Nürnberg - Ingolstadt (and Feucht) Discussion Threa

Lot of wild assertions about ICE 1s, so lets take a deep dive!

Here is the list of all ICEs stopping at Ingolstadt for Fahrplan year 2017 (December 2016 -> December 2017). Note that this includes some seasonal and weekend only services:
https://www.fernbahn.de/datenbank/s...[]=zuglinie&fv_suche_detail=1#fv_suche_detail

There are 98 listed services.

If you further filter by train type, you get:
- 18 ICE 1 services (almost entirely München <-> Hamburg)
- 29 ICE 2 services (Mostly München <-> Hamburg/Bremen/Lübeck/Oldenburg and other northerly stuff)
- 28 ICE 3 services (almost entirely München <-> Dortmund)
- 2 ICE 4 services (München <-> Hamburg)
- 25 ICE T services (all kinds of cool places)

(the numbers don't add up to 98, as a couple services were serviced by multiple types of trains)

 

The older ICE Are almost replaced with the ICE 4 now

 

It apparently was in the same files as the UK one, yes.

 

From the Q&A summary, the 401 is not listed as drivable, which seems crazy to me. Certainly a shame.

 

Plus a few skip Ingolstadt.

 

Personally, this DLC is a bit of a let-down for me, as I’m not interested in driving an ICE at full throttle and pressing the Sifa button every now and then.

I’d been hoping for more, which is why I watched DTG’s livestream yesterday.

 

Glad to hear it!

 

The Munex cab car and the 403 have suspension, only the standard 101 doesn't.

 

Was going to point this out but you beat me to it.

 

401 run over the line and this image also proves it litterly the ice 1 runs over this line bc there part of the long journey from hamburg to munchen via hannover kassel wurzburg nurmberg ingolstadt

 

Why is this new route being approved for release when DTG has declared that TSW6 rolling stock must support the suspension function? What's the rationale for this exception? Why aren't we adhering to DTG standards? We're continuing to create further chaos!

Not only is the developer failing to deliver on its promises to implement new features for old content when used in new projects, but we're also continuing to release new content that doesn't meet new standards. This is outrageous.

 

One thing that was skipped in the preview stream this time but is usually done in others was showing all the timetable for each of the main stock services, and showing the journey mode chapters.

 

This was explained in the stream. DTG gave the normal 101 to TSG for free to use in this DLC. If they upgrade it, they would be devaluing the original 101 DLC as the best version would now be in this new DLC.

It makes sense from a business perspective, but from the users POV it just doesn't because as you said, TSW6 DLC should have suspension. Period.

Also brings the question why the 403 could be upgraded, as it also devalues previous 403s.

 

So that one of the trains is missing suspension is 'outrageous' and 'creating chaos'? Don't you think that's a bit much?

 

It doesn't seem so, and it's not too much! Next up, Tadami! And so on...!

 

The 403 got most of its upgrades because William and myself did way too much scopecreep and unpaid voluntary work to push it as far as in the expert territory as possible on this DLC without extreme model/art changes and within the time we had. We are just way too train-nerdy and always do more than the expected featureset because we do it as our passion. The 403 had an original scope of "fix typos/bugs in screens, implement tsw6 core features, add new traction sounds". Now it got the full expert display service (so people with knowledge can just add new faults/widgets to it) and some expert faults instead of the default dtg faults, basically all sounds got a rework from new recordings i made, the simugraph/RVM got a thiccccc upgrade by william and has a lot of features prepared to use but weren't added because of time (like working traction modifications (lockable motors, circuitbreakers) and many more. Even the safety loops like SBS,FÜS,... got implemented as prototypical as possible.
Its a bit sad this now gets used as a "they did it there, why not with this one" and tbh i'm steadily losing my will to do this voluntary work on DTG products if the community just throws <insert bad thing> at us for it.

 

It looks like you did a great job with that, it looked and sounded fantastic! Please don't let yourself be discouraged by a minority in this 'community' that apparently insists on focussing on the negatives (if you can even call it that).

