Dtg Needs To Stop Selling Tsw On Consoles (from A Console User)

The argument will be moot when new "consoles" like the Steam one come out, using essentially existing PC software/hardware. They will be called "consoles" but in reality will just be simplified gaming PCs. Then there won't be different "versions", the difference won't be in software, but rather just that the "console" people will be playing mass produced simplistic PC towers with controllers plugged into them. The whole point of the "console" with different software was proprietary in the first place, not necessary for performance. It was never a hardware issue since a graphics card is a graphics card. They only did it to be "unique" for their brand like iphone or android. That's turned out to have held things back for development, so they want to just use existing PC software more and enable more functionality between "platforms." A LOT of players want cross-platform and there's barriers to entry for making essentially 3 different games (that can't play between them) so just going to ONE game that works on "traditional" PCs with keyboards, etc and on "console gaming PCs" (that use a controller) will make them a lot more money by eliminating the need for all that support for different systems, UI, etc and allowing just ONE type of game server/waiting room for multi-player. You won't have "Xbox lobby" and "Playstation lobby" and "PC lobby"... it'll just all be PCs. There won't be "consoles" in the traditional way, just a funny looking minimalistic computer that is mass produced for gaming so will be a bit cheaper than a "full" PC.
The whole argument will soon be pointless.

At that point, there will be no "console" to advocate for or against...it'll be simply a question of "low end" vs "high end" PCs. The core issue won't change however. People buying the mass produced "slim gaming PC" (formerly console) will still be whining about how their computer from 10 years ago won't play the current games and doesn't want to pay to upgrade to a new one.

But, on the bright side there will be less "compatibility" issues... it'll be more just a straight-up "runs too slow" problem, just like any other old PC.

 

I fully support dropping consoles WHEN DTG provide console players with the respective dlc codes for pc that they currently own on console.

Until then, dropping support for current gen consoles would undoubtedly kill the series and likely the studio since its budget has quite clearly swelled to accommodate the additional revenue from consoles and practically no one from console is going to make the switch to pc when they need to fork out the price of three high end pcs to get all their content back.

Until this issue is addressed the tit for tat arguments on 'power' and 'holding back' are fundamentally pointless.

Essentially;

This topic is a pointless excercise in rage bait until hell freezes over in the DTG offices.

 

Yeah but stopping the sale of it would mean no new DLC. I wouldn't enjoy it very much if a route/train I wanted came out and I couldn't get it, would I?

 

And you enjoy it when they do come out and are broken beyond all belief?

 

Not sure I'm ragebaiting but if I was you clearly fell for it

 

Well this thread was a mistake...

 

Sorry, but what are you even talking about? Steam is not releasing a console. The Steam Machine is a PC and always have been advertised as such, therefore using the word console in quotes make no sense, because nobody is calling it one.

Now the concept you have described makes sense, after all this is exactly what the Steam Machine is. Sony and Microsoft could also produce similar pre-built PCs under the name of PlayStation and XBox and it could still remain a viable competitive business.
But if that were the case, the performance complains wouldn't be valid anymore. They offer a software with a set of system requirements and then you can decide whether your PC can run it or not. If you must play it, then it's your responsibility to get a system that can run it.

The issue currently however is that the point of a gaming console, their single advantage over PCs, is that if you buy a PS5 game, it will run on your PS5. No system requirements, no complication, it just runs. Yet currently DTG sells a console game that just... does not run. If you can't make your software run on a console, then do not sell it for said console. Sony and Microsoft should also pull a game from their stores if it does not run their consoles properly. No one is surprised when an old PS2 can't run a PS5 game. But if a PS5 can't run a PS5 specific game, then that is unacceptable. And since the PS5 system specification is a given, the blame falls on the software.

 

Both current and last gen consoles are basically a pc, last gen based on AMDs bulldozer architecture CPU and radeon GPU, and current gen is ZEN 2 architecture and GPU is RDNA2 based, XBox uses a version of windows as its OS, and sonys is a custom version based on BSD.

 

Yes, a console is just a computer that's overly simplified and standardized to cut costs, with a layer of proprietary software for gatekeeping. All I'm suggesting is that they will push to remove that proprietary layer or unique "windows version."
You won't have the "different game version" problem, but you will still have the "over simplified and standardized" issue.
You will still have to keep buying a new one just like you do for any other computer when it gets over 5 years old.
Just like you replace your car when it rusts out and you replace your cell phone when it slows down and the battery can't hold a charge anymore.
The only difference really is in user type, not in hardware per se.
Some people like to customize and upgrade their equipment.
Some just buy something off the shelf, let it get old and buy a new one. They don't bother upgrading along the way.

 

I wasn't trying to call you out mate, baring the PS4/5 the xbox development cycle is very very similar to windows based pc game development, needing few changes, sony being sony like to be "different" unlike xbox using common apis like vulcan and DX where sony uses its on closed custom APIs, the steam boxes are basically a kind of in-between, leaning more towards xbox than sony i would say

 

I think the fact that you saw red and only responded to the final, purposefully worded, point of my comment is all anyone needs to know about you and your input with this thread.

