its such a sucky feeling when you have a favorite kind or type of train being made in TSW but said train for the game is developed by developer that you wouldn't be willing to support at all due to their poor practices and reputation. what do you even do in this situation? dont buy their product at all/vote with your wallet despite the desire for the traction that I want?
Voting with your wallet only prevents you having the product, the developer will not notice that you haven’t bought it. If it’s a train or route you want just buy it but if it’s riddled with bugs or not up to your standards then perhaps don’t buy it. You can’t send a message by not buying stuff though. You can only have it or not have it yourself. That’s worth remembering. I’d buy anything by any developer as long as I got enjoyment out of it. I do make sure I know what I’m buying beforehand though especially if it’s by a developer who I’ve had issues with before. I wait for other people’s feedback and watch some streams or videos to see what the issues are and then weigh it up. It can disappointing if a train (or route) you love is badly made.
If the price rises indicated in another thread are a reality, I won't be buying much at all - even the good stuff - unless in a deep sale. It looks like the price of a standard route DLC with one train is rising from £29.99 to £32.99. Funny, I didn't know inflation was currently 10%. And for those sort of prices, they need to make sure everything including from the less renowned developers is top notch.
to me higher prices can be counter productive less people will buy it and just wait until it is on sale a somewhat lower price might add more people who will buy it at release
as an example for the top of my head. Rivet. Lot of their products are still filled with bugs that are still not fixed til this very day. And often their routes are at quite poor and inconsistent quality. Latter example being that some trains may have onboard announcements and some dont and they seem to never listen to feedback from players at all. However, one of the DLC they made, the Class 171 and 377 have gotten my attention since the ECW is my local line and me being interested in electrostars. So i caved and got the DLC despite the poor quality (especially on the 377/3 where there are texture glitches yet they still arent fixed to this very day.) and I even watched reviews of it beforehand knowing what to expect. I basically felt like if i want that something i had no choice but to support Rivet because they made something I am interested in.
thats what I often do. In such a scenario, no matter what developer is it, i will wait until a sale is on a specific DLC that i wanted before getting it. then how else can we send a message to a developer that their product is filled with bugs as a paying customer? I gave them my money, they could've not listen to the playerbase and left the route at a terrible state with not a single bug being fixed. Yea i am frustrated alright but coming on to forums or the "feedback" website by DTG isnt going to change anything by just sending 1 message...
what you’re describing is simply capitalism. said businesses put out content that you don’t like, but enough people pay their money for it that it’s more profitable for them to continue making new content than repairing old stuff. in an ideal world, routes would release with very few problems, but unfortunately whatever is going to make the most money is what will ultimately happen because at the end of the day that’s the most important thing when third parties pick what content to make; of course they care a lot about the little details, but overall profit is the aim and one voice doesn’t change that. those of us on the forums are a vocal minority and so no matter how much we complain and demand answers, sales numbers determine the response
I think you did all you can already. You just let them know you are not happy with the current state of the DLC, and that you wouldn't have bought it as it is if it wasn't your local route. I think you can't be more clear than that. Now you have to trust that others will also do their part and complain in the feedback thread, but that is out of your control.
so then even if thats the case in terms of the sales numbers doing the talking, is 1 person not buying a product going to do much of a difference in developers improving their quality of product and maybe lesser bugs in their releases? or do i just give up and throw my money at them anyway not matter how bad the product is and said product being my favorite/desirable route/train and giving them the message of "hey good job at giving me a product thats filled with bugs, heres my money!"
you should always decide for yourself whether you want to buy a route/loco. if i think it’s good enough, but you don’t, that’s fine. my point however is that ‘voting with your wallet’ will benefit you and you only. you’ll save £30 on something you may consider sub-par, but it won’t affect the future projects of dtg/any third party. you shouldn’t throw your money at any old slop, but for every person who does that, there will be several people who will. it’s not ideal for any of us but as the players that’s how the hierarchy works, in many walks of life
Active feedback as opposed to passive. Don't just not buy it, but also tell them directly by email or whatever that you're not buying it and why, politely and professionally. That makes your message visible as opposed to invisible.
I understand how you feel; after all, you are paying good money for the product. I think it is perfectly appropriate to keep voicing your concerns here. Also, with the Steam version, you do have the option to post a review. Unfortunately, the reviews get reset whenever the annual edition changes, which makes me feel sorry for new users. I can certainly understand the desire to buy the game when a new route is released. With the Steam version, if the game hinders actual gameplay, I think the best approach is to buy it, test it briefly, and then apply for a refund—provided you clearly state the reasons before you’ve put too many hours into it. I have already discussed the issue of the fatal accidents on the WCMLS route in another thread. Having to collide with over 100 people every time I play is extremely unpleasant, and I am forced to conclude that the manufacturer condones this situation.
