There’s a few good points above, I do think it’s silly that TSW has no actual base content, you always need to buy a bundle or route etc, which always ends up abandoned & then incompatible with something or other. As it stands for solving issues now though, we really should be seeing widely used layers included with the core. There’s really no need for so many 66’s/ACS-64/Dosto etc & I doubt they haven’t made their money back & then some from those models. It’s bad enough you go through the lists of various loco copies which may or may not be better or worse, but then we STILL have the ridiculous bug that duplicates the list. What annoys me (perhaps not as much as the above bug) is that when asked if they’d just use 1 master loco for these common layers, it’s the same answer of it would break previous layers. Other than the fact that the answer implies DTG assumes they’re immune, to the idea of they might have to do some work to make their product better, they could still be implementing that idea going forwards, but alas I see tens of class 66’s ahead of us still. For all the talk of optimisation Matt partakes in, this stock duplication is a massive black hole that proves they can’t go deep enough into TSW’s code to really fix the big gremlins. And just to reiterate, it’s so, so stupid that the UI duplicating loco selections is still a problem. I don’t get why DTG is obsessed with changing the menu every year (to an unnecessary extent) but miraculously avoid sorting out the problems with it.
For me personally, TSW, TSW2020 and TSW2 where in the same league. With TSW3 and the new lighting it looked like a different game and the old and new lighting are not really that compatible. I think the plan for cutting backwards compatibility after TSW2020 was not a good plan, but it depends on the way they wanted to go forward. If the plan was to port over the old trains to TSW2 but not being able to play the old routes on TSW2 anymore, it would be fine for me. But if they just wanted to start as barebone as the first TSW routes, it would have been a bad idea.
Good discussion here. Matt has said in the past that they’re considering moving some things into the core. I really hope they clean up the game and sort out the multiple versions of locos, etc. As for TSW 1, TSW 2020 content and all that old stuff still being on sale, I think it’s a joke. I don’t even play any of it anymore because it’s so outdated. I agree with everyone saying that something needs to be done with the older content. Either make it free or give it a serious update.
It seems that rather than keeping older content relevant with periodic updates, they want the big headline of a remaster. Similar to why we get a new TSW every year?
TSW does have kind of have core content with the training centre and the example locos/units there. I wonder how many copies would shift if they put it out as a standalone "TSW(insert number) light" or somesuch for £10-15 with the tutorials for the locos, some scenarios, a little timetable and some freight hauler content? Put a few more stations on each loop, spawn in some passengers, put some billboards, advertising hoardings, posters etc around the place promoting DLC routes. I know it might sound a bit cash-in like, but some people might pick it up just to have a look for a tenner. You can even use the livery designer to create your own unique look for the plain white locos there. Scenario Planner support. Might be a sizeable undertaking right now, but could reap some rewards in the longer term.
I mean I don't necessarily hate the remaster approach. That is accomplishing the goal of bringing some older content closer to modern standards. I also understand there are marketing reasons for the remasters as well as the annual releases. I just wish there was some more consistency to the whole process as to which routes are remastered when, and what standard the remasters will be brought up to. Someone mentioned MSB above, and that seems like it would be a real challenge to bring it up to TSW7 standards without charging a decent amount for the work, which brings its own criticism from some parts of the community. Then there are routes like Munich-Augsburg, that have never really worked right and probably would have to be completely rebuilt from scratch. Maybe some kind of triage system to assign remaster priority for pre-TSW3 DLC? Maybe weight content that frequently layers in newer DLC more heavily? It's a hard problem but I think it's something they really need to address.
Same, but I am not sure any other game could justify having the original on Unreal Engine 4.26 and the remaster on Unreal Engine 4.26 and call that a remaster with a straight face. Maybe they could save the remasters for when there is no horse left here.
Lol that's fair enough! For me, it's less about the graphics (at least for TSW3 and forward routes with the newer TOD), and more about the new features like suspension, announcements, and now live weather.
As I've just discovered, in a way, it's normal for Train Sim World as well: It's certainly not a steep drop in price, but the standard editions of previous games do seem to be getting progressively cheaper as they age. I can't find the Deluxe versions, and the DLC is not discounted at all, but I thought it would be interesting.
On console you can only buy the latest version of the game. Let's take TSW3 now for example, on Steam you pay 20 Pounds for the whole game, which seems to be a fair price, however, on the Xbox store only Kassel - Wurzburg costs you already 30 Pounds.
