Upcoming Strange Changes To The Forums...

Link to original DTG post:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/upcoming-changes-to-the-dovetail-games-forums.98469/

Quote from there:

So the "General discussion" section from TSW forums is being deleted... but "General discussion" section from TSC remains?

Now don't get me wrong, I feel the general discussion forum here has some very useful and helpful thread (ie: the "Latest sale" thread), so I'm glad it will remain.

But I am puzzled - why remove the TSW one and leave the TSC one? Is it just scale (as in TSW has more users, thus more difficult and costly to moderate?)

 

What does it matter? This forum is basically used to show screenshots and complain or praise 3 party offerings. It's not like there is a real TSC community here anymore.

 

The TSC community are mostly on ATS Facebook.

 

Even if they're removing things like General Discussion at the TSW side of the forums for "moderation scale" purposes it's still such a strange choice. The primary purpose for most in these forums is to have a central place to discuss topics about either TSC or TSW, and now the TSW side, who have a community far more active than us, will not have a place to discuss general things they would like to talk about when it comes to TSW and it will kill off a large part of their social community as a result. People will now be forced to stick to things like Facebook Groups and Discord Servers, which come with their own variety of problems and neither are as accessible as these forums, where both cater to very different demographics of users. The way I see it, the TSW side of the forums will now become focused on what is essentially glorified tech support channels rather than a community centre. Many over that side of the pond are clearly very upset about this decision with many stating that they just will not use services such as Discord, Reddit, etc because as I mentioned they can be a real mess at times depending what community you've decided to end up in. The toxicity can get pretty rough here but it gets worse in places such as those especially because they're not moderated or looked after by actual employees of the game it's focused on.

Yes, the TSC side of the forums have dwindled in activity massively. I rarely see familiar faces I once saw here anymore when I first joined a few years back and the social atmosphere has gotten more toxic overtime I feel but I would still be heartbroken if we lost our General Discussion page. As you say it is still useful from time to time and personally despite the state it is in now it would be upsetting to see the loss of a place where I have made many friends and memories over the years as I dived back into TSC in the early 2020s. A part of it is because I tend to be too sentimental over some things, but oh well. I may not play TSW or engage in their discussions or community as TSC as always been more up my alley than TSW but I still feel bad for them.
It's not too bad for us as the loss of our Off Topic and Introduction topics is not all that impactful as they haven't been used all that much in recent times and don't serve much of a significant purpose anymore. Meanwhile, the TSW forums is having the heart of their community ripped out and many are righteously devastated by it because of the memories and connections they may have made within their community over the years.

On TSW's announcements post regarding the situation, it has at least been stated with a follow-up that DTG are "considering potential modifications to the original plan" so hopefully in the end they can keep their General Discussion topic alive somehow.

 

I play both games so post in both fora.

The TSW community are very displeased and a couple of them seem resolved to start an independent TSW forum. How will DTG like criticism somewhere they can't control?

My own take on this is that DTG seem to be in a bit of a crisis at the moment, and I think the number of community staff is going to be reduced. Hence the need to reduce the community load.

 

And if the TSW General Discussion goes, a lot of useful historic advice on setup and modding will go to. That will be a loss.

 

Not being a senior citizen in any way myself, I still see discord or social media as offering a very different function than forums. They might be good for friendly chit-chat or showing off recent livestreams, but it is just impossible to find anything. If there was a helpful post or good troubleshooting advice... good luck finding it 2 days later!

A forum is different. Clearly separated into threads, much easier to find things. Forums are much better for sharing information, rather than just 'good vibes' and whatnot.

Agreed, the introduction section could easily be replace by a pinned thread "Introduce Yourself" in the general section.

Great point.

Which seems odd, at least to me. I obviously don't have an inside view into their books, but after a few years of only marginally successful TSW DLCs (and the whole "Steam in TSW was so bad we ain't gonna make it no more" fiasco), they have now grabbed a popular franchise deal (TTTE) and that new product seems to have been received warmly by most, including some old-time unhappy critics. The sales of that product seem to be good too and that franchise has a lot of profitable and relatively easy to produce DLC engines and route addons.

I dunno, but from a distance it seems DTG are doing better now than they ever had since covid.

In principle, I really appreciate what TSW aims to offer — the idea that you’re not just driving trains, but can step out of the cab, couple wagons by hand, walk around stations, and experience the environment more fully. On paper, I’m also exactly the kind of player who should love TSW’s steam content. I have a real fondness for the BR green era in northern England and the final years of steam; it’s probably my favourite period in railway history.

In practice, though, the current implementation hasn’t quite landed for me. The steam locomotive mechanics and overall driving feel seem a bit off, and the controls come across as clunky and not very intuitive. What’s interesting is that these issues don’t seem to affect TS Classic’s steam locomotives, especially those created by strong third‑party developers like Caledonia Works. Compared directly, TSW’s steam experience just doesn’t feel as competitive yet.

I also struggle a bit with TSW’s pricing and product strategy. In many other simulator franchises, if you buy a DLC that includes vehicles or stock you already own from another pack, you receive a proportional discount. TSW doesn’t appear to follow that model. For example, if I already own Peak Forest, then I already have all the locomotives and rolling stock from Spirit of Steam. In that situation, I would expect a meaningful discount when purchasing Spirit of Steam, paying essentially for the route alone. But that’s not how TSW’s pricing structure currently works.

 

I would not agree with that.

Maybe some players of UK Locos and Routes use ATS but they don't have any European or other countries.
I have not seen people who post here also posting on the ATS Facebook page

 

Is your view because you asked for some help and did not get it because most people here don't build locos or stock?

You are American but you don't ask other US modellers to help you

I realise you won't see this reply because you don't post here any more.