However the slight issue with that, is if you do too many refunds in a row Steam will flag your account and warn you that you are abusing the system…
This is how I feel about HIS and the Southern Pacific GP35. I want Southern Pacific in TSW, but not a terrible (assuming) DTM model.... Maybe Adam can whip up something better in the future.....
and this is why train sim reviewers (not the ambassadors because they are all paid not to criticise the product) are so important to still have. Even if they review cant change how future developer's product is like. At least it can still make people aware rather or not to spend money on such a bad quality product. i have never touch any US add ons and i still feel bad how the US rarely gets any add ons nowadays...
yeah... this is exactly how I feel about the santa fe pack and about the GP60M (or should I call it reskinned C40-8W) that's why I will only buy tadami line, class 70 and the bergen line (and obviously won't be buying the southern pacific route)
Yeah, think It's a bit too much to say ambassadors are paid not to criticise, all they're given are the keys for showing it to us, and from watching a few of them they do criticise the product. They're just not about to rant for half an hour Perhaps you can say you don't trust their opinion on the value of a DLC as they get it for free, but I wouldn't trust that to any other individual, ambassador or not, as in the end it is an entirely personal decision if something is worth the price....
Yeah they're definitely not paid for opinions or anything along those lines. But I also think it's fair to be aware that even such little thing like "all DLCs free" will contribute to some form of bias. Even if that bias may be subconscious, it would be naive to think that it won't be there.
I never really get this criticism of the official ambassadors... If you don't like the connection between them and DTG, why not just go to a reviewer who has no connections at all? Everyone is completely free to feel how they want about it, I'm just putting my personal feelings across. For me personally I've never felt any of the ambassadors brown nosed DTG or lacked criticism, The British Ace, TinTin & RichyRail are all pretty honest about their feelings, good and bad (from my own observations). In terms of the having conflicting feelings about a product you want developed by someone you didn't want to, on one side I completely get it, particularly with Rivet. WCMLS left such a bad feeling with me I thought things were going to continuosly head south. But I will come to there defence to some extent now and say that massive improvements have happened... Don't get me wrong it took some really furious feedback, but eventually the feedback did sink in and a change in direction with Rivet has happened and quite noticeably. So I have to respect the fact a positive change in direction is happening... Since Riveria Line and some of the DLC from the last year I'm fairly impressed with the dramatic change in Rivets contracted work for DTG. I'm not going to lie there are a few niggles that need ironing out still, but things have changed for the better. I'd say just the off chance, if Rivet is your concern, give them a chance and get the content you're on about if it is post-Riveria. If it still doesn't meet your standards or expectations than give them a miss in future, but I would say just give them one more chance as it might be worth it. I'm one of the most nit picky people about and I'm going to get the Wharfdale & Airedale network on general release on the 15th along with the 333 and will see if any further improvements since Riveria are noteable. So yeah, if it is Rivet your worried about give them one more chance when it comes to the more modern stuff.
At least where I live, the value of any DLC that is given to you for free is considered an income and has to be included to calculate your earnings tax. Saying that ambassadors will only say good things about DTG because they get free DLC is excessive, but considering that the free stuff has no effect is also not realistic.
I think Rivet has lost most if not all of my patience with them by now. And in which case is why I am so much hesitant on getting the welsh route with the 150 and 153 in it. As much as how i am a huge fan of the sprinters. And until Wharfdale & Airedale is officially out, it will only be a matter of time before one can or cant tell is the route done by Rivet but sold as a DTG product. Because this has happened more than 2 times now and its getting annoying. Me getting routes that are developed by them (includings onee that are listed as made by "DTG") is me buying them out of obligation or that i think i cant live without them.
As I say anything pre-Riveria has questionable quality issues (although the Class 170 pack was quite good). Cardiff City Network probably wasn't their finest hour, and still isn't in terms of the route itself. But in terms of the Class 150 & 153, they aren't to shoddy after several updates. The Class 153 is probably the best of the two... The only alternative suggestion I could give would be to buy CCN for it's layering options and being able to use the 150/153 on a few select routes. But each to their own, what works for me might not work for others. I revisited CCN the other week and I still couldn't get into it, which is a great shame because the JT Class 142 is lovely. But the scenery and stations are still a bit 'off' to me.
Yeah, I think I understand how you feel. I’d be VERY disappointed if Rivet Games or DtG started working on the Sheerness Line or any new Southeastern route for TSW (though the promise of train guards and real-time weather in TSW7 has made me a little less hostile toward DtG). In fact, after seeing the Medway Valley DLC, I’d love for the guys at Firefly Simulations to make all the TSW DLCs And this isn’t due to any personal animosity (personally, Matt seems to me to be an incredibly friendly, nice and warm person), but simply because products from Rivet Games or DtG are almost always disappointing to one degree or another, whereas a product from Firefly Simulations, even after five months of intense play, still blows me away and continues to positively surprise me. I lost faith in the “invisible hand of the market” and in the effectiveness of “voting with your wallet” a long time ago. Capitalism has completely spiraled out of control, and the “invisible hand of the market”—which is supposed to give customers some influence over product quality—is nothing more than a fairy tale for children. The best example is Microsoft, which probably has the most dissatisfied customers in the world and yet remains dominant in the industry.
