Poll: Should Formal Action Be Taken Against Dtg For Mis-marketing The Oakville D L C ?

Some DTG customers have complained on these DTG Forums that the last route DLC content, Oakville SubDivision (OSD), released on 20th February 2020, was marketed in an unfair way, or that the marketing materials amounted to "false advertising". Do you agree?

Some of the marketing materials that people have complained about are still in place, over a week later - these include:

- an advertorial called "Oh Canada"
- a PDF manual published on Steam (from 20th February to date)
- a pre-release "DevStream" video on YouTube

There could be other materials published, that are not listed above.

The description of the "extent" of the product was the main cause of concern. Some people believed that the marketing materials implied (and continue to imply) that they were (and are) being offered considerably more content than turns out to be the case in reality, and that consequently they were being misled when making a decision to purchase the content. Do you think that this is true? Why do you think that this is true?

You can answer these questions by indicating your view in the poll above. You have two votes, and you can change them at any time if you change your mind (after thinking about it). You can also leave details of your experiences in the thread below. If there are any marketing materials that you think are misleading, please provide a reference and/or link, and explain why you think it is wrong, unfair, or untrue.

Some people that have bought the DLC are quite happy with the content that they have purchased. If you are happy with the content, and you do not feel that you have been misled, please indicate this in the poll, using your votes above. If you want to describe your reasoning, please do so in the thread below.

You do not need to have made a purchase of OSD to take part in this poll - but you are asked to express (and vote on) an honest belief, and only with respect to the Oakville OSD DLC.

If there is a very strong desire (in the poll numbers) in support of formal action, then this will be highlighted to DTG, and if there is no reasonable response, then further formal action will be taken - the matter will be referred to UK authorities for enforcement and/or legal action to take place.

Please note: that if you are reading this, that this Poll is being facilitated by DTG themselves, which is, quite frankly, a pretty awesome thing for them to allow or tolerate, on their own Forums.

PLEASE DOUBLE NOTE: Please make all views known in a reasonable way. Whatever you read in this thread, please respect all views. It is likely that people will disagree, and this is fine - but please be kind to each other.

 

I am on the fence of how I feel to vote for this issue yes they made a big mistake in misleading us that all of the Hamilton yard was accessible. Both on the Dev stream and in the material provided. Essentially we paid for the route as it is modeled and even though buildings are just place everywhere it should accessible. I would have happy if they just had taken the time to complete it properly then release it to us.

They have issued a apology and plan to make things right, which for me is a start and a step in the right direction. And that they will get back us on what they intend to do to correct the issues at hand.

My feeling are it should have never come to this and that they need to slow down a bit and put such deadlines on projects. Best practice is to put a pending release date and if things need to be pushed back then that is fine, because that would show that they want to release something that they would be proud of.

 

I don’t the legal action should be taken place, although DTG were well aware of their actions and I very much doubt it was an ‘accident’ before launch.

It was more of a ‘let’s include all of the map on the manual, even the non accessible areas’ as opposed to telling us what we could actually do. As this would look a lot less impressive, thus reducing interest and sales.

They’ve basically lied and tried to see how long they could get away with it before people start to notice and ask questions. Only then, when the subject gets heated, they reply with a half hearted excuse of a response.

I am in no rush to purchase any of their future DLC, especially after the recent scandal. So I will hold off until it has been reviewed thoroughly, as I can no longer trust DTG and their product descriptions.

 

My view is that legal action is an overreaction and is not going to help either party. Even if the law does get involved it's highly unlikely any action will be taken.

It was a grave error that DTG made but honestly the parts of the yard you can explore are still quite big. Plus even if they did include the whole yard, I bet the service timetable would have to be completely reworked which means time that would normally be spent on other routes or fixes, would be used instead to fix some silly yard that less than 1% of TSW players actually care about.

As customers all we can do is critique, it's up to DTG to act. This isn't going to attract mainstream news like the Star Wars Battlefront II fiasco. Voting with your wallet is still the best way to show a company whether you're interested or not.

Lawsuits massively effect companies, especially small ones like DTG. Lets say you're successful in getting legal action, what do you gain? Absolute worse case scenario you risk TSW being shut down for good.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents. I just wanna drive trains and interact with other train enthusiasts, not get involved in legal drama. If you wanna go ahead with it then more power to you, but I want no part of it.

 

Is there a chance DTG will add in the features they mislead us to believe were there? Seems to me that would be in their best interest to do.

 

Definitely no legal actions against DTG. Even DTG made some mistakes they absolutely don't deserve that.

And I think they did not violate the law. They made mistakes in a little part of the manual, the map. If such a little mistake would be a consumer law violation, there would be only a little amount on companies and products that are completely lawful. And even courts know, that you can not make from a little mistake a law violation.

That's why administration decisions from an agency because of that would be absolutely inadequate.

 

It depends if the legal action is to force compliance (OK) or for some broader undefined reason less savoury in nature (Not OK). We sadly live in a litigious society these days but its an interesting unintended barometer of DTGs consumer feedback capabilities if it was ever allowed to get that far.

