This loco is currently a very appealing £4.79 in the Steam sale but, while most of the reviews are positive, they nevertheless mention an issue with poor steaming and low top speed which prevents the loco operating to its full potential of the prototype. There was a patch on the now defunct UKTS, which doesn't seem to have made it across to Train Sim Community. So jus t wondering if the author/DTG ever patched this or is it still in the original state? Is it still worth getting if that's the case?
The Steam Sounds Supreme sound pack corrects some problems, and it seemed to work well when I last played it, though that's a few years ago.
Its performance is, quite basically, rubbish and I dumped my purchase. It is totally gutless power-wise - I now use the Caledoania Works Princess which works well but still long for a decent Duchess to replace the old IHH one I have which has its own issues that make driving difficult. I'm surprised that with so many steam loco developers falling over each other to produce that same thing that nobody has done so. It is the only purchase I have ever asked for a refund on, but their automatic response repeatedly claimed I wasn't entitled to it, quoting that I had been playing the game a considerable time longer that actually existed between purchase and my request (!), and it seemed there was no way to point that out to a human being. So into the virtual rubbish bin it went. John
Thanks for the info guys. Think I will pass on this one then, was a bit wary when I saw the developer listed as DTG rather than one of the respected steam experts. Noted re the SSS sound pack but not that keen on supporting them anymore after the mess they have left Stainmore in (not entirely their fault, I know). I still have a few Bossman and Victory items to grab or the dreaded Meshtools LNWR G2 which flummoxed me on the first try and I ended up refunding. And John, yes a strange one with your refund, The only circumstances I can think how that might happen is if you play the game but not the add on straight away it counts towards your two hour refund window (even time spent in the editor). I got caught once with TSW on that, bought something, due to the lousy solo save slot decided to finish up a run already started on another route. Then by the time I got round to playing the new DLC and decided it was pants, it was too late.
It was odd indeed, something must have gone wrong with their timing system as the overall length of time from purchase to claim was only about 90 minutes. But heigh ho, getting a refund on digital goods is a priviledge anyway so I soon let it go from my mind. I did get a refund from another developer once on the grounds that his software needed fixing and he wasn't prepared to do so within a reasonable time, but he did get extremely nasty with me after he discovered I had that legal right. The IHH Duchess was specifically developed for a preservation group that own a real one, and it may be that Dovetail were persuaded to do the same - perhaps they didn't care to put too much effort into it for that reason. The IHH one had near perfect power-output, so its a shame Dovetail didn't just adopt that, but it did need a week's notice to stop. I have never put it to the test, but it may have been configured to only work with air-braked stock. Anyway, I'm rambling. Good luck with whatever you do decide to get in the end. Best regards, John
No, no, don't give up on Duchess of Sutherland. You need two ESSENTIAL things to transform the standard poor-performing DLC into a magnificently performing loco worthy of its real-life big brother. You need the SSS sound pack to get the great sounds and prototypical wheel-slip. Then, to put the sparkle in the performance you need to download and install a community pack called 'Duchess_patch_100814_V1 (TSD_FILE 105)'. https://ia600409.us.archive.org/vie...-34000/UKTS_33232_Duchess_patch_100814_V1.zip Install those two enhancements and if you have the Stainmore route then you will love storming up Shap with 13 on. Just keep the fire big at 70% or so and cutoff at below 30%. Just don't forget it drinks the water on full chat! The inside cab forward-view is also improved hugely. Superb.... Quote from the patch file readme.txt: - This patch has created to correct the poor steaming ability and resolve issues braking vacuum braked stock via the tender. It also decreases the rolling friction coefficient of both locomotive and tender, and makes a few changes to the cab animations: Automatic small ejector handle when vacuum brakes are in operation. Vacuum reservoir side reads 21 inches when vacuum brakes are in operation. Loco air brake pressure needles animate in response to both train brakes and loco brakes. The above animation changes were hidden scripted features that for reason or another, didn't make it into the final product. I would not have been able to "unhide" them if it wasn't for the help and instructions from Meshtools developer, Edward Fisk.
I grabbed the Duchess and the performance mod, will see how that rocks before grabbing the SSS payware sound one.
