What’s Going On With The Class 90?

ATS Alan hasn’t been on the forums since April 1st when promising they’d keep the community updated and in the loop.
People who own this loco still have a broken product they paid for.

Why the silence? Is Alan unable to discuss the current situation. Normally a third party dev is quite vocal about updating the player base, look at Firefly studios and how they’ve dealt with feedback and gone on to fix their issues.
It doesn’t look good on a third party dev to stay silent especially when people are asking you questions and you can’t be bothered to respond to them. It’s just going to make me avoid buying any content from them in the future.

 

I so regret buying this it should have been a really great loco. But we this janky piece of craaapp that you cant even deive probably. And the fact that Alan Thomson hasn't even been bothered to keep us posted on a fix. Well that just says it all really doesn't it. I WANT MY MONEY BACK OR A FIX SOON.

 

I felt sorry for all the Xbox guys who couldn’t get refunds, some did, but the majority didn’t.

I’m not touching this add-on with a barge pole until I see some commitment from ATS. They only seem to care about TSC.

 

Im on xbox and because I play for a few ie tried the training and job. But couldn't get anywhere. Microsoft said played i couldn't get a refund.

 

Guessing that was just an April Fools joke.

Real talk though, if it's just a "wrong build" issue it shouldn't take over a month to sort out

 

the only issue i have with the 90 is the AWS, so i don't enable it till i put the reverser in the direction I'm travelling, apart from that i have no other issues with it, yeh it's annoying that little stuff like that hasn't been fixed before launch, but it's hardly making it unplayable.

 

DTG should also be taking the lead and stepping in as they are selling this item on their storefront and happily pocketing their no doubt substantial percentage of the take. If DTG had any integrity they would pull it from sale and arrange refunds or store credit for those who want one but can't otherwise obtain one through normal processes.

Just glad I steered clear, but then having read the sordid history of the TSC Class 745 which, by all accounts was another low quality release more suited to MSTS, then the debacle over Manchester commuter and the laughable fix to prevent trains colliding, simply reinforced my decision not to touch anything from this developer with a bargepole. That applies to anything else they might release in future.

 

Can someone give me a quick summary of what's wrong with this product please? Haven't been keeping up to date as much with the forum. Thanks!

 

The only real issue i have come across is if you enable the safety systems before setting the reverser, you can't cancel them.

 

Okay I may have the some answers for you and the community.

FIRSTLY THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON ATS, OR A SELF EGO COMMENT.

I watched the first ATS YT video regarding the release issue. AWS and safety systems issues. No circle button reset on PSN. (Not sure for Xbox etc).
Now from my experience in making such announcements it’s about control of the narrative and not leaking to much truth.
No this isn’t a lie it’s just information withheld. And so I feel that YT video was not how things should be handled.

Yes communication is essential but not leaking in the ins and out of a business agreement or working relationship on a public platform.
I feel that video did harm to both DTGs and ATS working relationship and of course any public opinions.

The narrative if left unchecked. And that’s where we are now.

I can only surmise that some words have been exchanged by those individuals involved.
Could part of those discussions be NOT to speak to the public about the situation, on ATS side of course and why the public are faced with a communication black out.

A case of lose lips sink ships and so must be resolved.

After watching TSS YT video regarding the situation on patches and fixes for the class 90 is again in the public spotlight.
I personally asked DTG Harry on these matters on the open forums and no answers.

It’s all silent.

I’m glad you opened the thread because I have held back some complicated livery work because of what’s happening.
Do I work for hours and lose the lot if a new update comes, my fear after losing a fair few ECW liveries after the ECW update.

Does the communication black out have something to do with what’s I’ve highlighted?.

I’m not saying it’s true but could hint towards a reason.

✌.

 

You can reset the AWS. I’ve completed full routes with it on.

The only problem is that I cannot reset the AWS in time. The circle button doesn’t work. And a player has to understand that the DSD is on too. So you have to push that down individually. Again no button reset.

So because of these things I keep coming to a stop, do a fully reset and start pulling off again.

The AWS works and the DSD it’s just the button on PSN.

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There is something else I’d like to touch upon too.

This is in relation to customer seeking money back.

