We As A Community Need To Buck Up Our Ideas, Improve Ourselves & Do Better...

Bit of a random thread, but I feel it was necessary given the deterioration of etiquette towards Devs and DTG Staff on this forum.

Before I go off on this tangent, I don't want to come across like a wannabe 'forum sheriff', or some type of bootlicker. But I think it is important that we as a community take responsibility for some of the things I'm about to go on a rant about... I am more then aware I will get some who won't like what I've got to say and I'm willing to take that on the chin.

But over the last year or so, I really have noticed the deterioration of diplomacy and constructive feedback from the certain areas of the community towards DTG Staff & Dev. I personally feel that some of the behaviour I have seen is getting more and more out of hand and it is always a certain vocal minority who are always the loudest, most disrespectful, and are the ones putting out disinformation or are completely unhelpful and generate completely unfounded speculation, and are not offering any form of constructive feedback that benefits the TSW or the forums.

First and foremost, I want to say I think there is definitely a place for constructive feedback, even if it is strong (where it is warranted) and I'm not for a second suggesting to mute critical feedback in anyway so long as it has a purpose and helps the general direction of the game/DLC. Sometimes the strongest feedback can be helpful, just as the moderate feedback can be (As can feedback that comes from frustration and is warranted). But somewhere along the lines it appears that general unnecessary borderline abuse, nastiness, and unfounded speculation has been getting more and more common... This isn't feedback, this is just general nastiness, spiteful behaviour and general abuse type comments a lot of the time.

Before GWE Remaster was released, some of this had started to begin on that thread with some nasty unfounded and generally quite spiteful comments that added nothing to the conversation. Another example is the AAS TVL threads that turned particularly nasty and unnecessarily spiteful towards the Devs... Some of the unfounded speculation was just looking to create a nasty atmosphere where it wasn't necessary. There were even people who hadn't even owned any AAS content and were generating unfounded speculation, spitefulness and just being generally insulting! These are just two small examples of the recent ones I've noticed.

Then I have witnessed some real nastiness towards DTG Staff & Devs on a personal level... What is that about and is it necessary? I remember a time when DTG staff would frequent these forums and interact with us, as did a lot of Devs, but some familiar faces will just contribute nothing but complete and utter nastiness at times. I'm not saying that DTG Staff & Devs aren't adult to manage some of these situations, or are immune to criticism, but we wonder why they don't frequent the forums as regularly as they did previously with the increased hostility towards anyone in an official capacity in this game?

I think we as a community need to do better and take accountability and reflect on some of these things. I've seen some real nasty personal attacks on staffs personalities, I've seen generally nasty and unwarranted personal comments that serve no purpose other then to take digs at people personally... We often hold DTG to account for their contributions to the game, but what about holding ourselves accountable for the behaviour we bring to the forum?

This forum should be a place for lively debates, differences of opinion, and feedback even if it is strong at times... But it has started to go beyond that and has turned noticeably malicious and nasty.

I think it is time as a community we try and improve ourselves. I personally think it is the vocal minority, as it always is, who are causing these issues. But it is also often the vocal minority who are always the loudest.

I'm aware the game has had some major bugs and issues that need ironing out and at times can be highly frustrating for players, and I'm not saying for a second that we need to mute our reactions to such things. But we certainly need to make sure anything we do contribute is constructive criticism and feedback... Not personal attacks or spiteful unfounded remarks.

I would like to see a return to a forum where Devs participate in the discussions, but I do not blame them for taking a back seat with the current hostilities they face. I generally enjoyed the interactions I've had with Devs and most of the time it has been helpful and insightful. But the hostile vocal minority make it a nightmare at times and it is enough to put anyone off.

I am not looking to stir up a reaction, but I think we could all do better and think before we post sometimes. Criticism should be generally constructive but never unnecessarily spiteful, personal or unhelpful.

I think we should all look at doing our bit. I want staff and Devs to interact more on the forum but I can see why they've taken a back seat... It would be enough to put a lot of people off.

I also think if this type of hostility and spitefulness by some continues it will in actual fact stunt areas of the game development and be counter productive. And I for one would hate to see that happen.

Anyway I know I will get some flack for this, and I'm willing to take that on the chin... But I think it's time that some people try doing better when interacting on these forums. If you haven't got anything nice to say... Don't say it at all (if it is abusive and offers nothing to bettering the game).

I would just like to see etiquette and diplomacy return from our side as a community.

 

I write in support of the above. I think personal manners, respect and courtesy seems to be something sadly deteriorating in every aspect of life.
This is not helped by social media and the fact that engagement generates engagement, particularly when it’s hostile, and this makes some other people very rich as they can sell more adverts.

