Metro Rivals Development Suspended

Looks more interesting than metro rivals

 

As I mentioned earlier looking at Steam DB for Sodor that seems unlikely. Okay, you need to factor in console and non Steam PC players but the maximum ever recorded playing was only just over 1000 and now down to less than 100 playing on average. 1000 copies at (say) average of £32 given some probably bought the Deluxe version is only £32k. UK VAT will take 20% of that, no doubt Mattel took a nice cut so you're probably looking at less than £20k net from Steam sales. Even if you quadruple that to allow for the other platforms, that's still less than £100k before recouping development and manpower costs.

 

Ive been thinking a lot about it today.
MR doesn't make business sense. There wasnt any real appetite for it. Compared to Thomas, the interactions it generated was low. it got next to nothing shares, likes, or comments. It didnt take long to see it was dead in the water.

It was a testbed for UE5 too. But moving to UE5 costs a lot more to build up and it wouldn't see any real benefit to the TSW series. UE5 still has stuttering issue, struggles to animate things that simulate fast movements (like a train at 100mph) and only brings a lot of visual candy like fire sparks and all the fun stuff that suits an action game. None of those are relevant improvements for the cost for TSW.

Thomas should be a big cash cow for DTG and hopefully allow them to cover the sunk cost of the MR game. Cancelling MR now at the start of the tax year is probably a wise move. Although a flood of DLC before the end of the last tax year wasnt great for us users due to the quality on release and was a bit suss.

Im gutted for the redundancies and staff.

Big question now though:

Train Sim World 7 - Will it happen in September? Or be put back while corr issues are fixed on this franchise and/or DTG restructuring? How will cancelling the MR affect that?

Thats gonna be my question for the next Q&A session for the May Road map.

 

Id say with no Metro Rival release in FY26 then TSW7 has to be a thing and putting it off as well would make a dent in the margins that even a financially healthy company (and no on outside th company has the knowledge to say either way) would struggle not to be affected by.

 

Nooo! I was actually excited for this to come out, lol

 

Trying to recall when last year we found out TSW6 was a “thing”. Think it was fairly early on, to avoid the forums filling with endless speculation. But while we like to think TSW is still safe, nothing is certain particularly if PullUp/Focus are pulling the strings. We know that most content development is now outsourced to second or third parties and the mountain of tech debt paints a difficult picture as regards how many technical and programming staff are on board.

So while I hope TSW continues, I wouldn’t be too surprised if it didn’t succumb, ss already stated DTG don’t have a great track record with all the other IP’s they tried - Flight Sim World, abandoned when the going got tough. Fishing, pretty much dead in the water (ha!). Catan, great idea that went nowhere. Even TSC all but abandoned apart from making money off residual sales of DLC.

 

That's ridiculous maths. That's concurrent players not total sales. That number of players isn't the same players 24 hours a day. If there was 1000 players for 24 hours and each of them played for an hour, that alone is 24000 sales.

Steams concurrent players is a terrible indicator of actual sales.

Nobody here has any idea.

 

Not to mention Thomas is a kids game first and foremost and young kids at that. Most responsible parents would have steam in off line mode as there’s no need for them to be online playing and those game sessions aren’t recorded

 

I guess, games like Sodor are selling better on console, as kids often playing on console and not on PC. I don't say it sold/sell well on console, we just don't know.

 

It’s concurrent players but your point still stands. A good initial estimate for sales in the first week from the initial concurrent players on release is to multiply it by 10 to 20 times. I do have a good laugh whenever people try to quote Steam DB player numbers as absolute sales. Even comparing games is difficult because play duration affects concurrent player numbers too, and for existing games it can’t really be used to estimate how many people have bought a game over time.

 

. You're right. 16 years of living away and my English is getting worse! I should stop posting on forums when tired.

 

i think most of the team that may have

well i think some of the teams members were burn out on tsw and wanted to try something different. also maybe they could try world of subway type of railroad.

 

Maybe someone at the very top (parent company) looked at the degradation of TSW it's bug ridden core and ongoing botched releases of DLC and the potential money to be made keeping Mattel on side and decided to enact a "back to basics" approach.