The thing is, you can in fact see the hand of the market in action, opening and closing any time a bought and paid for politician's mouth is moving.
Put JustTrains on this list too. Because I often find myself really enjoying their routes as I sometimes revisit them from time to time for a quick kick to please myself to run a train or too. I hope to pick up their new route eventually, its just a matter of time. I was really hoping they could remake York to Newcastle route with the IC HST and IC225 (much like in TSC). But seeing as ATS is doing London to Peterbrough and them having to done a class 90 already... (also hearing that it was at an unplaybale state when it was first released, thanks DTG) i have my worries... and ATS is one of other developer that outside of TSC, I dont really want to support along with Rivet. If it weren't because TSW5 only gave us Euston to Milton Keynes (apparently a route also done by Rivet but advertised as a DTG product), I would've still stayed on TSW and get their Class 90. But only time will tell as to how long my patience is going to crave and get their class 90
I've never said that. I've only said that no ambassador is getting 'paid to not criticism a product'. It's factually wrong. That was my point
I have asked the very specific question in the Q&A for the stream, as regards both the route and the two EMU’s. Let’s see if DTG are prepared to answer it. The biggest issue remains the short length and that much of that distance is either at 15 or 20 MPH or calling at stations less than a mile apart. You never really get going. I mean the 153 is actually quite nice to drive, as testified by giving it a run on the Birmingham to Wolverhampton section of the B2C route. The 150 is okay ish too better than the OG WCL one. If the route had at least gone to Barry Island, Pontypridd and Caerphilly or even better given the full Rhymney or Treherbert line then my view of the DLC would be much more positive and I would have cut a bit more slack for the butchery off Cardiff Central station.
I'd honestly disagree, companies do review copies basically for advertising, usually they do not go out of their way to pay reviewers that they know will trash the product. And often if a reviewer does go a bit harder than expected on it they don't get review copies going forward for a extended period of time, meaning they can't get their reviews out as early, and thus get less traffic. It's the same with movie reviewers, they get early access screenings, which again, can be denied if they get ticked off by them. Not to mention that the mere fact they're not paying for the products can itself soften peoples opinions on it. It's weird that it's such a controversial position on the forums, other spaces I've been on it's been accepted for years you need to take professional reviewers and YouTubers with a grain of salt. There isn't really a way of doing early access copies without also raising a lot of ethical questions on the opinions of the reviewers. You don't even have to consciously alter your opinion, you opinions can be altered subconsciously too by this, so you can't just hand-wave away and say "I won't let it influence me". Only way you can really counter it is just by not taking the freebies and insider access in the first place. I would argue they're certainly paid to go softer on a product, which isn't that far away from the "Paid to not criticize it" line that started this.
Used to see that years ago with game reviews in magazines. PC Gamer or PC Format. 90%+ reviews on complete tat, which said magazine would a few months later put the inevitable patch on the cover disc. By which point you might just have figured out the config.sys and autoexec.bat mini game to get the thing actually running!
No ambassador is paid a salary or wage in dollars, pounds, yen or zenny, nor is employed by dovetail games. fixed it for you. While there are a few ambassadors whos oppinions i value and trust, there is an argument to be made that a free DLC key is still a form of payment, that the ambassador can accept or decline, but a form of payment none the less
Driv3rgate comes to mind, when the publisher exclusively gave a single magazine review code on the proviso that the horrendously buggy to the point of being virtually unplayable game got a perfectly positive review. Every other publication went out and bought copies and published their reviews panning the game a week after launch, but the damage was done.
Frontier First Encounters for me. It was an absolute steaming pile that even went to the heaxadump code running across the top of the screen when it crashed after five minutes. Even the patch never cured it, which is why I was ever after sceptical of anything from Braben and I only bought Elite Dangerous some years after release.
imo games should work as advertised, if theyre broken they should be patched and if theyre reviewed should be done so honestly. its not a matter of "dont like it dont buy it" - for better or worse i am in this TSW ecosystem now, and in 2026 'voting with your wallet' doesnt mean anything when there are swaths of people who will continue to gobble up the good with the bad and handwave the bad away. when people start siding with corporations that are actively showing you by their own actions and inactions they truely dont care, we have failed - behold the field Dovetail use to grow their "give a Fs" for it is barren and has been salted.
Just the fact they are called "ambassadors" immediately gives the impression that they are expected not to criticize too much, in my opinion.