Understanding this forum is frequented from people from all walks of life, ages and outlooks I do agree, in an increasingly hostile and fragmented world where click bait and outrage rules the algorithms, we could all just be a bit kinder and understand the world is not perfect and things can’t be fixed in 5 minutes.

People are often doing their best and also dealing with their own family or personal matters. Life is hard and no one should make it harder for others. Everyone carries an often invisible burden to some extent.

DTG staff do a great job and without them we would not have this sim.

“A rising tide lifts all boats” as some wise person said.

 

Completely agree with this thread. For me this is in no small part due to the relaxed level of moderation of these forums. Only the very worst offences (such as the aforementioned personal insults to DTG staff) led to moderation. I would like to see a tighter ship where threads were kept more on topic and unfounded rage bait criticism is discouraged. It would be nice if we could all come together and improve the forums but at the end of the day it will require someone with a pointy stick or ban hammer to actually make a difference.

 

I agree there needs to be respect, but the counterpoint is DTG are selling often flawed product (and core) at a not inconsiderable price. Issues get reported, issues get ignored and we now have a history of content and tech debt going back several years. Then the only time we see anyone from DTG is on the carefully managed streams where key questions are often ignored.

If you’re running a business that sells slightly imperfect goods, then you shouldn’t be afraid to show your face on the forums when people get a bit frustrated and agitated. It also seems to be DTG’s choice to ignore the forum in favour of Discord (which by all accounts is far worse than here) which only adds to the annoyance. For a company that has, what, 5 or 6 community managers before we get to product and department managers/producers, they’re not very good at PR…

 

I agree but respect goes both ways.

The company has misled the community ( at times directly lied) and a certain community moderator making comments labelling the community as unproductive about valid criticisms and discussing where blame lies on poor quality releases and following it up with stating that that devs don’t want to fix their mistakes because of how the community complains and we should be grateful that anything gets fixed (which to date no fix has been made) about issues is totally unprofessional.

Yes sections of the community do get angry and that can’t be condoned at all, but when you can’t get a refund from the store and the company responsible offers nothing but vague promises of looking in to it and then changes its story people don’t have a lot of options in trying to get value out of their purchases.

 

These are fair points, and I don't think anyone would be against voicing these concerns if anyone has them as long as that is done through the right channels and doesn't personally abuse people.

What I'm against is the amount of personal abuse and maliciousness contained in a lot of messages on this forum over the last year. These range from publicly attacking someones personality and making personal comments about them for the way they appeared on a live stream. The way certain people are going out of their way to be just purely malicious and spiteful on the AAS TVL (even though some of them didn't even own any of their content!). People making completely unfounded malicious comments and spreading unsubstantiated claims on threads and spreading misinformation just to stir up a reaction and discredit Devs undeservedly. That's just the tip of the iceberg...

As I've mentioned, I don't have to agree with whats being said, everyone has a right to voice their concerns and vent criticism so long as it is constructive. Where I draw a line is with the above, when it gets personal, and when it is completely unfounded, and it has gotten worse and worse over the last 12 months from my own observations.

There becomes a point of when we need to take responsibility as a community for our actions. DTGs moderation has a role to play to some extent, but people are old enough and in most cases consious enough and aware of what they are doing without needing their hands held.

 

Yes, I have to say that I have great sympathy for anyone who purchased that product in good faith. The response (or lack therof) from DTG has been shocking. Unfortunately though, when tempers boil over it makes valid criticism less meaningful. I feel like so many threads could do with a quick ‘clean out’ of off topic or over the line posts which would keep genuine, measured concerns and criticisms in the limelight rather than wandering into bickering between angry users who ultimately probably want the same thing!

 

unfortunately current evidence would suggest otherwise

 

So yesterday I watched some bodycam footage of a transit cop that "pulled over" a broken down car, the driver of which was a federal officer (not an agent, some technicality). The cop was very belligerent and argumentative, not believing that the guy was a fed despite the guy flashing him credentials, that should have been it really but the fed was just as standoffish and argumentative to the point he was detained for a good 20 minutes while the matter was ironed out. Sometimes a situation where you are frustrated and in the right, can escalate and when it does it no longer matters that you are right as you've escalated it to the point you are now in the wrong. It's like that on here quite a lot, folks are genuinely and understandably angry but it boils over from complaints about inferior products to personal attacks which then of course either kills the thread, or the argument.

