Train Sim World 7 - Discussion

So disappointing with the console stream, yet are we actually surprised now?

I've gotten to the point where this might be the first time I won't bother with the newest iteration from the start and instead have a break from this game. It's bad enough already that I avoid playing many routes and locos nowadays which I should love to enjoy because of blurry textures and performance.

What's most frustrating is the whole point of TSW was to be a game for both PC and console, right? Obviously, PC has much better hardware and have so much more capability which is fair enough for improved performance and graphics. But, it's the fact that as console players we now have to worry about whether a route will even struggle to work as expected.

The thing is though stuff like this has been said way back in some of the earliest roadmaps from the beginning of this year and much of my optimism has gone as there's really been no major improvement with exception of Medway Valley etc. It's bad enough that several older content is rife with blurry textures (how long would it take to sort out every individual DLC), yet brand-new content in the newest iteration of the game is still continuing with blurred textures and so on.

 

So I can play TSW7 with the limited set of early access content but I'm to expect the usual crashes, blurry textures and other bugs when I dare to install any other DLC I've previously bought for prior releases afterwards?

Sounds amazing.

 

That's what I'd assume.

 

As soon as Matt started talking about how blurry textures would be in the same place they are now, at the beginning of the stream, I knew we’d see them. I specifically asked Alex about them as German routes are the worst offenders & you can see in that thread how carefully he was basically saying no but yes. It’s really, really shameful behaviour.

This is why I’ve got such a problem with AAS too, back on the B2C route preview they were specifically asked about console problems and they stated “we’ve not had anything brought to our attention by beta testers”, then the route released and it was A) one of the worst blurring routes we’ve seen, B) an absolute crash fest on Xbox & C) full of other critical issues such as AI spads too.

We’re now back in this position where we wonder what the hell is going on, are the DTG community teams using beta testers as scape goats? Are the beta testers just trying not to raise too many issues for fear of losing their space in the program & thus facing the possibility of losing access to thousands of pounds worth of content? Are we just being routinely lied to?

Also this console stream, as others have said Matt looked completely embarrassed by the crashes, but it’s hard to feel bad for him because how on earth are we less than 24hours before launch & he’s only now just seeing things like that, along with bugs that have existed since TSW5 such as the screen view mode.

DTG’s process is broken, the management pipeline is broken & the community managers are just untrustworthy since they either speak in marketing riddles or straight up lie.

The whole structure needs cleaning up & reshaping.

 

The reaction to legitimate complaints from PC players (not all, but a lot on Facebook) kind of makes me want DTG to leave console, focus on PC and charge double the price to make up for loss of sales...

 

Would you pay £70 for a route?

 

a disgrace, an utter shambles from top to bottom, but ultimately not a surprise. that’s £58 i won’t get back because of microsoft’s strange refund policy. shame that’s probably the last time we see console content pre-release, let alone a dedicated separate stream. thank you so much to dtg for all the lies, false promises and overhyped, underbaked changes. different year, same dross. why oh why have i fallen for the same trick again

 

I wouldn't no. I'm on PS5. Just tired of PC elitists just saying consoles should be abandoned etc. Sometimes I do hope that they get their wish and then DTG try to plug the financial hole by doubling the pc prices.

 

After watching the first hour of the stream I am just glad I'm not interested in any of the routes. Obviously got off to a terrible start and while the Leeds route looked good it doesn't really make up for that crash at the start.

Not been mentioned on the thread but did anyone catch what Matt said the passenger improvements actually are? They seemed the same as they always have been and I didn't really understand what Matt was advising they had improved.

 

great. 5 days of bliss before the game becomes a blurred mess.

 

You can cancel your pre order. Plus, MS are pretty decent in refunds as long as you've not played much.

 

Quite appalled and frustrated by all of this, though not at all surprised. The screenshot of that ICE4 says it all; why would anyone want to play or buy that? (Although it seems the UK route didn't perform as badly). They've been saying "We've been making good progress" etc for several months, and yet that German route is once again a blurry mess. Sick of this company's blatant lies.

 

Yeah I used to play TSW on Xbox, purely for the refunds. Eventually though I had to give it up as most things I was refunding for were just Xbox specific problems, never mind multiplatform issues.