Okay so for the in and out of Microsoft or Sony’s T&C of sale I will stay away from.
However I did some research in how games or products reach market. The legal aspect.
What the laws says and outlines in how they class a product to be unsatisfactory or not fit for purpose.

In simple terms the law will accept a small amount of issues that come with development programs.
As long as a player can use a product that is designed to work as intended can still come with some issues.

It’s how the law monitors the gaming industry.
In some cases it’s even down to the individual or company putting their product on say PS store in what state they come.
Go on PS store and look at all the one start games. Poor is not the word.

DTG is working to the best of its abilities to fix major problems but legally they don’t have to fix issues that can be resolved by the user.
Annoying to the customer yes but that’s how the laws or regulations apply.

If it’s not BROKEN THEN DON’T FIX IT. it says more than some people think.

So if the user can still use the product, which some can, even if the circle button doesn’t work others and I can still drive the train.
However ATS or DTG wish to leave it is again down to the company.

For the consumer they will leave review or leave one star as I have on PS.
It will effect how a customer spends, again I’ve held off, fed up of having so many small issues interfering with the gaming experience. That’s what matters for a player using a simulator title that looks fantastic yet gets let down by another quality concern.

So because of what’s happened with the Class 90 has impacted my spending habits and in turn DTGs revenue.

In my book it’s not a case of let’s forget it, it’s a case of fix it fast.
The narrative isn’t going away and so the publics opinion and the community still loudly echo the past opinion when it comes to issues left or forgotten.

Same old, same old. Back to quality and consistency, after sales support, issues left for to long in anyone’s standards.

Draw a line, make a stand or walk away and cut the losses.

Back to square one again. Quality and fixes.

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I don't get that issue mate as I'm on pc, the only issue i get is as i stated.

 

The communication stopped about it after the 1st april and now we entering the 6 week mark since release. Someone did ask on Alan Thomson Facebook today about the class 90 and got this response from the man himself


As soon as soon as possible we have been working really really hard to ensure we cover as many issues as we could in the initial patch
Us as in ATS do not expect it to be much longer at all
I am super frustrated by the situation in fact it’s been the most frustrating release ever for us and I am sure you guys are as frustrated if not more
We are literally working as fast as the current system allows to get things where we want them

 

The sounds are also complete garbage.

 

Don’t forget the poor textures both internally and externally… and the dreaded wheel blur

 

I was super looking forward to the 90, but gladly didnt buy it.
All the WIP and preview shots seemed to show an asset with PS2 era levels of detail, lifeless flat surfaces and it just looking low res. It looked like it belonged to another era of software.

I really cant see how this could have been released at all.

And then we found so many bugs with it too.

 

Feels like and looks like its from tsw 2 era.

 

Are you serious XD. It’s abundantly clear you didn’t buy anything from them.

 

No - the sorry tales on the TSC reports were enough to put me off.

 

Seriously, the flirt has more detail and attention than any of the rubbish in TSW, baring the expert German stuff maybe. Saying it’s better off in MSTS is incredibly arrogant.

 

I wonder if a devs allowed to not monitor the forums .....

 

Revisiting the main thread about the 745…

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/ats-745.80936/

Seems the greatest concerns were about price, plus of course buying direct from ATS you don’t have the Steam two hour refund window to address any shortcomings. However there are a few references to the quality of the item within that thread, though maybe I was a tad harsh to say MSTS level. It’s also another item which, IIRC, fell foul to a bit of ATS infighting before eventually making its way to market.

Anyhow entirely up to people whether they buy this, MIA, the Class 90 or anything else ATS might release in the future. Just important people can make an informed decision.

 

The AWS and DSS is the main issue but it is riddled with other problems, there are no 390s at all (at least for me) when driving a 90, making the route look completely dead. There are problems getting the master key and reverser set after you remove and attempt to reinsert the key. I'm sure there are other issues but I haven't played it extensively due to these issues.

The big problem for me is the lack of 390s, you can go miles without seeing a single train on a timetable labelled as "weekday"

 

Has there been an explanation as to why everything has to have its own timetable now? It never used to be like this.

 

I get ya now.

All this over a AWS issue a.