There isn't a huge decrease in value for older TSW content though. Besides a lot of it being updated (like GWE, Sand Patch, WSR, soon NTP, etc) even the unupdated stuff isn't "bad." It's not like a car that is rusted out and undrivable. Some have less "cool features" but that's like buying a classic car that doesn't have dashboard GPS and satellite radio. It doesn't make the car itself bad. Older cars aren't super cheap because they're "old" they're cheaper because they are often in bad condition. I don't think you can claim that of much of TSW content. I'd say it's not an age thing, it's a case by case basis for each DLC. Keeping them at the price they were at release would be a good compromise. They aren't getting more expensive, but they also aren't treated like LOVE. There's a far larger difference in quality between developer rather than over time. Sand Patch for example is still one of the best routes out there, despite it being one of the oldest...but you have to like US freight to appreciate it. A German passenger fan isn't going to like it, but that doesn't mean it's a "bad" route or needs to be discounted as less valuable.
To be honest, they are pretty up front with their remasters. They usually just bring them up to the current standard of lighting and features. Again, it's like an old car. How much work do people expect for "free"? A touch up here, some new tires there for zero dollars? That's actually pretty generous. Swapping the engine out? Rebuilding the chassis? Then you're no longer talking about a few small fixes... that's an overhaul which means costly.
That's an interesting perspective. I'm strongly in favour of DTG heavily discounting older, non-remastered DLC as it lacks modern features and it's graphically less appealing, but I take your point. For me, I'm not buying it without a big discount, but if others are still willing to pay full price then there's maybe little incentive for DTG to lower the RRP.
I mean... they DO discount them a lot in sales all the time. The thinking is that most "long term" players already have them, so the target is younger/newer players who are just joining. What you are doing is a) showing the DLC still have value (which they do.) It's not like an older version of Civilization that is "complete" and not releasing any more content. Old DLC is still updated to use the current TSW version every year. and b) still managing to nab those impatient people who "just can't wait" for a sale. Which if we're honest is a lot of people these days. Let's be fair here there are a lot of people out there with more cash than patience and willing to shell out for something they could wait a few weeks for much cheaper. Whole industries exist just to cater to that specific demographic. =-) I think that's fair. If you want to wait there's quite common sales of older content. If you can't wait, then pay full price for a DLC that is just as usable as it was when it was released.
On some platforms that's true, but not if you're on XBOX like I am.... Very few sales, unfortunately, and even fewer deep discounts on old DLC. During a conversation with the DTG community team I did suggest that in the absence of sales on XBOX they might at least want to consider permanent reductions to the price of older DLC but maybe that was optimistic!
The console stores leave a lot to be desired. I kinda gave up on those for the most part and just play what I have already downloaded. For TSW in particular I just stick to PC.
here’s a truth that has to be faced: the best platform for playing TSW is PC (steam) and the worst is consoles (in every respect, especially when it comes to DLC sales)
Sand Patch Grade is a bad example because not only was it a "balls to the walls" release where Dovetail was testing what works and what doesn't but it also got updates early in it's lifespan including new physics for the locomotives. It was also remastered before it's console release. I was talking more about routes that are almost forgotten like the Rapid Transit or Rhein-Ruhr Osten. Having a limited selection of routes that are well maintained just feels like a much better business model. Like imagine if DTG only had 9 or 12 first-party routes across their 3 countries that would all be kept up to spec.
Given that there are so many DLC out there now and more all the time, I think it's the EXCEPTION that isn't "up to spec" rather than the rule, and they are getting updated all the time.. I think people forget just how much work was done to keep so many DLC up to date. It bears mentioning because the negative narrative is very one sided and often skips the other half of the story. Just think of all the remastered routes from the early days already....Great Western, Kassel, East Coastway, West Somerset, Isle of WIght, Sand Patch, Southeast HIgh Speed, Dresden, London Commuter, etc. Then there's some totally rebuilt like NEC, LIRR, IOW, etc. NTP is already announced for soon. If there's a handful of ones they haven't gotten to yet, it's a bit unfair to point out only that handful and then ignore the majority. Apart from Rapid Transit... very few have been "ignored" from the early days. MSB and RSN are still pretty good and haven't had much request for a remaster. Tees Valley will probably get an update when the ECML reaches it, but generally just needs better lighting. Oakville could use some debugging on some of the scenarios and is lacking its planned passenger element (but well.. licensing issues...) but other than that is perfectly fine. Everything else has been upgraded or is in progress from 2018-2020. From there, Clinchfield could use the NTP/Tees Valley lighting treatment. But then you're really up to TSW 3 around 2022 and I still thiank that's new enough it doesn't need an update. So if you're going to get upset about "Rapid Transit" being one of the few that haven't been polished yet....then focus on that. Make that your thing. It's not really fair to say that all the old content is dated and in a bad state because less than a half dozen are old and waiting remasters on mostly lighting and things that weren't even features when they were released (like station announcements.) It's like saying a classic car isn't "complete" if it doesn't have GPS and wireless in the dash.