The level of childishness on here does cause one to shake their heads, of course it's not as bad as some other places but of course anyone can join the 91st Chairborne Rangers and feel they can mouth off with impunity. As our forum accounts are not linked to our DTL accounts we rely on trust that when we are talking about our experience with a DLC, we are being genuine as there is no way to prove one way or the other that we actually own said DLC. This has been noted in particular with the Trent Valley and Brum-Crewe routes as pointed out by our good Sergeant from Sun Hill...

That said, the Devs and or their community team/PR team or whatever they are called need to step it up quite a bit. A lot of this is their fault for their inaction, threads pop up mentioning faults or other issues with newly released DLC and it's radio silence. Of course there are the feedback threads however they fall by the wayside within a few weeks. Look at the Class 90, I don't mean the shambolic state that it was released in but the threads on the topic, after some initial responses to comments/feedback it went quiet from the dev/DTG, to the point where ATS seemingly buggered off completely and let's not forget the infamous reply from a CM that the users are at fault for complaining. It's already a volatile situation and someone being paid to be a community manager goes and throws fuel on the fire, no wonder there was blowback! Don't forget that it then escalated further when several months after release we finally get a press release promising the world will be made whole again but also clearly showed that we were LIED to by ATS and DTG, that it wasn't a "wrong build sent out" as they had claimed, remember trust is earned and after that stunt both ATS and DTG lost credibility.

When you've got half the community considering legal avenues regarding taking devs and/or DTG to court it really shows how bad things have gotten. The question is, is there a way back from here? I'd say there is, the community need to behave better but DTG and 3rd party developers need to sort their guff out and fix longstanding issues, release their DLC and core games in the fit and proper state that is expected from their price tags and finally, communicate honestly and regularly with us, the community and the customers...

I'm still wrapping my head over that whole BS of speaking the British Language and translating DIRFT for non native speakers... FFS :/

 

I need a TL; DR, that's a lot of words before a coffee...

 

All we get from the community team is that they are soo busy. Yet the one time I ventured onto discord a CM was discussing if a pet snake was venomous or not! That’s how busy they are. Clearly the lethality of a discord members pet is a far more important topic then acknowledging genuine issues with the game.

And they wonder why we are getting frustrated to the point people take it too far?

 

zero words

 

To be honest, I do not see that much of personal abuse. Yes it does happen sometimes, but most arguments are against DTG as company and 3rd party devs and their practices. As people get frustrated, which I can understand with the state of the game and how DLC's are released, you'll see more complaints and the tone can shift towards a little less polite.

In my opinion it's first up to DTG to solve the excising issues and improve the quality of the products and the way of testing. When people are more happy with the game, most likely you will also see a difference in how people behave on the forums. Nowadays there is to much frustration, something only DTG can solve. The lack of communication (Class 90 for example) and/or the way of communication only makes it worse.

So I totally disagree with the statement we as community need to do better or improves ourselves, DTG needs to do better and I guess also some individuals here on the forums. You're now kind of blaming everyone on the forums, but most of them are just behaving politely. Everyone is responsible for their own behavior and we as group are not responsible for the behavior of individuals.

 

Half the community?

We had one on here once who was going to report DTG to trading standards. They wriggled out of it when some started to encourage them.

 

i absolutely agree. by all means, if you think a dlc is rubbish, say it loud and clear. explain everything wrong with it and if it’s a complete waste of money, say that too. i don’t see a problem with that. where the line is drawn is personal attacks against staff and other forum users, at the end of the day we’re all here for the same reason

 

Certainly DTG don't help themselves sometimes and constructive criticism should be something we all contribute to, but it's possible to do it in a nonconfrontational way and without hyperbole.

However you would think that when a senior member of staff steps away from the forums, someone who was engaging and helpful, that would be a warning sign to the "community". It clearly wasn't.

There is still too much unpleasantness from a few individuals towards staff plus now an abundance of "facts" and "stats" banded about which are clearly fanciful and certainly not the result of any research or of any substance.

I'm on here a lot less and realise these forums aren't an essential part of the trainsim experience. Several members have disappeared recently.

You reap what you sow.

 

Half the community want Legal Action?
Half the community do not?
But which half is right?
There is only one way to find out...................

 

I'm sorry, but this is an example of what needs to stop in these forums. A community manager is paid to engage with the community. You are now trying to call out the community manager for engaging with the community. This is not in any way justification for getting frustrated. Calm down, be constructive and aware that nothing is perfect. If you treat people with respect (even DTG employees!) then they might just afford you the same courtesy.

 

Which could have easily been squashed with a quick bit of moderation

 

Completely agree

 

You genuinely are overreacting. Please go outside and touch some grass.

 

Yes this is exactly the problem.

Quite ironic really that it should be given as an example in this very thread.