 

I think the easy explanation is that yes, he was genuinely embarrassed, but there is no way these things were a genuine surprise. He certainly wasn't seeing the issues for the first time. So then why would they do the console stream anyway? Because it would raise more questions to avoid it than simply doing the stream anyway with the warts and problems and brushing them off with a "I'll have to make a note of that" or what have you. Just my opinion.

Not sure if you were even raising it as a serious thought, or a bit of sarcasm, so you'll have to excuse me if I missed any subtlety there.

 

I don't think DTG should abandon consoles, but I do think people forget that TSW existed for 4 years as a PC exclusive title and prior to that DTG developed stuff for TS Classic for over 10 years. DTG has not and is still not a studio that has extensive experience in console game development. The real problem is likely the fact that DLC are still just ported from PC to console in the final stages of development.

 

I think they were forced into doing a console stream after all the talk of TSW7 being about how brilliant the new features were going to be on PC, so people wanted to see how it'd run on console.

 

2 years. It was on xbox in 2018.

I'd understand if they had only just started on consoles, but it's been over 8 years now. 5 of them on gen 9

 

This is what I mean when I say DTGs process is broken. I don’t really understand how Matt P, the executive producer of TSW, is surprised to see that the screen view feature is broken. It was broken from the first day it released as a new TSW yearly title. He believed it was fixed, but there have been multiple reports over the years since. So how does the EP not check in on that?

Same goes for the crashing. Surely with all the console issues for the last couple of years, the person signing off on the content for release, is making sure the console version is stable?

I don’t have a good explanation for it. Maybe he did know what he was getting into, maybe not, but for his role I don’t think either case is acceptable, we should be depending on people like Matt, the person either close to or at the very end of the production line, to catch these issues.

Same goes for the repeated above ‘Matt has said they’re sorting blurry textures’ etc. He’s said it multiple times over a span of 2 years. You can go back to the roadmap stream prior to Medway Valley releasing and hear the man himself say “we have a fix and we plan to get it released next month”.

You can again look at the roadmap between JT’s Preston to Crewe & AAS’ MKC to Crewe releasing and see the exact words “we are confident we can release content without blurry textures”.

So we’ve got content not fit for release & statements that are categorically untrue being spoken, being OK’d by someone. It all needs tearing down, this current process for console development & community management is not working.

 

Apologies for saying this but if you preorder ANY game nowadays then you've only got yourself to blame if it turns out to be rubbish....especially when you know full well that it's incredibly difficult to get a refund on your purchase.

 

No it's not if you cancel before launch.

 

Tonight's stream has made it clear to me that the way to go with TSW7 is the free update and then grab anything else you want in the sales.

I don't know if Matt reduced all the settings to low, but the American route looks absolutely terrible and is made even worse by the choice of driving it under a washed-out white sky that removes all shadows and sense of scale (voluntarily to improve performance, I presume). The LOD / pop-in issue on the pointwork is abysmal and is something I haven't seen since certain TSC routes were affected by it 10+ years ago. Then we have the entire highway's worth of traffic ignoring the barriers and crossing the track as the train blasts through, with Matt just commenting "silly traffic" instead of acknowledging that it's something that definitely shouldn't happen in a sim that's been around for a decade and needs to be fixed.

At the end of the run he said "well we've survived without blurring", which to me just suggests that he doesn't have confidence in the product, that good performance is almost a surprise and that the game hasn't really been improved.

He's just fired up Airedale now and it looks the same, white sky and no shadows. And the opacity of the spawn menu needs to be increased, you have to strain your eyes to read the labels against the background. As a showcase for the game it would probably have been more beneficial not to do it because this is really not selling it, quite the opposite in fact.

JB

 

Makes sense to me. It's a real shame and I feel for the devs in a lot of ways. I don't know anything about where Matt is in the hierarchy, but I understand how things can be when you're beholden to a large company. You do things you don't want to do, and you say what you have to say. It's complicated.

That being said, I really wish they could break off from the yearly release cycle and take the time to do the overhauls that need to be done. There are reasons why they don't or cannot do that.