 

DTG cancel Metro Rivals to focus on other games

 

I for one will not miss metro rivals , I seriously doubt if I would have bought it

 

How about instead of TSW 7 they do what they done with TSW2 with the rush hour type content they did. Give it another year of support before moving on to 7.

 

UE5 offers a number of improvements over UE4 that doesnt need extra engineering skills and could solve some inherent problems.

 

The Rush Hour content was rushed and didn't live up to the marketing hype. It took another 18months after release to fix the bugs and add layers to make the routes what they promised and took gen 9 to achieve alot of that.

 

A complete guess here but I think all the requests to see the NYC Subway get made for TSW is what maybe drove DTG to make Metro Rivals. They might have thought it was going to be a good idea since we can’t get it for TSW and that Metro Rivals will make up for it. The game looked pretty from what was shown but it’s not the type of gameplay most people are wanting to see. It’s pretty clear nobody wants a Need For Speed game but with subway trains… I do feel bad for DTG since they put time and effort into what they were trying to do with the game. Quite sad when it had to end like this but atleast they aren’t wasting anymore time now. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in the near future. I think TSW will be fine though. I don’t see this being a threat to TSW’s future.

 

You miss the point I'm making. There are many bugs in the TSW UE4 that have existed for multiple versions of the game that DTG can't fix. So moving to UE5 doesn't fill me with much hope they can make a decent go at things.

 

I got your point but my point was that some of the bugs you say that have existed in UE4 have been ironed out by EPIC’s engineers at source and therefore should not cause DTG’s software engineers any problem going forward.
It should also be borne in mind that the version of Unreal that DTG use is a highly modified bespoke version too.

 

Obviously the expected sales for MR just didn't look like they would hit expectations but my guess is this has more to do with TSW

Reality is TSW is a very large part of DTG's income, their bread and butter money. However, I just cannot see sales of DLC for TSW going anywheres but down due to all the issues on the console versions of the game, as It has been getting harder for console players to justify premium price for DLC for what is clearly a sub standard product

I don't know what DTG were expecting but did they really think £30 for DLC where performance is all over the place and blurred texture are common was going to be continually accepted?

TSW7 is coming but if it comes with all the same issues and same DTG excuses then it could possibly be the end of the line for the franchise.

Logic would state that something has to give and it looks like MR could be the sacrifice. Staff with TSW experience will get pulled back in to help with the game and the those without TSW experience, now looking for new employment

 

While you might be right, a lot of the issues we are seeing in TSW, are only specific to TSW, other UE4 powered games don't suffer issues with draw distance pop in etc. Other UE4 powered games have had FSR/DLSS intergrated. This technology would greatly help low end PC's and FSR would really help the console builds, but DTG says it's "not needed", to me thats more of "we can't understand how to intergrate the plugin".

 

I feel for anyone impacted by this cancellation, that is never fun

Since this was announced, I was really skeptical of it's potential. Though I get the attempt to trial UE5, the concept was a fever dream to me, and there seems to be a lot of investment to sell the vibe with the trailer, art, and supporting content. It wasn't until now that it appears someone took a step back and thought about what this game really was going to be.

The announcement trailer gave me no great impression on content, and the showcase made this look like a glorified TSW with manufactured edginess and economy. There is no hype, no "wow, this looks cool" feeling. I didn't see the replay-ability of this long term unless you want to leaderboard chase, but how long until that's overran by hacks? Also, I would personally rather see investment in actual quality game content instead of over-produced video content.

This isn't going to make DTG content any better either for TSW either, I'm believing DTG with the teams being separate, and DTG isn't incentivized to make content quality better. We've seen this cycle so many times before, DTG quality dips, community complains enough, DTG makes some changes improving the quality line, and eventually walks back the quality line until enough slips through the cracks that require change.

Not sad this is done, but this isn't going to change anything either.

 

Comments noted/point taken about not directly correlating Steam DB figures about current or maximum number of players being in any way indicative of total sales. Nevertheless, Sodor seeing about 10% the play level of TSC or TSW when it’s only around two months old still tells me the game is not entirely a runaway success or cash cow DTG had hoped for. Without insider information we will never know, so I’ll box that one for now.