 

The quality of the engagement matters to, sorry but talking about cobra's while real issues like poor moderation on this very forum is very questionable. No different from judging a clerk for chatting up a customer for 15 minutes while they've got stuff in the back they need to be doing. Community managers are supposed to manage the community, that can include chatting with them when relevant. But if isn't about the game then no, that's not a part of their job, and it does come across as extremely unprofessional.

 

God forbid they show a human side!

The thing is the example given on Candace just engaging and being friendly with someone doesn't really hold upto criticism for me. I would be willing to make a bet that she has no responsibility for development for the game and her showing her human side and being friendly and being interactive isn't in anyway with holding updates to the game or affecting anyone. It seems to me people just nit picking for the sake of it. As far as I'm aware she takes in feedback and posts it back to the relevant people and is doing that job just fine. Also the style moderation on this forum people should be appreciative for... I am on RailUK and a few other forums which back in the day were quite fun to be on, but they went in the opposite direction and become so overly moderated and robotic I am only a lurker on the website now with about 1 post a year!

For me this is one of the forms of hostility I am on about. Doomed if they do, doomed if they don't. People would moan and criticise the forum has no human touch and was robotic if DTG staff didn't show their human side every once and while and have light hearted interactions, but would also moan and criticise them for having a light hearted chat with someone about a snake of all things and criticise them for 'not doing their job'?

That isn't unprofessional in anyway shape or form. At work I've had light hearted conversations with the public, in a professional but light hearted way that wasn't related to my job. Does that make me unprofessional and lazy? No, it doesn't. I get my job done but also have the courtesy to be polite with people who make conversation with me.

The implication that her (or any staff of dev or that matter) are just sitting around not doing their job is also slightly insulting. I've seen many threads locked, I've seen many instances where moderation has stepped in where necessary. They've done their jobs fairly efficiently and and fairly.

But is it any wonder that CMs or people even higher have taken a back seat on this forum and only post where necessary? Some of the overly harsh comments, overly harsh criticism, and sometimes damn right insulting comments (by the way which aren't constructive or helpful in anyway) are enough to put anyone off as they can't do right whatever they do.

As I've already mentioned, I'm not advocating for DTG and the game not to receive any criticism at all as that would be unhealthy, stifling valid criticism, and over the top. What I am advocating for is for people to stop being so unnecessarily rude and to think before they post... The last 12 months has got particularly worse and worse. The community managers can only do so much to stunt this behaviour, but forum members also have a role to play in taking responsibility for what they post, having etiquette towards others and voicing criticism in a non personal way, or making malicious comments that don't help anyone and are just outright nasty.

I'll concede, that some of this behaviour may have something to do with the state of the game. But half the people who share that frustration still manage to conduct themselves like adults without the need to personally attack or insult DTG staff or Devs.

You only have to look at the AAS TVL thread a few days before release, and how many insulting, unsubstantiated speculations, and derogatory posts there were as a most recent example of people acting like bratty children.

 

A lot of victim blaming here. Hint: When thinking goes from "I'm unhappy with DTG's actions" to "My abusive behavior toward DTG staff is their fault", that's when it's time to hit the brakes.

 

I’m really not sure I am, when official feedback posts are completely ignored for weeks about genuine problems players are facing with CTDs or broken scenarios and CMs response is we are too busy to respond yet they have time to talk about pets on discord then players are right to feel aggrieved, that said let’s make genuine complaints and comments against the company all we want, but personal attacks are never justified.

There’s a saying in retail and catering that if you’ve time to lean you’ve time to clean. That should go for CMs as well

 

Well this thread has proven its point.

 

I’m not sure painting DTG as the victim is fair. I’d say the poor sods who have spent their money on a product who are getting CTDs, spending time reporting this fact on official feedback threads and being ignored by the company that released it, whilst CMs are talking pets, are probably far greater victims, wouldn’t you?

 

I don't think I stated anything on game development side of things was there fault. I made a point to even state-

My issue is on something they can reasonably be expected to do, moderation of the forum, which people have pointed out for months has felt substandard.

All I can say is that I really don't have any desire for small talk with staff, they should be focused on community management, and delivering info on the game. Frankly I take a lot of issue with companies that try and create overly parasocial relationships with their fans.

And in my opinion those people are just wrong if that's their main issue with the forum, it's supposed to be for community discussion and delivering of info to us. If that gets delivered upon in either a human or inhuman way it doesn't matter. Maybe that matters to you, but part of the issue with framing this as a "community" problem is that we aren't the same and can differ. Heck, I don't agree with the guy I was defending on a lot of issues, but I just saw him make a point I agreed with and stepped in.