 

I don't think that legal action is necessary at all. However, DTG should really consider pulling the route from the Steam store and re-releasing it when it is where it should be. In my opinion, their marketing and business plan (especially for Oakville) is sketchy and should be investigated. Us rail simulator fans are tired of crappy, half-baked content being released at premium prices. If this continues, I am sure they will lose their fanbase and customers, ultimately causing the downfall of Dovetail Games (which we don't want to see happen (seriously!)!).

 

Enforcement action varies depending on the severity of the issue (and this is not a "severe issue", by any stretch of the imagination). There is a pretty good website here that explains what a general business should consider:

https://www.businesscompanion.info/...-powers-enforcement-and-penalties#Prosecution

Note that the scope of the enforcing authority (in the UK) includes:

fair trading, which includes:

• pricing
• descriptions of goods, digital content and services
• terms and conditions

(It is possible that not everyone is aware that digital content, like TSW DLC, is within scope).


JUST A QUICK NOTE: I will not be taking forward any action (this time) unless there is a clear-cut will from the community to do this. The risks going forward work both ways:

- if DTG faces no sort of action, and this is what the community wants, then the community is in less of a position to complain if DTG "rinse and repeat" with every future DLC....so to speak...
- if action is taken against DTG, then precious resources will be expended by them (instead on delivering a service), and their reputation will be damaged, which could impact on future partnerships with rail companies, banks, etc...., and they might not be able to make your favourite game for much longer after that...

This is a difficult problem, so take your time deciding where to place your two votes. You can always come back and change your votes, if you change your mind.

I will leave this Poll running for a week (if DTG allow it to stay up). DTG can intervene at any time in a positive way, by removing certain marketing materials, and by clearly communicating their intentions.

 

I think the regulators have enough tod do with real consumer rights violators, that make consumers sick or bring them to bankruptcy. They should not concentrate on a train enthusiasts simulation developers team that makes perhaps a little mistake.

 

That would be the best remedy in my opinion. Finish the route and provide it as a free update, not a paid extension.

 

It is my hope that, if nothing else, the fact that we are even having this discussion is enough of a wakeup call for management.

 

Surely then this poll should be extended to other forums where there is a trainsim community? We are not an official spokesmen or spokeswomen for the whole group of TSW users! I get the feeling judging by the positive reviews from PS4 users that they would not be supportive of any action!

It would be ironic (althogh very unliely) if action againt DTG resulted in the end of TSW, I don't think many people would be thanking you for that!

 

One the one hand, I don't want DTG (or any company for that matter) to ever think they can get away with this type of practice or for them to continue their trajectory of pumping out poor value and seemingly untested products. However, on the other hand, I don't want to kill TSW.

I think DTG need to show much more contrition for this episode, make some commitments to do better and deliver on those commitments. We are all now watching. Trust has been compromised.

Struggling to see how anyone, other than the utterly deluded, those on the payroll or trolls, can vote for the last option.

 

This might, or might not, be the whole purpose behind the thread.... Maybe. Maybe not. Who can tell what was in the mind of that half-crazed OP...? It's like trying to guess what a factory is making by standing outside the factory grounds and listening to the noise of the machinery in the assembly room. Whilst listening to a Taylor Swift CD/MP3, ....very loudly, on your car stereo, whilst in the car park and having an argument with your wife/husband***. So - not easy - that's all I'm saying. And made even more difficult if your wife is actually Taylor Swift.

Another thing that isn't easy, is time travel, even though everyone does it, all the time, every second of every day...slowly moving forward in time. What I mean is - it's difficult to predict the future. You cannot know which way to go, with any certainty.

So - Maybe....maybe, doing absolutely nothing (about Oakville) is the worst case scenario, because maybe DTG will lower their standards even further, completely lose their customer base, and finally go bust. Or maybe some intervention now, by a Trading Standards Officer will be a good thing: Quick reminder of the law, and why the Regulation applies. General shake-up ensues. DTG then neatly tie the laces on their boots, and then don't trip up and fall down a massive mine-shaft. For example.

It's like The Unbearable Lightness of Being all over again. Life is light. Who knows what the future holds for us all, when the slightest action can trigger a tsunami of an avalanche of a virus outbreak..., or indeed, the onset of world peace.....?

***Not unlike trying to guess what's going on with DTG....

 

How can you have multiple votes in a poll like this? Surely your stance is in one camp not more than one!

 

You just make a setting for the Poll to allow for more than one vote....? ;-P

More seriously - I accept your point - it is worth questioning this. The poll is designed this way to help determine the strength of feeling, and to be future-proofed (in case DTG do the sensible thing, and withdraw any questionable marketing materials that are still in place).

So the results need interpretation, in light of potential future events. You should note that the first two "YES" options are sort of nested - one is a "worse" version (or continuing version) of the other. So, I would look at the highest of these two to determine the YES vote (or, if DTG remove the marketing materials, then I would only look at the first YES vote). I would consider the NO vote to be the sum of the two NO options, noting that two votes were available to each voter, and noting that a certain number think that nothing was wrong at all (again - it is almost a nesting, but not quite...).