But people also don't have to buy it or support it either. I wouldn't. I still plan on grabbing the free version of the PC release, but if I were a console player I wouldn't be doing that after what I saw today. Even grabbing the free version is rewarding them and pumping up user metrics. They can just point at those numbers to say "See? People still love it!"

As a caveat to that, I am a console player when it comes to other games (PS5). My controller developed the infamous left stick drift their controllers are known for. Rather than buying a $75 replacement, I've simply put my console on the backburner for now. Maybe I'll get a third-party to replace my sticks for more reliable TSR or hall effect options. I'm certainly not going to reward Sony's shoddy craftsmanship by doing what most would and just buying another controller (which will inevitably break again at some point). Food for thought. There are lots of games to play.

Trains are fun, and I understand how most people wouldn't be willing to just drop one of their favorite hobbies like that, but it is always an option.

 

Welcome to TSW on console. We don't get all the layers, either.

 

i’m not sure it’s fair to make me the culprit here; i decided to believe what dtg have been saying over the last few weeks, and the preorder discount isn’t too bad so i took a shot on it. instead of focusing on and blaming the customers who’ve parted with their money and are now regretting it, let’s focus on dovetail who’ve shown again that they can’t and won’t change, because they’re completely in the wrong as far as i’m concerned

 

So, as console players, it's at least another version of TSW with the same issues as the last (blurry textures and video memory errors).

It gets to the point, but where do we go from here? Should DTG be completely transparent about if these fixes can ever be implemented realistically on Gen 9 consoles (obviously, this would have to be more than just new content because you can't forget about all the existing catalogue which is a priority) or whether it's just too much now and wait until Gen 10 potentially? I'd rather be told it's not realistic than any more false hope and faded optimism.

 

Absolutely correct, but you still shouldn't be putting yourself in that position.
Personally, I think the xx days early access thing should be outright banned because it's just a scummy way of manipulating people into buying blind.

 

They can fix them, they won't as it takes time and Sony and MS won't allow them to charge for updates.

 

I liked how in depth he is with the 3 pronged attack they are doing. It was informative l.

But when he said the 1st 2 prongs really are we just need to get at it and do it?

What the heck has been going on for the last year then if it was priority.

The 1st prong I get going over every DLC to optimize the textures sounds time consuming. Perhaps since it seems busier timetables are the biggest cause maybe work on just all the locos 1st, then the routes.

The unloading he was talking about for the 2nd prong should have been completed by now if they were really working on it as a priority because it sounds like that could give us the biggest fix from the blurries if they would just get to it and do it. And why it wasn't done before when you started making 9th gen versions sounds just silly.

As for prong 3 ... going over the code he was clear that its a multi year process and a big job which I have always said it sounds like it would take that long but I do think we will see the least amount of improvement from this towards blurry textures, just better performance.

Thats my thoughts on the matter.

But no I'm happy with what I own so free upgrade for now.

 

I'm thinking of doing this, but might even hang fire and see what it all looks like when that big update arrives in December before I commit.

 

i wouldn’t even be surprised if that’s the avenue dtg try and pursue, however i don’t think they can afford to wait that long, not only is gen 10 still a couple of years away, the uptake of those machines will be very low in the beginning, much lower than the gen 9 launch

 

I guess I give them some credit for not skipping a console stream altogether, but the reaction seems to be universally negative, which is obviously bad when it represents the majority of the playerbase.

I started playing TSW on Xbox One when that version launched, and mostly stayed there until TSW4/5 when I started slowly rebuilding my collection on Steam and now I only play TSW there.

I don't ever remember the game performing so badly on the Xbox versions of those older titles. It's disgraceful that it's in such a state and being sold at full price.

My interpretation of the (main) problem is that a console development team at DTG simply doesn't exist anymore (if it ever did).

My guess is they assign their junior-most developer to "port" the most-recent stable PC build to consoles, tweak the game's internal settings to a low-spec build wrt graphics settings, enabled layers, etc, hit "publish", and, boom, sent for certification.

After cert, it's sent to the beta testers, they see what a disaster it is, identify fixes, which are sent back to development for the next PC build. Meanwhile, the certified build is out in the wild, warts and all. Finally, I'd wager a good number of bugs are not replicable on their dev builds cause they're specific to the console hardware so, they close those tickets, and round and round we go.

