the HSTs, it was smooth rides every time and it was so nice to ride on them again. Better than the trips I made on 158s (I try to avoid 170s on long trips).

 

Compared to what?

 

For sure, my posts regarding the HST and crashworthiness were purely related to real life, in the sim I would love to see all sorts of classic BR stock because they are fun to drive (please some SR EMUs).

 

Eh, there's a point where it gets too much. There are a couple of locos I can't bring myself to drive in the sim because of the omnipresent droning rattle.

 

Multiple Units in general but mainly the IETs which seem to be better than they were when new (maybe that's down to me sitting in the middle of the coach rather than over the bogies).

 

Beeching only recommended line closures, the majority were done by Barbara Castle, Beeching did come up with the concept of Merry Go Round trains, Freightliner etc etc and streamline Intercity services, a process that eventually spawned the HST. Beeching gets a rough ride.

 

Spot on, unfortunately though most people seem to find the fun in playing with what’s on the rails today, hence this love affair the devs have with AT300’s.

Personally I’d love to get some 1990s/2000s content in the game, so many colours & interesting fleets to be had.

 

I'd go back even further to the 70s and 80s with loco hauled trains, 1st and 2nd generation DMU's and slam door electrics. Plus E and F series for the US

Quietness and squeaky clean are fine, but noise and dirt are much more entertaining.

 

He just so happened to destroy most of Scotland’s railways which I hate him for since life is so much more inconvenient now

 

To be fair, the one most deserving of having the ire directed at him there would be Marples, the man who appointed Beeching with that brief after pushing through legislation to make closure of railways easier, and who just so happened to have been the managing director of a major road construction firm, who transferred his 80% of shares in the company to his wife in order to nominally circumvent conflict of interest laws, and who fled to Monaco shortly after receiving a peerage, in order to avoid prosecution for massive tax fraud...

 

Would it be reasonable to say at least some of the cuts were justifiable?

Part of me thinks the old railway network suited the UK population more when people didn't have much access to personal vehicles, but with the rise in people owning cars it would be inevitable that at least some lines would be shut. It may be a terrible take as well though lol.

 

Some sure, but the alignment should’ve been protected so lines could be rebuilt in the future if there was demand, like it boggles my mind that the government isn’t protecting the alignments of phase 2b of HS2 pretty much ensuring no future government can build it.