It's a good sound pack. In case it helps, Steam Sounds Supreme have a sale on at the moment. Only issue is that you need to spend £5 and the pack is £4.50. I'm probably going to pick up the Jinty sound pack myself.
Yes, thanks indeed from me too, Michael, you have rekindled my interest. I haven't purchased the sound enhancements yet, but want to be sure it works well first. Power is certainly good, but: I have no whistle sounds The scenario Save option is greyed out If the AWS sounds a horn, there is no way to cancel it and you grind to a halt and can do nothing more. Has anybody else experienced this? I think meanwhile I will set up a new test scenario and see if that still occurs. Maybe a reinstall too. John
Was that with or without the performance mod, John? I will fire it up later to test but won't be until after teatime.
That was with the add-on. Am in the process of reinstalling and testing in steps, but its taking time owing to domestic chores . . . J
Quick one for michaeloward - that link only opens a description of the zip file contents. I can't find any way to actually download it. Trying to check Trainsim dot com see if it's one of the files they rescued but their site seems to be snoozing.
Well . . . this is curious! I'm not saying this will happen for all users, it may be something else on my 'pooter causing this. As I have found the solution, I'm not bothered about spending hours finding what is causing it. With or without the enhancement, as soon as the loco is loaded in a scenario, about 50% of the keyboard output becomes inoperative. I can't even press F2 to save the scenario, the only way to save it is to use the mouse on the big arrow bottom right for "play". In game, that situation persists which is why I encountered the issues I mentioned above. But a poke arpund with the mouse on the F4 controls persuaded the whistle to work. Then I tried the bell button - and up popped a message "Legacy Mode Selected" and everything burst into life as it should be. Subsequent pressing of that button or using the B key did not revert things to how they were before so it is drivable in either mode. Whether that switch with the B key is from the original model or the enhancement, I'm not sure. So I am good to go. I'm not sure I will bother with the Steam Sounds Supreme enhancement, the existing sounds are not that awful and I find that some of their products interefere with other things. The standard sounds' Stanier whistle sounds superb. I left it cruising along with 12 Mk1a at 83 mph which is probably about right, so I'll get back to that and see how we'll do on Beattock. John
I noted that but figured you might need all of the files to avoid the issues that Mike was having. Anyhow vanilla I was able to save okay and inadvertently hit B to switch to legacy mode and also still okay (so it is an original function). However it consumes an inordinate amount of steam, with 35% regulator and 25% cutoff on level terrain the boiler pressure was dropping steadily and that was only at around 50 MPH. So next stage will be to grab what files I can from that zip and tame the steam consumption. Like Mike, I thought the supplied sounds are good enough, the main thing is getting a positive rate of steam generation. Definitely a keeper and I want to thrash this south from Glasgow on a 13 coach rake of Matrix P3 LMS stock.
If you use this link : ukts-archive-files-33001-34000 directory listing you should be be able to scroll down to the correct zip file (33232) and download the whole thing.
Thanks for that though on checking it is just those four files. All now placed in the relevant folders (after extracting then renaming the ap file), so about to see how she rocks! As an aside, the manual for the add on is absolute pants! It doesn't even tell you what the differences between standard and advanced mode are let alone any custom/special key commands!
Happy to say, up and running. Glad I persisted as she's a magnificent beast. Coming south out of Glasgow with 15 assorted Matrix P3 coaches (including some sleeping cars) I am in heaven. Glad I persevered and thanks to all for their help and encouragement. Will be taking this on tour - TSW eat your one handled purgatory heart out. Steam consumption as you would expect. Drops when the injectors are on but balanced nicely otherwise under power. The only slight bug I encountered was I had to toggle B a couple of times to get the exhaust sounds to work. But as noted earlier they are actually pretty darn good and no rush to buy the SSS replacements. I have a soft spot for the Duchess class having travelled on the famous Railtour in early 1985 which was steam hauled by sister loco Duchess Of Hamilton from Leeds, around the Durham Coast to Newcastle, across to Carlisle and then returning via the S&C. A grand day out even though it meant setting off at 0400 in the snow to drive fromSwindon to Peterborough then back again afterwards.