As regards Metro Rivals I did have one other thought occur to me which, again, no one at DTG is going to come out from beyond the PR speak to confirm or deny. Could someone at MTA have thrown a wobbly given how twitchy they are over NYC Subway in games? Yes the route was fictional but drew heavily from the NY system along with vintage but still authentic looking Subway cars. Even if they gave tacit blessing initially, a suit higher up might have decided a game where you race Subway cars is the last thing they want to see potential train vandals/highjackers playing and issued a cease and desist notice? Even though most 14 - 17 yo NewYorkers are unlikely to be playing a game like Metro Rivals.

[Edited by self to remove comments regarding DTG HQ location and establishment issues.]

 

This news is not surprising...the interest levels for this seemed almost non-existent (check the steam discussion page for proof of this). If the devs for this have been laid off, expect an imminent cancellation announcement.

To be clear, I'm not overly happy with this news...I was somewhat interested in seeing this game launch (at least as a UE5 experiment).

 

For me the problem with the cancellation is that it shows poor strategic decision making.

The market gave a pretty emphatic No to the concept. Almost no potential consumer was clamering for it. A sort of racing game, with relatively sluggish vehicles that don't steer, is so daft I don't know how it ever survived the initial brainstorming session!

If this is the quality of DTG decision making I worry about the long-term future of all their products.

 

You nailed my thoughts on it, I see people say it looks good, but the main trailer showed nothing but "vibes". And frankly I don't even think the game looked that compelling, there's a million games that try and look "realistic", and by extension they just blend together. Nor do I vibe with this "New York turf wars meets subways" world they came up with, it's probably the "manufactured edginess and economy" that you mentioned.

Beyond that it really just seems like TSW with a boost mechinic, it really doesn't seem all that remarkable. Thing is games like Derail Valley & Densha de Go! do already exist if you want a DTG TS-like experience that's a little more gamey.

 

I mean, we did have pretty much the same game back in PS2 days...

 

TSW2020's player numbers short after release weren't so high either. I guess there simply wasn't enough content to keep playing it, back then.



https://steamdb.info/app/530070/charts/#max

And perhaps the Thomas game wasn't meant to turn a profit, but simply to lure the younger public into the TSW franchise.

 

Good points, well made!

 

I loved this Game so much as a Child and it was the first thing I thought of when I read about MR.

 

Train Sim World: CSX Heavy Haul Released on 16 March 2017, CSX Heavy Haul consisted of one playable route: Sand Patch Grade, based in the United States.

TSW 2020 would not release for another 2 years.

 

I see one of my previous posts is removed, I will not repeat what I said, but it was not meant to be as an insult anyway. However I'm still wondering how the idea for this game came up and why DTG was thinking, this is a good idea. Why did DTG not decide to make a metro simulator game, as this is more in line with games like TS classic, TSW and the 3rd party tram simulator. A game like this is easier to sell, as the audience will be kind of the same and you can focus the marketing on the current player base.

After the reveal of MR, it was already pretty clear, there was not much interest from TS Classic and TSW players, so for who was this game meant to be? Is pulling of the plug of this game now, not way to late?

 

I think a lot of folks don't realise how much of a gamble making any kind of sim really is, on some level we should all be very thankful DTG do what they do (no I'm not saying we should forgive obvious problems) there sticking by a subject that is at its best very, very niche, and not off chasing quick viral hits like a lot of other developers, there never going to see massive Helldivers 2 numbers, or make the level of money a COD game will, yet here they still are making train sim games, so maybe think and consider that the next time you're having a tantrum, as It's probably not the devs fault but the man/women the floor above with the fancy car and suit dishing out orders based on a spreadsheet listing time vs money.

Discourse and debate should always be open, but sometimes these posts turn into a primary school playgrounds, after the age thread i got the impression most of the people who play this game are adults maybe start acting like one.

 

Good that I don't need to look anymore at that hideous opening screen. "Put it on your wish list. NOW!" Yeah, right.

Sorry, couldn't resist ...

 

I forgot that TSW had it on the loading screen.

 

In my opinion, MR was a bigger gamble then making a sim. DTG knows already their (sim) player base and simulator games are pretty popular anyway. And of course, simulator games are not the big sellers like COD or GTA, but it's also not a niche anymore. I can understand a game like Thomas, as it attract young players who maybe play TSW later on. Also older people who grow up with Thomas can like Thomas from a sentiment point of view.