Just out of interest if on PC or console would you happen to know if any player was able to get platinum score?.
As you will know with safety systems on will give way more points, but with the way it is at the moment I’m unable to do that.

I don’t mind driving for the points (that’s all ya get really) but not when I’d have to re drive again to gain platinum.
So small I know but it’s there.

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Aye you can, as long as the safety system is the last thing you setup, this is for pc tho not sure about consoles.

 

Edit, removed old quote.

cheers man, for me on PS5 I’ve tried different ways on the set up. I still get gold.

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Aye hopefully DTG will step up there game at some point, the goodwill of the community is not inexhaustible, and once that runs out it maybe to late for them to regain it :-(

 

I believe the official line is that it's easier (although it has been a while so I may be misremembering) - supposedly, adding to the old timetable would mean retesting everything and potentially breaking something else for people who don't own the new DLC. Also, you might lose some of your progress if the original timetable had services that would normally be run by the new loco that were then replaced.

It's easier for DTG to just create a new timetable every time something new comes - easier to not break something when you're starting from scratch and your progress from the original timetable isn't wiped.

Personally, it's not something that my indecisive brain appreciates.

 

I’m using Firefly and IncredibleTrains as reference's. They’re very active on the forums.
I think it’s a case of a 3PD choosing to remain in the shadows and avoiding criticism.

 

Well you know we’ve been down this route before like so many other users.

The point where standards have been crossed. Ie how long one is prepared to deal with such treatment.
The song, should I stay or should I go.
Being treated like a fool, my fault if I keep spending. And so have a right to speak up.
We all have.

What ever the case maybe, no product should be allowed to reach market in such conditions, regardless of the excuses a customer is a customer and no company should allow its customers to feeling the way some have.

The anger, the frustration, it’s all there hidden under users comments.
It all gets frowned upon yet people tend to forget most are here because of the decline in some of DTG released products. (3rd party too).

If DTG got it right then I guess we wouldn’t be talking as we are. Non of us would.

✌.

 

My gray matter is in decline also but I do remember the same thing being said.
Along the lines of what you stated. I think it was all to do with PS4 users or something. I’m not sure.
You’re more closer than me, yet I did watch it because to be fair it was very interesting to see how hard it can be for DTG.

Things don’t always seem as they first appear.

Yet I won’t pretend I have a clue because I’ve never seen first hand what goes on behind closed doors.
And without being ruthless to DTG teams on the topic of streams then I just don’t have time to watch.

Im not that bothered about what they say, I just want a fix and enjoy the product.

Catch ya soon Jimbo

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Ah yes, that was another thing - Xbox 1 and PS4 need a reduced timetable on many routes, which I don't think is easy to do without having multiple timetables.

 

It’s not a nice set up when you’ve got multiple trains being added to a route. I’ll never see an Evero whilst driving the 90 and vice vesa.

 

it’s taken way too long for any kind of update to arrive but i do believe it’ll get fixed to a very good standard eventually. they’ve updated mac to a tsw6 standard so it’s clear they don’t just sell dlc and forget about it

 

The lack of communication from DTG and certain 3rd party devs really does contrast with both Firefly on the TSW side and companies like Fenix Sim for the flight sim community “The downside is the basic trade-off between resources and time. From a development perspective, this is a reshuffle; we've always prioritised looking after products you've already paid for, before asking people to part with their money for more, and this trend continues here” with them talking about the A320neo being delayed to improve their existing A320 CEOs, Fenix is a small company and has the time to write blog posts and be candid with the community, DTG has no excuse to be so opaque.

 

In my opinion DTG should have pulled the 90 from sale as soon as it was clear it was well below the minimum standard many players feel is acceptable. The fact that it’s still on sale can only be damaging the overall brand, and might give added impetus to ATS to fix it quicker.

 

I see the YouTube channel is still getting content, a 50 minute stream only 4 days ago. The 90 fixes clearly aren't a priority.

 

I hope you’re right. Like you say, it’s taking too long and if I’d bought this dlc day one I’d be extremely disappointed.
Mac also had some improvements, but they still never fixed the broken track layout which has been present since day one.
Here’s a video I recorded for reference:

TSC is their bread and butter, that’s always been the case. I don’t think ATS will ever look at TSW in the same light.