 

Most people are impressed with ICE3 though? Even I, who isn’t a huge fan of ICE’s IRL, is interested in it as it looks & sounds like it’ll be a great experience.

The problem really is more about the quantity of DLCs that keep offering the same rolling stock, which is compounded when said rolling stock doesn’t even match the level of existing stock.

The Munex sets were always going be a big factor in this pack for people, so I’m not surprised that people are disappointed by it. It would be like an Austrian route coming with a Nightjet that’s using the RT BR182 as its loco. I’m not going to get into the 442 as I think it would be obvious as to why people would be disappointed with that.

 

Why have that got use the 442 from koln aachen why couldn't they use the one from dresden.

 

Pft, don't listen to the choosybeggars and simply keep doing what you're passionate about. It is benefiting the community in the long term whether some people say it isn't or not. And if not for the people that still support your choices, at least keep doing it for yourselves, yknow, lol. It's great to be proud of what you've done.

If anything the observation in this regard I'd done in the QandA thread (of also updating previous 403s), I recognize would benefit even people who've given you nothing (e.g. MAG only owners) and that isn't right per se. But as users keeping track of what has what and works where, is quite ass. Now for example if a new non-TSG route comes out that utilizes the BR403 will it also be defaulted back to one worse than yours, as they cannot simply take yours?

 

you’ve done a fantastic job, it’s a shame that people are giving you a hard time for doing more than they could ever do

 

Because S-Bahn Nürnberg has 4 wagen

 

It may drive better, but looks worse. Not the right consists and the white stripe. Honestly, the Köln one looks way better

 

Have they at least improved the koln aachen version cause it was horrible to drive at night.

 

No, there were no changes made to it

 

Thats a shame I kinda on the fence with this route on one hand the improved 403 looks amazing and on the other so much reused stock .

 

I mean this with all due respect, and appreciation for your hard work, but how are we even supposed to weigh this information when deciding whether to buy or not? Will there be a note on each release now showing how much free labor every dev put into it? I'm being a bit hyperbolic but still....

I personally find it borderline exploitative that any devs are working even a minute without pay. I didn't like it with the GWE remaster and I don't like it here either. Maybe that's just how the industry works but it isn't right and kinda just makes me not want to play at all anymore.

 

From what I read, it is clearly unpaid voluntary work, it's not being *asked* of them by anyone (with power to make them do it) other than their own free will. It's not that they're not being paid period.

At the same time, the fact that it is released as an exclusive part of a TSG pack, and that because of this as DTG said they cannot simply appropriate it to update older 403s for example, it does kinda intrinsically tie the work done to some of the value of the pack that must be gotten to access this, and is paid. Otherwise they'd need to confirm if they'd be willing to let their voluntary upgrades propagate to DTG stock only behind proper crediting.

100% understandable if they wouldn't, it's their work afterall and they decide, but then it's not as much free work as it is "work we decided to do because we felt it would improve the content, that wasn't asked of us, but as a result does make the offer of the content now more compelling (and to the end user is indeed still behind the paywall)".

 

Its not exploitative if its voluntary lol. I made the decision myself and nobody told me to do so.

 

You are not the only developer who voiced similar thoughts and I believe your feelings.

But then my question is why we as customers are paying rather high prices for content, when the developers who did the work don't actually get paid?

 

I think you kinda misunderstand the text i wrote. I get paid for the features they asked me to do, i was just ranting a bit because it just feels like the community is in an "moving the goalpost" mode as of now, which is demotivating as hell from my standpoint and makes me rethink about how much voluntary bonus work i wanna do just because I want authentic trains. If the scope would have included all those extra features the route would be more expensive because more hours would have to be paid. Its a privilege to do this without "needing the money".

 

Just so know i would have happily paid an extra £10 if ment getting a new 442 .