 

My view? Look at all that I've posted since January. Look what I have created...Then look at the input I got from the TSC users in this forum. A bare minimum. Look how many questions I've asked in that same amount of time, look how many got answered. Most where answered from one helpful person. Also look how I was actually willing to pay someone for unique content to be made. I got zero replies on that. That thread still sits without replies today.

At this point I am questioning why I'm making anything at all. It's really no fun if you can't find at least a few people that share your same interests.

 

There are a couple of extensive threads in TSW about this. Seems there is a possibility DTG may step back from their decision but not holding my breath. And while TSC might be unscathed at present, don’t count your chickens - they are killing off Fishing and Catan forums which to the best of my knowledge these are still live games, so it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to just nuke this area as well. Oh well, TSW, TSC, looks like the only place we can post will be in the wretched Wonders Of Sodor area of the board. And then get permabanned!

 

It makes sense. DTG was never great at maintaining their products - I used to call them a marketing company, promoting churned content and then letting it go. In that context it doesn't make much sense to discuss anything. The screenshot contest is a marketing tool as well.

Our luck is that CMs are practically banned from TSC - they didn't even unpin contest threads, or wrap things up. I'd assume that as long as we're fairly civil, we'll be allowed to exist.

I still think that TSC could have a healthy pensioneer life with minimum care. There is still some content coming out, Jamie could still run mini-contests around new content for bits of engagement. I suppose the Dutch content got dropped. Without these, it does feel like an abandoned retirement home, some people lingering habitually until they don't.

 

I always remember the undertaking made by the DTG Manager looking after TSC at the time, to put in nameable station signs (similar to those in Trainz) as part of the core content to assist with putting routes on Workshop that otherwise couldn’t if you had to create your content. It never happened as did the oft requested improvements to the route editor over the years, like better terrain texture painting (again more like Trainz) and the ability to easily add at a UI level, more terrain textures to the palette.

 

I feel like this is just going to move threads from closing sections to other sections where they do not suit.

 

One of the CM’s (the one contracted in from the US PR company) is already threatening to permaban members if they try to circumvent the new arrangements in that manner.

I tell you what, I’m pretty close to deleting everything DTG off my HD - TSW in particular - and not sending them a single penny in future. I just bought X Plane 12 in the Steam sale and I think that will do quite nicely instead of juddery A to B runs on identical TSW routes.

 

Point of order, Vern. That was when some members suggested using the TSC general discussion forum to post threads about TSW. She was pointing out how ludicrous it would be for people to do that on purpose and she would be forced to spend all day handing out bans (probably temporary) for anyone doing so. Just like TSW players like me can see the TSC forum, so can the people running the forum. I’m sure TSC players would be reporting anyone doing that too. There have been no threats of permanent bans for anything.

 

Fair point, but without going overboard on semantics - ban implies something permanent, something temporary would be described as suspension, forum “holiday” or restricted posting rights (i.e. put on mod approval).

And most of the comments in that vein were tongue in cheek, more the incredulity that TSC which DTG now barely support keeps it’s GD forum whereas TSW (probably) doesn’t.

 

I love it how TSW thoughts come in to pollute the TSC pages. As usual Vern is never happy whenever he posts. I am still having lots of fun with TSC and still posting all of my runs on my web site. Some really nice content from RSSLO of late!

 

Agreed
If people wish to winge about TSW they should do it on those pages

 

Once again we dive into "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" with the usual suspects running on.

 

Personally I am against the changes to the forums. Would it make me uninstall DTG products or stop buying them? No of course not. I bought them because I enjoy them, not because there was a forum I could post on. Regardless of the issues TSC and TSW are the best we've got.

DTG have never been great at communicating apart from one previous CM, and I see the removal of GD just a other case of them shooting themselves in the foot. It's unnecessary in my opinion and if they'd moderated it properly at the start we wouldn't be here. At the very least I hope they archive it. Amongst all the complaining and conspiracy theories, there is a hell of a lot of useful information.

As for the TSC GD remaining, it's no longer an actively developed product by DTG and it generates a lot less forum traffic so I guess that's why it gets a stay of execution. Again there is a huge amount of information there. I fixed a missing asset last week thanks to a post from 5 or 6 years ago, if anything I'd be more annoyed losing that than the TSW one.

 

Apologies if my previous post in this thread wandered into that teritorry. Still, I think I offered a fair and polite comparison between TSW and TSC, pointing out some issues with the former that make me keep playing TSC instead of moving to TSW.
No harm intended, I'm dedicated to keeping this forum friendly and civil, while keeping open the option of expressing level-headed, non-hateful critcism.

Agreed 100%. That's exactly what I menat byu saying taht forums are much better vehicles for sharing information than say social media. They allow you to search threads easily and your posts from yesterday can potentially keep helping people 10 years into the future or more.

 

Just to clarify, I also wasn't seriously proposing bringing TSW discussions into this area, it was more exasperation that DTG can keep a General Discussion going for the unsupported in all but name TSC (and the WOS which hardly anyone plays). So just be aware if they are looking to make further reductions in what the Community Managers actually have to manage this section could be next, particularly if they feel the new forum guidelines on conduct are being crossed, where responders play the person not the ball (aka topic).

 

Is that an american content site? It may surprise you, but there is a world outside of that.

 

Not for me. I'm into American sites that models old school railroading. It seems to be a very small niche that us old timers like. It's definitly a small niche and getting smaller by the day.

 

ATS is Alan Thompson Sim and they make content for TSC & TSW plus a lot of third party add-ons are hosted there.
https://alanthomsonsim.com/
But it is UK only so why gee seems to think most players of TSC are on ATS I don't know.

 

Maybe getting confused with ATS as in American Truck Simulator, from SCS?!

 

He is talking about ATS - Alan Thomson Simulator and the FB page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1524678610893349