 

Edit: Removed old quote.

Thank the lord my memory still works.

Again the stream I watched was very interesting and just highlighted the difficulties facing DTG such as the ones you’ve already picked up on.
I think DTG at the time said PS4 had a substantial market place to allow DTG to consider the pros and cons.
Where DTG are up to now I wouldn’t have a clue, but one thing I am sure about is DTG dropping old support and moving with the times.

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I think a potential explanation for all this is that ATS and DTG might have fallen out after its release issues and that's why fixes haven't come yet with barely any comms on this from either side. All other 3Ps always show up to a greater or lesser degrees on forums and do reply here and there, same as DTG, but in this case there's been barely any mention from either side in more than a month.

Really unfair for all those that paid for this and couldn't even get a refund.

 

I’m glad I didn’t buy this as it turns out, I was going to as it’s a UK freight loco which we all know is as rare as hens teeth, but what put me off was the lack of it being integrated into other electric mainlines or even the N London lines. I decided to wait until such happened, also I believe even its WCMLS timetable was overly sparse. The whole thing stank of being rushed to a deadline. I’m glad I held off, but when it’s properly fixed and its range expanded, I shall buy it.

 

It’s got one measly sub par timetable on the WCMLS which is too quiet and hasn’t been added to TT’s anywhere else, even the ECML.

 

For me in terms of communication is around if a user looks. Ie when I’ve watched official DTG streams that are quite informative.
However for me I feel it’s long winded a bit dull. Sometimes comments or issues may be circumnavigated, some ambassadors generally speaking do the same, it’s clear and obvious to me. So don’t watch.

However I will watch TSS because he is fair and honest. With words like brutality being used is in my book just saying it how it is.
No hidden agenda or narrative, where ambassador could. Ie fear of being removed as a representative of DTG.
Seen comments from ambassador stating they do not represent DTG so don’t do the masters bidding.
Yet that’s what being an ambassador is, to represent a company image.
Why the first line of attack will be on ambassadors streams. Fans don’t get any response to real issues such as quality, fix’s, head on, again it all gets circumnavigated to focus the stream back to the happy times. Keep away from the negative which leads to more negativity and confusion in players because the real issues are not being addressed head on.

Now DTG has its responsibility and no doubt its hands in what ambassador say if they haven’t got information from DTG.
I’ve heard DTG will start allowing information to flow between DTG and ambassador.
But for me who is both a critic when I feel my rights and self respect has been compromised and a livery creator never felt part of that community. Why the term TSW mafia makes sense, their are friends or have private conversations.
Thus work together here on the forums to possibly sway the discussion away from the negativity.

Ie as Ambassador and community members have all ignored any comments directly to them, why?.
Why avoid?. Is this how they represent themselves and DTG by ignoring users?.

It all adds to a hostile atmosphere, the patterns of behaviour, the egos and defensive comments.
No one can say it how it is because soon as it heads towards the hard talk it all falls apart into a narcissistic mess.
Can’t have a bit of lighted hearted humour about the BH’s. (The state of the human condition) (Self Identity built over years of social conditioning) (Defend because its feels like any form of open opinion is directed at them, the self ego)
These are real problems in society and so feel there are valid to the decline in communication between people in society today.
Thus removing any chance of a sensible debate taking place.

This in turn could make it harder for DTG members to confront the situation in a less heavy handed way.
Removing threads or comments that aim to confront issues. Such action will be picked up by the community and outside.
Adding to the original frustration with harsh actions by DTG staff. However I do feel it’s correct that DTG intervene if it’s no longer considered constructive and more of an individual attack on a particular person or staff member.

So combing poor engagement with its forum members, speaking from my experience they don’t really care or want to help.
The overall experience it seems like they have no time for the individual, be a forum member or as a customer using their support services. TIME and RESOURCES, MAN HOURS. Are ambassadors meant to help DTG and fans here on the community over self indulgence in their chosen YT topic, topics that have rules to how fans can interact. Control?.
The community is falling apart yet some spend hours driving a fan picked route or a different game title completely!.