 

Then again, the 442 is not the main act of this DLC. An important side dish, especially scenery wise, but not more important than that.

The route itself, the improved 403 and the Münex (which I will probably use with the expert 101) are more than enough for me to justify parting with €36.

 

Yeah that doesn't make sense, the original 101 is like 5 years old? Not sure why that loco is not allowed to be upgraded when countless other stock has received the same treatment.

The changes to the ICE 3 in this route are a very welcome addition so not sure why DTG are being stingy with the 101 and not letting the devs work on it.

Route looks pretty good overall from what I've seen however.

 

I don't think anyone threw anything at you specifically, and tbh all the comments I have read about the 403 are positive ones.
So thanks for your work.

Now, I think you should understand that if we ask why the normal 101 was not upgraded there were probably several answers that could be given. The one that Lukas provided was that it would devalue the original 101 DLC. When I heard that the first thing that I thought was that it does not make sense at all, because the 403 is also being upgraded and by the same rule it would devalue the original 403, and so on ... content is being upgraded all over the place in different DLCs. Just doesn't make any sense.

Instead, Lukas could have said something like "look, with a target of selling this DLC at 36€ a developer can usually only include 1 new train. The changes needed for the Munex with the cab car pretty much cover that, but then we did extensive work to the 403 well beyond what a normal upgrade to TSW6 standards would be. We think many people will own the Expert 101 DLC that will substitute the normal 101, so of all the available options, we decided that we would leave the normal 101 as is so we could focus on all the other stuff I just mentioned".

If he had said that, I would clearly understand what happened and even mostly could agree with it. But it is not what he said.

Now, going to the bigger picture ... None of this is anywhere in the product description in the Steam page, so nothing a "normal" buyer will see. DTG is constantly increasing the number of features to be expected in the DLCs with each iteration of TSW, so yeah, a "normal" user would expect to see suspension in a 101 included in a TSW6 DLC and, to be clear, this has nothing to do with TSG. It is just what DTG advertises in general for all their TSW6 products.

 

We are not moving the goalpost, at least not with the TSW6 standard features. DTG put it there, not any of us.

 

This is my whole concern with the arrangement.

It was a little easier to justify with GWE remaster or WSR remaster because they weren't monetized- it's easier for me as a customer to be like, "clearly this is somebody's passion project". I think the circumstances are a little different here.

I hesitated even posting about it because people would think I'm being ungrateful, when it's actually quite the opposite! I absolutely believe the individual devs when they say they're doing extra work out of passion and not because it's expected, but burnout is still real even you volunteer, and the fact that they felt the need to publicly vent about the situation tells me that not everything is 100% great.

DTG isn't a charity, and neither are TSG for that matter. I still argue it's a VERY slippery slope to have employees doing off-the-clock work at a for-profit enterprise. And, just to clarify, reiterate, etc, none of my misgivings are directed at any individual developer- I'm speaking squarely to the management here.

If a given DLC can't be developed to the current TSW standard, and at the standard pricing without relying on volunteer labor...maybe it just shouldn't be made at this time? Or the price should be higher to reflect the work that's been put into it?

 

I think the developers made it clear, it could be done at the standard pricing with the current TSW standard, with such caveats of borrowing first party rolling stock which in turn they cannot directly compete against.

Also this is still a DLC that was born not due to TSGs desire but as the result of work of a dedicated community member. TSG agreed to give their name to get it over the line and published on official stores. Had that not happened, we might have been looking at a free route with 100% reused stock and no feature upgrades, that would be available only as a mod for PC. IF it ever got to be released without first/third party help. It feels to me the editor experience can still not lead to a complete route to be developed without needing DTG to help, maybe intentionally.

Personally, I will not be picking it up, but not due to the lack of perceived quality, more so due to the fact that its a route that doesnt bring anything wow, an extra 20km/h speed limit and a backported expert cabcar that cannot be used for IC formations in future layers does not sell it to me. Its more of a filler content piece, that could have been an average but not exceptional basegame route for TSW Next, had DTG taken the publishing instead of TSG.