Ok. Sorry about that. I just miss the early days of TSW where every route was bringing something very new to the table. For example the move from S-bahn on Rapid Transit to proper German railway on RSN. MSB also managed to feel very different due to having a different profile. RRO also had a novely of having two paths. You could say the same thing about UK stuff. Not sure about US but it's probably just as valid. After that, things got increasingly muddier with some bright exceptions like Koln-Aachen that gave us the ICE3. Everything just started to feel very similar to something that already exists. That's why I think a smaller, more curated set of routes would work better.
Gotta push back a little on this in a couple of ways. Defining "modern standard" is a little tricky, but If we're looking at just pre-TSW3 route DLC, it's probably closer to 50/50, rather than a few exceptions: Yes Updated: GWE West Somerset East Coastway SKA SEHS (with extension) Cathcart Not updated: NEC New York (removed from sale) RSN MSB TVL Penninsula Corridor (probably never happening due to expired license) RRO Oakville HRR HMA LGV Mediterranee Clinchfield Pending/Debatable: Sandpatch (partially ugraded iirc) LIRR (superseded by LIRR 2.0, got new lighting but not suspension on the trains included in the original release) Bakerloo (got a new timetable but not a full remaster iirc) IOW (superseded by Island Line 2022, so newer but not fully modern) NTP (coming in TSW7) Arosalinie (got a new timetable, can't remember about lighting) HHL (got a new timetable but not lighting, right?) I didn't have time to go through them, but I'd imagine a similar mix on the loco DLC. But the bigger issue, imo, is that these distinctions mean almost nothing to new players- all they see is it's available for purchase for TSW7, so they inevitably will compare it to the current standard and find it lacking many or all of those features. Veteran players have mostly already made up their minds about the older stuff and have purchased them (or not). So, that kinda leaves us back at square one, doesn't it? A hodgepodge of different standards that are confusing even for longtime players, and a bloated mess of a menu when trying to do something as basic as picking the train you want to use. We've all provided a bunch of potential solutions and now it's on DTG to sort it out.
But it's entirely subjective. There is no "standard" no, for game OR PLAYERS. What one person doesn't like aesthetically or theme based, another person does. I don't like the older lighting on TVL or NTP or CRR... but other people swear by it and DON'T want it changed. I don't see anything substantial to improve on RSN or MSB. They are fun and work fine as they are. Then again there's "newer" stuff that isn't as good as older stuff.... from MY perspective. But that's just it, it's MY perspective as one gamer. I can't say those are "bad" DLC just because I don't prefer them. Saying newer players will all prefer a certain style or theme is missing the point that it's hugely a personal perspective and opinion. Work has been done to introduce the newer features in. That's fact. Therefore (to get this back on track a bit) I don't think older DLC are "inferior" to newer stuff as a whole. It's very much a case by case basis and up ultimately to the buyer. I find Sand Patch or MSB/RSN are still worth every penny at full price, while some newer stuff I wouldn't even pick up on sale because it's either lacking in value or doesn't appeal to me. My point is we can't just broad-brush the DLC as "older" or "newer" and assume it's "bad" or "good" based on age. There has always been better and worse content out there.
Sure, the idea of a standard is a bit subjective (especially the lighting), but there are clear divisions on some other things, right? A train either has suspension, or doesn't. Same with announcements, bridge/tunnel reverb, etc. If a new player's first experience with TSW is, for example, Nurnburg-Wurzburg, with all the bells and whistles, and they're like, "oh, this RSN route looks fun, let me check it out", and then they buy it (at full price), load it up, and the stations are dead silent, and the trains have no announcements and glide uncannily smoothly across the tracks- you don't think that would be jarring, to say the least? I sure do. And my overall point is players like us who've been around a long time understand why older content doesn't have those features, but it's completely different for newer players and could totally turn off people who might otherwise become long-term customers. That doesn't seem good for the long-term health of the franchise imo.
One word from me... Reverb. The older routes with plentiful bridges and tunnels all need it. And the Czech route builders have also demonstrated you can do bridge rumble going across structures too. What's the bet none of the three new routes have that feature - it needs to be standard on all routes going forward.
Looks like tomorrow is the last day for the pre order discount on Xbox for the Deluxe and Ultimate editions.
Even among these quality varies, SKA got a awful remaster that just changed the lighting, honestly think it's worse they did that than do nothing at all from what I saw, Cathcart got similar lighting changes and not much more. SEHS highlights another problem with this idea of just labeling a route as "Remastered or not", SEHS was a TSW3 launch route, it's not a spring chicken anymore either. GWR actually got a major revamp prior, but that still needed further work after a few years as well. Really neither of these should count IMO, they're separate products, and IOW isn't the same product anyways due to it being in a different era.
That’s strange as I’m sure on Steam you can take the discount right up to the end of early access. So a chance to assess from real player feedback as to the worthwhile course of action.
I agree actually. Was just trying to be fair in the discussion, but you're right that the quality is all over the place.