In all it leaves the community and possibly some ambassadors asking some serious questions due to the amount of hassle involved.
Again taken the fun out of the game, the community and the franchise the longer it goes on.
All fans come to expect now is silence, ignored by key members that also represent DTG.
And all DTG and Ambassador come to expect is endless negativity or noise. Facts get lost and so does a solution.
I think users are beginning to notice all this for themselves, numbers don’t lie if looking across a variety of sources.

YT videos numbers, less positive energy in the room. Decline in honest conversations with any meaning, bar TSS comments section.
So many users commenting fully understand the picture.
After reading up on community experiments I thought I’d conduct my own in settings threads up to discuss about new ideas or strategies for improving the community forums and the game itself. But nothing, no one wants to create or talk, just argue.
Threads that recycle the same conversations of what’s DTG done wrong, each time all fighting for validation in who’s right or who wants to come out looking the best regardless of how they reached that conclusion.

When it’s quite easy to sum things up in one. Quality and consistency, Poor customer relations and a lack of on hand care or support to customer or forum members. DTG get it.

Now let’s move away from that and find solutions, what have we learned, what can be improved. What needs to be changed, change can only come by have hard line conversation without ego getting in the way!. If we the community start to do this then it makes us no better than those that run the country and world. Argue but nothing changes except the for mess that grows higher everyday.

This sounds like a rant now and so I’ll rap up. However I would like to say one thing.
Yesterday a forum member brought up the subject matter about how the airline industry works with games publishers and its community, the fans. And now you. I quite agree with both statements about how other small businesses or 3rd parties can seemingly have a different experience with its fans when things aren’t right for customers. A sign they ain’t hiding anything from the fans. On the other hand there’s DTG and how we the community feels right now.

For me personally it’s dead. Yes DTG are working hard, yet has the ship taken on too much water already. Now they haven’t got the resources or financial backing even to bail themselves out of the situation. I even warned DTG that by staying still in the old age will only make them stand still. And as any stoic person will know is the unfortunate way to go backwards.
Was not making the leap to UE5 a poor oversight looking back now.
Was the lack of communication and support to enthusiastic forum members had a negative impact tied in with a large back catalogue of DLCs and poorly released content now take its toll on once loyal members.

The passion has gone, the community atmosphere has disappeared, the fun aspect seems to be non existent.
It’s bland and boring in modern day standards regarding the pure entertainment or reward aspects side. (Console).

However I feel it’s fair to look at this from DTG perspective. Money flow and poor economic conditions.
It’s so important one factors in all variables across many different sectors, not just games.
Business cost, Customer spending habits, low public opinion, diminished public perception. Training cost. New hardware/software development processes. Such as Metro Rivals, a low cost test with UE5?. How to prepare for next gen console launch. Migration of old build data. Many reputable developers ceasing operations due the poor performance in an ever tightening economy situation.

To say DTG is fighting to keep its head above the water isn’t the half of it probably. Most certainly a tricky situation to be in.
So is it fair to say DTGs resources have diminished over time, customer loyalty and spending habits have also taken its toll.
And why even today regardless of the past I feel a few might be willing to take advantage of this crisis.

By that I mean the ones that are prepared to assist DTG and support them in a community sense.
More input from ambassadors maybe?, a more open approach than what I personally believe it is at the moment.
That being quite selective on whom they speak with which in some cases point towards the TSW Mafia click.
What topic of chosen conversation to feed or not.

All in all IF DTG are struggling then it’s down to us the community to make sure quality improves here before any new fun relationships start removing the barriers that can come with so much negativity from not just the community but the wider media aspect.

The Narrative.

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I watched the TSS video earlier and he nailed it. In fact he was quite restrained not mentioning the elephant in the room many of us are thinking, that it was never the wrong build uploaded just an interior product.

(Edited for spelling due to posting on phone sat in pub!).

 

Yeah quite clearly it wasn’t just a wrong build pushed as those actually tend to get sorted relatively quickly, they *intended* to try to get away with that launch and they got called out.

 

DTG may be charging us for the GBR livery, but at least DTG and ATS got together to give us this hilarious conspiracy for free.

 

It's in farcical territory at this point

 

Haven't bought it yet and will keep my distance until it's fixed. In the meantime, there's enough other stuff to play.