Am I pretty close?

Our friends on PS and Xbox deseve better. DTG absolutely must hire a dedicated console team.

And the PC players celebrating this mess are just foolish if they don't think they could be treated just as poorly some day.

 

Microsoft have always given me no questions asked refunds.

 

Yeah I’ve always hated the early access thing games do. It’s just a manipulation tactic to inflate the cost of a game edition. It’s not early access as much as its punishment for buying standard editions so you don’t get to play on the release date.

Surely there has to be some advertising/product description law in at least one continent that covers this. If you can release a game on a specific date, that is only days before another ‘launch’ date, then can you really say that isn’t the actual release date?

We aren’t talking about some early access build that’s intended to gather player feedback & garner financial support for development, it’s literally a matter of 5 days, so how is it not just delaying the release for standard edition customers.

 

PlayStation are the really dodgy ones for refunds. But by law you have to be able to back out of a purchase until you have the item

 

I'll be shocked if we see them before Christmas '28 at the earliest. No chance in 2027.

 

Late 2028 at the absolute earliest. But most won't adopt one for a very long time after release. In this economy, most can't justify spending almost 1k on a console

 

If they can even get it that low. This chips bubble is totally insane, who knows how high it ends up going before it pops?

 

Depends on how the texture pool is setup too, if it’s set to a specific amount then it wouldn’t matter if you put 128gb of memory in your console. This is likely why PS5 pros are still suffering despite having the extra couple of gigs available.

You’d be dependent on DTG doing a specific gen10 build & honestly I’d be concerned they’d push it too far, for thinking the hardware will pick up the slack where optimisation should be, and after a couple of years we’d be in the same place. I mean look at gen8 getting ditched after the game gradually got worse & worse, gen9 is headed to the same place & I don’t think we’re far away from seeing layers getting cut.

 

I think Matt mentioned in yesterday's stream that they have not optimized the game to utilize the PS5 pro's additional hardware resources.

 

Some of the more recent routes already have content missing on XBox Series S.

 

Yes which is my point, if the texture pool is set at X amount, it’s not going to matter if you plug in a gen10 machine with extra memory.

Don’t quote me on this but I’m pretty sure there are simple & enhanced implementations of PS5 pro enhancements. Stuff like PSSR yes is going to need significant work, but bumping the texture pool size or increasing FPS caps is less significant.

We saw this with how series X got their improvement to draw distance after they separated the build from S which was limiting the game more than necessary for the X.

 

The ps5 'pro' has about 1.2GB extra shared RAM than the base ps5. That alone won't make a massive difference

 

It’s a huge amount if your texture pool is set to 4GB.

 

True. But impossible to judge if we don't know how DTG are using it.

 

Its hard to get an exact number yes, but if we look at the 390 discussion they had regarding reducing it from 300mb which was ‘huge’, then we can assume 1 to 2 GB is a significant margin on top of the existing pool.

 

I wasn't making you out as a culprit (after all, pretty much every one of us has regretted a preorder at some stage or other), I was just pointing out that anyone who freely chooses to pay up front must therefore accept the consequences of their actions because we should all know full well by now that what a developer says you're going to get isn't necessarily the same as what you're actually going to get.

 

The ambassadors are of course able to express there honest thoughts and opinions. No idea where all you think they only have nice things to say. I've seen plenty of critiques from ambassadors.

 

I'm still in shock when he said every different train that pops into view and added to the VRAM pool and then after it passes its never removed but always remains in the VRAM.

If you want to free up VRAM wouldn't start here with removing them from the pool seems to me that would be the biggest/quickest fix that we would see the most improvement on for busy timetables that have a large variety in stock.

So why in 9 months since we were told it was priority one this has not been done yet?!?!?

Seems like a no-brainer to me. It starting to feel like months have been spent looking for a quick easy fix and none were found when action should have been made on the obvious first.

Short cuts and cut corners won't work to fix this and in fact thats probably why we are in this state to begin with.

Sorry but this stream really irked how I feel lets see results and stop talking about how to fix it and just do it. Lets see some signifigant improvement of some kind, up to now we have not seen much at all. Only told about it.