To which I'll point out I already addressed this.

There's a reason I specified that, to try and counter the criticism you've made here. The issue is people have complained about the moderation issues on the forums for months, yet I've now heard multiple times now that they're hanging out on Discord instead doing trivial matters despite claiming they lack time?

I don't see what you're even disagreeing with here, I fundamentally agree that it's fine if it isn't impacting your job, my issue is that I think it is. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it would be way worse in my mind to go around pretending that isn't what I'm thinking here.

It's the internet, DTG screwed up hard if they hired people expecting people not to be bad apples. No different than how customer service punishes workers who snap at people yelling abuse at them. Yes it sucks, but you're supposed to be better than to go to the same lows as them. The idea that any issues with the communication are justified by this I just can't agree with.

Also fundamentally if you consider posts like mine as abuse, then sorry but we have very different versions of that word. I really don't think we're all that different though, I feel like there's just misunderstandings going on.

 

No issue about that but when valid criticism is being ignored and players have not being heard because CMs are too busy, yet have time to chat then that is a problem in my book. Acknowledgment of an issue is a fundamental part of customer service, off topic chatting while ignoring a customer with a genuine issue with their purchase is bad customer service.

 

Just for clarification, I don't consider your post to be abusive, no. Yes it takes the opposite stance to mine, but is no more, or no less valid to what I've got to say on the this issue. We just have strongly different opinions on this matter.

All I can say is we have massively different points of view. There's nothing more I can add to what I've already stated, as I imagine is the same with your own post. Our views are strong and opposing, but they are open for others to see and make there own minds up on should they be interested.

 

Respect is a very interesting word. We should all behave correctly, not only in forums but everywhere as a general rule. However many people forgets that respect goes in the two directions and also forgets that this is not a fan club, but a business. In business you build respect with your actions and with your products, because people pays and therefore expects to receive goods in accordance. This rule is very simple indeed but is the basis of everything else that comes afterwards, like healthy forums, popular events, etc.

Once you have your customers respect, and you maintain it over the years, you don´t need community managers nor even a very intense forum moderation. Customers join forums just to share their good experience with product and their passion, they purchase content, particitape in events and join any activity related to the product. However, if your product starts to degrade and you don´t react correctly or in time, then respect drops in accordance and it drops really fast. I can agree that in such situation we, as customers, can still decide to keep the good mood and so on, but this will only help to maintain the fan club alive, not the product. If you really want to improve the product you need to point to the mistakes, request error fixing and push DTG to solve them. And at some point you may need to take it seriously and simply stop supporting DTG. Sorry, but this is how any business works.

I joined forum on 2018 and I played all titles. Forum was much different in those years, but product too. Many of us have seen the long term evolution and have actively supported DTG purchasing content for years because the initial concept was really good and both DTG and users were on the same page. But we have also seen how DTG behaves and how much this has changed compared to the early days. This is not new. Things started to change many years ago indeed.

As of today, I will just say DTG is not going in the correct direction in my opinion, and indeed it deviates from the correct direction exponentially as time passes by. I don´t want anything bad happens to the company nor the staff, for sure, and I only wish they realize a change in their approach is really needed, so that we can all see a fresh restart, improved product quality and therefore some of that respect for customers, because we deserve it as well.

My current played hours according to Steam (you can imagine how DLC purchasing evolved in accordance):

• TSW2: 1394h
• TSW3: 20h
• TSW4: 367h
• TSW5: 5h
• TSW6: 2h

I didn´t post for a long time and I just pretend to be constructive, so please don´t get me wrong

Best wishes.

 

All this is happening because TSW is at the end of its cycle.
Don't regret what you purchased or the time spent with this program.
Look to the future with optimism.
Things will change sooner or later.

 

I wish I shared your optimism, but time and time again throughout business you can find examples of when companies stop actively listening to their customers the most common outcome is going out of business.

 

Sometimes a radical change is necessary to regain credibility.
But there may not be the strength and will to make it happen.
I'm waiting on the sidelines, waiting for something new...

 

It's not either/or. When it's about DTG's business practices harming the customer, we're the victim. When it's about members of the community being abusive to DTG staff, they're the victim. Claiming cause and effect, i.e. "you make me do this", is classic abuser manipulation.

 

Where have I ever condoned or attacked staff? Quite frankly you need to watch with your accusations

 

Not an accusation, unclear wording, which is on me and I apologize. That wasn't meant as a direct quote of you, but a paraphrase of a justification people have used.

 

Fair enough and I’m sorry for jumping to that conclusion. I certainly don’t think any abuse is ever justified.