Couple of observations… On loading a saved game boiler pressure had dropped to 162.5psi whereas when I saved it was 200+. That cramped my style on the climb towards the first summit before Carstairs when speed was down to around 35 MPH. Though notably it never dropped any lower so looks like with the mod, you will never run out of steam which is too much the other way. Also, it is consuming water at a slightly alarming rate. Passing Symington and already down to around 1750 gallons in the tender so will be touch and go if I make Carlisle, as I don’t think Keith Ross put any water columns on this modern era route. In reality, even with 15 on, I’m sure a Duchess would do Glasgow to Carlisle with water to spare.
I have yet to complete my run in the other direction (it is saved near Carstairs for later completion), but my observations are that it is probably now a bit over-powered. I hit the climb at Beattock at 70 mph (line speed was 75 in steam days) and it appeared I could sustain that all the way to the top (until I hit the long stretch of 60 limit) which would not be realistic. So I suspect the mod over-powers the engine a bit but I can happily live with that and ease back on the controls. It will be interesting to see if I make Glasgow without running out of water. Southbound should be a plod - I remember reading that it was so more-or-less all the way from Glasgow to Craigenhill although you don't feel it is a climb in the game. This would have been partly caused by some awkward speed restrictions in steam days, though. I could give a plug for my 1960s backdating of the route if you want water columns . . . . There were of course several troughs to choose from too in steam days. John
Funny I was just thinking there would be water troughs for the express services to refill without stopping. Unfortunately I don’t think there is any way in TSC to simulate adding extra water to the tender without physically doing so on the route (I.e. no console command or cheat). Well if I can make it over Beattock with 1000 gallons left in the tender probably in with a chance, but if I get the same issue loading the save of the boiler pressure dropping then perhaps not. To avoid that, guessing the best course is to try and get the heavy work out of the way in the first session without having to save and load. Another couple of issues I found last night while trying to reduce water and steam consumption, is that the blower seems to be permanently on and can’t be turned off with either Shift-N or physically with the mouse. The small ejector is also supposed to be behind the train brake valve but I couldn’t find an interactive spot with the mouse to close it slightly, assuming of course its effects are actually simulated. So rock and a hard place with this one it seems. Either the very nerfed OG version or the over buffed mod which never runs out of steam but needs Niagara Falls to service the boiler. Might have to bite the bullet and buy the SSS mod, but the wife has already glowered at me about my recent train simming spend so might have to wait a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I’ll carry on with my run, see what happens but if need be start over with a slightly lighter load and give myself enough time to get past Beattock or at least Carstairs before having to save.
Hi Vern, No, there is no way to emulate troughs that I know of except with a few third-party locos specially designed to do so - I don't know how they work as I don't have any of them. My solution to that problem would be to split the scenario into two parts and start the second part with a suitable amount of water in the tender, with a rolling start configured. I use a lot of rolling starts owing to AI traffic using too much memory otherwise (a long steam-hauled freight will eat it like a bar of chocolate!) as I like full AI traffic per timetable for realism. Everybody's preferences are different, I get the impression you drive in "advanced" mode where as I am a lazy driver in "simple" mode, instead enjoying the scenery and ambience. After resuming from save, my pressure was as I left it (237). I will polish my halo and declare arrival at Glasgow with 2414 gallons of water to spare. Is that realistic? Definitely not! In fact I don't think the water dropped at all after resuming from the save. But that much should have got me there anyway. The brakes take a bit of getting used to, but I managed to not hit the stops at Glasgee! But, quirks and all, I shall create some proper scenarios and continue to use the loco occasionally. Extremely grateful to Michael for the tip on the performance fix, allowing me to resurrect the loco from its grave. Best regards, John
Hi John/Vern - it seems that I added water scoop functionality to the Duchess (for my own amusement) some years ago. If you are interested then I can dig that out, re-test it and let you have a copy?
Appreciate the offer but only of use if there are troughs on the route of course. Going back to John’s thoughts, I have been driving in legacy mode and with AI fireman on, though maybe the latter has contributed to the rather high consumption I’ve encountered. I’m also doing a Quick Drive so wondering if the train didn’t spawn with a full tender. Still, good fun though and I’ll update later how I get on. Next up after this will be a run with the Meshtools LNWR G6 though maybe on a shorter and less challenging route!