We don't know who came up with the idea, it can be someone in a suit, but it also can be a developer. But in the end, the person with the suit is responsible and I still not see why they thought this was a good idea.

 

Originally, it was just a game designed to give DTG a taste of UE5, and not really a game they thought would be popular

 

A metro simulator would have been much better !!!. I also think a Tram Sim World would do pretty well too.

 

If this was the case, why not make a game which suits better in the portfolio of DTG? I mean if you invest in something, it will be very handy if you get anything in return by selling copies of the game.

We don't know the exact reason for suspending development, where it difficulties with UE5, or did they see this game wouldn't sell enough to get a return on the the costs of further development?

 

My guess would be there trying to diversify, you get 3 choices in business stagnate (what i mean by this is you have a stable customer base and are ok staying there), diversify or specialise, i guess management hasn't picked one of those yet.

 

Yeah, I don’t really understand what they were trying to do here, especially when they were obviously hoping TSW players would jump over to it.

They’d have done much better even making a singular UE5 experience of a subway system. Be it UK, US or DE I bet for £30 they’d have got a good chunk of players to buy into it, never mind people who are in non TSW subway experiences.

Frankly they’d have done better trying Rivals as a mobile game.

 

Waterloo and City line simulator in UE5 for 30 pounds. That fits all the conditions you mentioned. I bet devtime gonna be short on that one.

Noone but the people involved know what was the inspiration or the reason the project even existed. To me it feels like there are passionate people at DTG, people with great ideas, however lacking in the connection with the reality of the markets. A game like Metro Rivals, if done on a low budget by an indie dev, could have been a reasonable success, taking it to a corporate level game with all the backing personnel it was too much of a nieche title. For UE5 alone better techdemo opportunities exist/ed, even Wonders of Sodor could have been that title since the sim side is supposed to be dumbed down anyways.

Its a sad moment for the people laid off and the person with the idea behind the game, whom I suspect is not someone made redundant as they had to be in DTG already, to even make the proposal for the project.

I am sorry Harry if you find this offensive or attacking, but the number of Community Managers, and the size of the community team grew exponentially. Its not about the individuals, we can find all of you guys likeable, but the question stays for people who were here in COVID for TSW2, how 3 people + Matt were able to handle a much more intense schedule and the community was also overall less toxic.

People since that we had interacted with in the community team since have been made pompous roles as "Director of Community", while they werent necessarily the persons best representing the intrest of the community.
Not everyone has to be a giga railfan, but this is not CoD or Fortnite, where the playerbase is in the millions, the forums flowing, the discords discording, the livestreams on the homepage everytime. We need some clear communication from the community team, that speaks the language of the community, rather than just humor and empty promises.

And probably an overall shift in the hopes for Wonders of Sodor and TSW not to reach the same fate as Metro Rivals over the next short while, for which I couldnt even imagine the number of people facing redundancy if it happens, both with DTG and external.

 

People have bad ideas all the time, yet some of them actually end up working out.
Also, plenty of what seemed like good ideas at the time, fail for many reasons, including just bad timing.
They tried something, decided it may fail or may not succeed as intended, and a decision was made to pull it. Happens every day in every single business to some extent. Sometimes, it's better to cut your losses than run with it.
Whatever your thoughts on the game concept itself, or DTG, put yourself in the position of now being unemployed.
Businesses have to try things. Not everything works all the time, and there are no guarantees.

 

It comes round every so often.

The forum auditors decide DTG are going bankrupt and then go quiet when it's clear they aren't.

I don't know if some actually wish it or like the drama.

 

'the forum auditors' LOL

 

There’s bigger games than this got canned recently as well as big lay-offs and closures of entire developers sadly. I hope DTG can retain the UE5 knowledge they gained during MR development. As for Thomas & Friends, I think console sales would far exceed PC sales anyway and if it does make it to the Switch, then even more so, I would expect it to sell well there.

 

Agreed, I'd have happily shelled out for a UE5 version of, say, the Piccadilly line (the line that was considered for TSW2, but the Bakerloo line got the nod instead), given that DTG aren't planning to do any more London Underground lines in TSW because of the light baking involved. And if that had sold well enough for further LU lines to come along as DLC, shut up and take my money.