I really wonder though, does TSG want to give their name for future routes or any kind of add-ons that are not developed by their core people. The community is not gonna be happy, when they expect in house TSG quality for all TSG products and that is not what they get. To me it feels like TSG would need to be treated as a publisher of sorts, content could be developed by Maik (whose team as far as I understand is the owner of the TSG name, but they only really did rolling stock), Lukas and Ed, or anyone they choose to give their name to.

 

Even as it stands I wouldn’t pay £30 for this. And, while not a direct comparison just wishlisted the next SimRail route extension which comes out next week, the Lodz North Region. 140 route miles including single track and scenic sections, far more interesting than what will amount to a very quick 300 km/h blast on this route. And hopefully at the same pocket friendly £10.99 as the previous SR routes. DTG are proving themselves out of the market, if not careful.

 

Can’t grumble at £10.99. That’s amazing.

 

That’s to be confirmed but even if a few £’s more, still excellent value. Particularly as that includes both SP driving and MP driving/signaller.

 

Is there a full 24 hour timetable in single player yet?

 

Unfortunately no, the one drawback. But you can run each scenario at any time of day you like and with whatever train set you wish.

 

I would prefer the timetable mode TSW has. And the variety frankly.

 

Most people will be very grateful for the work you put in.

I would ignore those that seem to be searching for things to get annoyed at. It's often the same posters.

I am a paid musician, sometimes I do work for free, of my own choice, I don't feel exploited. It's my own decision.

I wasn't sure if I was interested in this route, certainly not yet but it looks good and seemed to run smoothly.

 

Why would you be disappointed in a free layer? Would you prefer less AI-trains on the route?
The route is not coming with the 442, it just layers from Köln-Aachen.
I don't think any trains ever got updates just for a layer on a different route? So why are people expecting that here? Köln-Aachen got the free lighting upgrade to ToD4, so the 442 also uses the same ToD as the new route.

So there were more issues with Dresden-Leipzig, where the old 1442 layers, where it looks really bad, due to different ToD.

A big thank you to all the devs, who with their passion go the extra step, so we can have a better game.

 

No, I’d prefer the trains featured in routes to be in the realm of current standards. Not over half a decade old and/or significantly behind the existing quality & feature curve.

Of course on one hand it is indeed absolutely true that many layered trains aren’t updated to the same standard as the DLC that features them, but on the other hand they often aren’t massively behind that level. We’ve also seen that layered trains can indeed have their consist altered to be accurate on that account. Ultimately either the KWG or DRA/L could have been used here.

I don’t really think it’s any surprise that DLC sales have underperformed this year, there’s been a marked drop in the variation & quality of rolling stock. Even with this route it turns out that the one set of stock that has seen the most improvement has actually been done on donated dev time, so we can’t even expect that level of quality at a point where DLC is more expensive than it’s ever been.

Of course you’re free to be happy about that, but I’d question for what length of time this development path is sustainable, before it becomes fiscally pointless.

I’m not going to celebrate a DLC, that without free labour would be made up primarily of a roster of TSW2 & in the case of the 101, TSW2020 stock. This developer may not have set that pattern but it’s one that’s now solidly formed to not only use repeat stock, but not to include a baseline feature set.

 

I'm glad to see the developers finally snap back at the people snapping at them.

They give you clarity and then some people argue back at them.

And they wonder why there isn't much interaction from them here.

If you think you can do better there is a public editor....have at it.

 

I don’t agree with this at all! Of course you are free to celebrate whatever you want, but penalising a DLC for being a passion project is beyond me. I think a lot of what you are saying about slow sales and the state of the game is fair and right, however, I think it is absolutely unfair to criticise this DLC for including old stock, especially as this stock does not even represent what this DLC stands for.

And as the game is the game it is we absolutely must celebrate these kind of DLCs, as, without them, we would have even less of a feature set!