Baited.

 

Yeah, you're right. Xbox is already closer to the future.
They reasonably should be given their background in PCs to work from.

 

It's not the components that make it a PC. If it's "basically a PC" yet I can't use it as a PC, then it is not a PC. And hardware aside, the custom OS is one of the main reason it's different from a PC. Because (in theory) a console operating system will be optimized for only gaming, reducing the overhead that a regular all-use PC operating system would need to have.

Yes, at the end, everything is a computer. Your PC, your gaming console, your TV, your phone, your car entertainment system. But there is a reason one is called a PC and other is not.

 

Magnus can use steam vs Magnus can't use steam.

 

You keep telling yourself that buddy

 

Massive exaggeration but okay.

This thread ain't going how you hoped it would is it?

 

I didn't hope this thread would "go" anyway

 

I know it's somewhat hypocritical from me to ask for a thread to be locked, but I honestly want to see the back of this thread now. It got way more attention than I ever thought it would.

I just want to point out, I love TSW, I wouldn't be here if I didn't.

Having said that, can a mod just delete my account at this point. After having turned half the forum against me, I see no reason to be anymore. Bye, guys...

 

@eMAyTeeTee

No, please don't do that – we need people like you here on the forum.
And the few users you might have upset don't matter.

 

At this point extremely outdated PC specs. And they are not PCs. PCs are devices that you can install whatever software you want on and are intended to be used with keyboard and mouse. Usually means able to run Windows as well. Desktop PCs are usually upgradeable and expandable.

 

First time? Having half the community against you?

like that’s a weekly occurrence for me especially on the discord heh

 

The new MacBook doesn't it literally have iPad chips. It still a PC, and said iPad is obviously not.

 

"coughs into his hand" i have linux on my ps4 :-P

 

Which based on all we've heard about it so far, even as MS remain very cagey about precisely what that entails re; what you will actually be able to install on it, appears to be precisely what the next gen XBox "Helix" system under development is aiming for. A rumour which was lent a lot of legitimacy recently by Sony pulling out of releasing first party titles on Steam, exactly what you'd expect if the next XBox can run those games.

 

Remember the Digital Foundry FrankenPC?

 

This quote of a document i read a while ago kinda sums up the whole console pc thing imo.

"Historically, consoles relied on custom, exotic hardware architectures like the PS3’s notoriously complex Cell processor or the Nintendo 64’s bespoke Reality Coprocessor. While powerful, these custom graphics chips required developers to learn entirely new programming languages from scratch, creating massive development bottlenecks and making multi-platform ports incredibly difficult to optimize.

Everything changed when modern consoles transitioned to standardized PC architecture, specifically adopting x86 processors and off-the-shelf AMD graphics pipelines (RDNA). This shift turned consoles into highly optimized, fixed-spec gaming PCs.

Because developers were already deeply familiar with PC environments, they could instantly port code between platforms without rewriting entire graphics engines. Standardizing the hardware eliminated the astronomical costs of designing bespoke silicon from scratch. Instead, console manufacturers could leverage billions of dollars of PC-driven research and development, redirecting their focus toward custom I/O speeds, cooling, and software optimization while ensuring games looked better and launched faster than ever before."

 

If it's any consolation I fully agree with your opening comment and am of the firm belief that if ANY product cannot be developed on a specific platform to a reasonable degree of acceptability then it shouldn't be developed on that platform at all....and that's the very reason why gen8 was dropped from the TSW itinerary and in a wider gaming context, labelled as 'unsupported' on Steam Deck.
Plus, it's kind of important to remember that TSW started life exclusively on PC and had many, many years to build a strong brand before showing it's face on consoles, so if there's still an over-reliance on income from all platforms to keep the brand afloat then it kinda suggests that dreams didn't match expectations and the sim was never sustainable as a PC exclusive in the first place! Or to put it a different way; Instead of moving over to consoles in order to share the greatness (as most developers tend to do), they did it to balance the books.

Oh, and one final point. I come from a far less complicated era where disagreements were settled face to face, usually with a bit of a shouting session and sulk from both parties, but invariably you just said your bit and just got on with life.....so all I can really suggest is stick to your beliefs regardless of what people think or say. Not unlike yourself, I'm not here to be liked, I'm just here to be heard, so if folk come across as being a bit grumpy then it might be because the truth sometimes hurts and they just don't want to hear what you're saying if it affects their supposed perfect world.

 

I'm afraid this is completely false. The original TSW: CSX Heavy Haul was released in 2017 on PC only. The next year, the first Train Sim World was released on PC and consoles.

 

@Calidore266

What you're saying there is completely wrong.
Because TSW was originally developed only for the PC, and the console versions weren't released until a few years later.
That’s clearly stated on Google.

“ The first installment in the Train Sim World series, titled Train Sim World: CSX Heavy Haul, was released on March 16, 2017, exclusively for PC via Steam. It wasn't until later titles and sequels in the series (such as Train Sim World 2020) that the game was expanded to consoles like the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. ”

 

If by "few years" you mean "one year", then yes. Heavy Haul was 2017, TSW console release was 2018.