Interesting! Same driving configuration as me, then - apart from my setting up a temporary standard scenario.. My style of driving was to not exceed 90% regulator and tootle along at around 22-24% cut-off. In the 1960s, maximum line speed north of Gretna was 75 mph so I rarely exceeded 70. Not sure how that compares with your style, but might explain my lesser usage of water. Whether I would have run dry if I hadn't stopped and restarted I couldn't say. You would also need troughs specially configured, I suspect, which would mean you would have to buy a loco that includes them. Unless Neil has another trick up his sleeve to make it work. I shall be fine, thanks, Neil, but that's a kind offer. John
Made it with 500 gallons to spare but had to drive the last 30 miles or so at around 30% regulator and 20% cutoff to conserve water. Phew.
I have the Duchess of Sutherland with the SSS pack. I ran the scenario Uphill Battle on the Settle-Carlisle route with no issues. I have found that driving this loco keep the fire mass at around 60%. When starting, you don't need much regulator, maybe 10%, or else you get wheel slip.
Just remember the £5 minimum spend. So buying the Duchess pack on its own isn't going to get any discount. Not too much of an issue spending over £5 for me, I really like their sound packs.
I strongly do recommend the SSS sound pack for the improvements they make. I think you will be glad you did! Its on sale now anyway, 40% off. Go for it....
Hmmm, that's one of my dislikes of some SSS add-ons. Inexperienced drivers on heritage lines might slip and slide all over the place, but the factor is over-exaggerated for historic main line use. I had to modify the slip level on his Black 5 "improvements", it could hardly move itself with realistic loads. I shall manage without, I had no problem keeping steam up nor with consumption of water. Maybe you need to treat the good lady more gently, Vern. If it was just a sound pack, I might have considered it . . . although as I said the sounds aren't that awful as they stand. John PS - if anybody wants to adjust the slip factor, I have some notes here I can share
If anyone has a problem downloading the full zip pack for the Duchess modification, it is only an 18KB zip file so I will be happy to email it to anyone who wants it.
I find that the slip factors are usually quite realistic where they are included and I like that. I don't like TSC models steam or diesels, that don't have wheelslip, as that.is just too unrealistic. Steam locos always tend to slip their wheels unless managed properly when starting especially in damp conditions. Steam drivers are taught to start off with full cut-off and low steam chest pressure - around 80psi or so. The regulator must be initially 'pumped' to maintain the pressure down low until the train moves off and steam consumption increases. If you start with a lower cut-off and high steam chest pressure, wheelslip, if it happens, will be prolonged and quite wild until the steam circuit discharges the pressure. If you are struggling to get going because of wheel-slip, just hold the x-key down, which simulates sanding by inhibiting the wheel-slip. Steam locos, unlike diesel or electric locos, can develop maximum torque at standstill and the torque decreases with speed. Reducing cut-off with increasing speed is essential for two reasons. Firstly to economise on steam and coal usage, but just as importantly, to prevent back-pressure from the exhausting steam from limiting the speed.. Gresley gas-flowed the A4 steam ports to assist with steam in and out of the cylinders for this reason. The GWR Kings were speed-limited by back-pressure, but when BR gas-flowed a King as a trial they reckoned it was good for 120mph! I recall Jeremy Clarkson was on the footplate of Tornado at 70mph going up a gradient when it wheel-slipped, to his amazement!
I respect your opinon, Michael, but still believe the SSS modifications I have experienced with other locomotives are way too excessive. Perhaps it is fine for this loco. Most TSC locos do emulate wheel slip, just not at such extreme levels. The factors are coded in. On the Black 5 I mentioned, it will slip quite easily with, say, thirty freight wagons on, especially on gradients and in slippery weather, without any enhancements. John
I have the Duchess and SSS sound enhancement pack installed, but not the mod files linked to above. The SSS pack makes a noticeable difference to performance. She will slip while stationery with regulator closed (obviously a bug), but once moving only slips when applying high power at moderate speed. Turning on sand stops the slipping. Steam generation is much improved and on the Falmouth Branch with a 70% fire mass I can maintain 50 mph up a 1:60 with 13 on almost indefinitely it seems, as steam generation stays positive (just). She's a thirsty girl though. Under those conditions water consumption is just matched by injector feed. Interestingly, with or without the SSS pack, the damper setting makes little difference to steam generation, which can't be right.