 

TSW released on console in 2018.
It did not have "many years" to develop a brand as the other member stated. Calidore is correct.

 

You don’t know your game history very well
Tsw 2020 wasn’t the first console version
Tsw was, no number just tsw

 

A site the Google search engine pointed to, or Google AI? If the latter, be careful with that, and especially with making assumptions based on it.

The first sentence is completely correct. The second is technically correct, but very general; and I assume your "few years later" is referring to the example of TSW 2020 that "Google" gave. However, TSW 2020 was the third release after the original. Sorry, but that isn't at all clearly stated, and you filled in the blanks inaccurately. The releases went:

TSW: CSX Heavy Haul (PC only) on March 16, 2017
TSW: Founders Edition (XBox One only) on March 9, 2018
TSW (original; PC, XBox One, and PS4) a few months later on July 24, 2018
Then TSW 2020 on August 15, 2019.

And so on. TSC was PC only, and TSW was always intended to be their expansion into the console market. My assumption would be that the PC release of a single route was the tryout for the new systems using the platform they already had years of experience on, and the XBox-only single route of the Founders Edition (GWE) was the console dress rehearsal.

 

Hardly matters what the architecture of the graphics hardware is when you're accessing it through a (theoretically) hardware-agnostic API.

I mean, it's just a fact what CPU and GPU consoles use, not a matter of interpretation. What's the point here? Everything with an x64-compatible CPU and AMD GPU is a PC? How does that make sense. If it were just a PC, it would be called a PC. It's called a console for a number of reasons.

The fixed spec part is also pivotal. Consoles quickly go from "mid spec" to "low spec" through their life, no longer able to keep up with the state of the art in games.

 

I have Linux on like 100 devices in my house not a single one of which is a PC.

 

No number, but to give it its full name, "Train Sim World®: CSX Heavy Haul"

 

Not the console port , was always just tsw, I know this since I had on disc originally

 

Console was just Train Sim World.

 

Ah, I missed the "on console" bit. Though I did originally assume that had got a console release and the original SKU had been deleted from the store when TSW launched and redirected to the updated version, the way it often works on the XBox store, unlike on Steam where you can often still look up the original after that happens.

But yeah, 2020 was long after the original TSW launch. Multiple routes in it released originally in 2019.

 

On Wednesday during the Trent Valley live stream, I asked Matt and the team if they'd considered making a PC Edition and a Console Edition. They said, "You would virtually be talking about building the game twice. No one does that. It wouldn't make sense. And you don't need to, to be honest." Adding that "they still have the engineering team looking at the core game to see what they can find and they made some reasonable areas they think they could make some dents in the core game memory usage."

So PC and console users will have to continue to cohabitate as one big dysfunctional family.

Even though I knew what the answer would be from the team I asked anyway for the benefit of Train Sim World humanity.

 

Well, I think it's pretty normal to have 1 game with specific optimizations for the different platforms. Optimization for memory usage is interesting for both console and PC.

So you can optimize memory of the core of the game, but you also need to optimize the routes and trains. However, with the way the games works with layers and substituions, to properly optimize just 1 route, you also need to optimize all the layering trains and substitutions for that 1 route. So in the end they have to optimize something on (almost) all DLC, in order to minimize the issues.

 

I don't really see what difference console and PC being separated would make. PC already is, more or less, its own ecosystem and you have access to mods with a degree of mod support now. From a content POV you also have the editor so you have vastly greater gameplay options than we do.

Splitting the game into two would just divide their attention, I don't think we'd see any benefits from it.

Most games with seperate console editions do it because the game is functionally different - controls, UIs, features, lack of modding, etc. - TSW already has that where needed so what's the point?

 

How will this increase FPS? My PC has no memory issues. The game doesn't even fully utilize the available memory. I have 32GB of RAM and a 16GB VRAM graphics card. When playing with a browser open and several dozen tabs open, I only use 20-22GB of RAM and 12-15GB of VRAM. A qualitative increase will only occur if DTG can overcome stuttering, but it also occurs without exceeding memory limits. DTG could add fsr/dlss, but this again is not tied to memory. The PC doesn't benefit from all this dancing around the game's memory consumption; on the contrary, everything unnecessary that can't run on consoles is cut off.

 

Do you think that a UE4 title that’s several years old, using upto 15GBs of VRAM is anywhere near optimised? It’s a ridiculous level of VRAM to be using.

I find it funny that you’re so..hostile to the idea that the game could be better optimised in this & other threads, you’re practically at the memory threshold yourself at those levels on a 9070.

 

Well fine for you, you have 16GB of VRAM and 32GB of RAM, but most likely there are also people playing the game with less memory and for example a 8GB VRAM GPU. Those people can also benefit from optimization and lower memory use, but as you're already using up to 15GB you're also already close to the limit. A new route with more trains or an existing busy route with a new train DLC and you can already hit the limit.

 

I wonder how much headroom switching to vulcan would unlock on consoles.

 

I would rather they dropped support for PC users. They are so up themselves and arrogant.

 

At least we don't repeat the same thing in every topic.

 

Try to moderate yourself a little and, above all, don't generalize.