As it happens, I have quite a bit of experience in conducting research and consultation exercises - and the results would be expressed in a fair (and defendable) way.

At time of writing this post, the votes cast for the options were 18 and 24 for YES..... with 25 and 5 for NO. You could therefore interepret this as:

25 vs 24 in favour of NO action (plus 5 that think nothing was wrong at all); or
30 vs 24 in favour of NO action (potentially including 5 that think that nothing was wrong at all).

But... if DTG removed the questionable materials then the "24" becomes not relevant, and would be replaced by 18.

Basically, as it stands at time of writing this post, the view expressed is 50/50, which I think is spectacularly damning, given the nature of the cohort that is responding to this question - ie. the most die-hard fans of Train Sim World and/or DTG.

 

Since it's more like half a route,instead of the whole map,just drop it to half price 14.99 and skip any legal action.

 

Well I would like to see any evidence you have that the most die hard fans of TSW are on this forum. I think that is rather patronising to be honest. I know a couple of serious train simmers who look at forums like these and give them a wide berth, I can often see why!

I think representations from the wider user base would be a far more damming example rather than taking a sample from one forum.

 

Your kind words about users of this Forum have been noted, and they are given equal standing to everyone else's views, even if they are not necessarily to everyone's liking.

You are welcome to point other people to the Poll, so that others can make their views known as well.

 

I wondered when we would get to the faux outrage bit!

The atmosphere here has been quite toxic for some while with some pretty unpleasant posts going around, although I notice some posters have been quiet for a few days! The majority of posters are respectful however it only takes a few to turn a friendly place into a less than friendly one which it hasn't been recently and that will turn people away, which it has done.

And forum members certainly don't need being patronised to!

 

Your kind words have been noted, and they continue to be given equal standing to everyone else's views, even if they are not necessarily to everyone's liking.

You are welcome to tone down the toxicity, and reduce the number of patronising posts that are wholly within your control.

 

Well you need to read your posts they are very patronising, anyway continue your breast beating and ego massaging.

 

You are welcome to tone down the toxicity, and reduce the number of patronising posts that are wholly within your control.

 

I did not vote because there's no option that suits me.

I would have voted for something like that: NO, I still think DTG's advertising and marketing materials for Oakville continue to be misleading but a legal action is not the right way to go.

 

Oh. That's actually quite a good point. There were other ways to handle this Poll. Conventionally, if a subject is this complicated, then you need to ask four or five questions, maybe nine or ten. So you split each issue up into a distinct question.... But, on here, that would have been a nightmare to manage.... ;-)

But back to your preference - if you assume that it is illegal to market a product using misleading marketing materials (and if you assume that DTG's materials are actually misleading), then you either appear to be suggesting that either:

- DTG be allowed to continue to break the law; or,
- DTG are asked kindly and informally to stop breaking the law now please, and to start being truthful.

I guess that you want the second of these two options. If that is the case, then I would agree with you. I am hoping that the prospect of being forced to stop breaking the law (or appearing to break the law), will be enough to stop them.

I don't know if I have guessed right about your preferences. But I would ask you this question.... At what point would you draw the line, and decide that something needs to be done formally....?

So, for example (as an extreme example) - if everyone that pre-ordered the Oakville DLC were expecting to get some playable content (as advertised), but they only got a picture of a train for them to use as a screensaver or PS4 theme, plus some vague apology for any "misunderstanding", would you want any formal action taken?

 

I think a good remedy would be to discount the price for those of us who bought it after having been mislead. Maybe 1/3 refund. They can keep selling at full price for new buyers after they remove the misleading statements and video.

Asides from the missing zones that I was mislead into thinking were included, the rest of the DLC is nice and quite fun to play. So I think the best option is to refund a portion of the money we paid and ensure this fiasco never happens again.

 

You sound like you have no life at all

 

Life? Don't talk to me about life. Tssshh. Tssshh. Tssshh. Tssshh.

Anyway. All I do every day is what these humans tell me to do.

"Take these humans here"
"Take these humans there"
"Do you mind, Synthia, turning down the temperature of the cabin?"

Turn down the temperature of the cabin...! Really. Is that all you want me to do...? Okay, I will adjust the thermostat.... And why the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation gave me this personality.... that is something that I will never know.

Typical. At least I don't have to talk to their reps from the Marketing Division. That would be a dreadful experience, I can assure you.

Synthia
(Your plastic pal that's fun to be with...!)

 

What?

 

Yeah. Exactly....!

Your apology has been accepted.

 

You are a crazy man. Who do you think you are?

 

Lucky that more people are annoyed at him.
He seems to think he is some kind of leader type here (his forum he think) . He can't have a life.
All he do 24 hours is be here and write and write and write in black bold text.

A reply to synthetic below
I think Trainsfiend is a person who usually only reads this forum but now think one person has gone too far and writes about it.

 

I don't know who I am. Maybe. Maybe, I am just a brain in a jar. I can't quite tell.

I do know what I am not though. I am not someone that joins a Forum as a new member, and then goes out of their way to insult someone with their second posting, for being interested in trains. That's not me.

 

I know, i know!! You are a *sorry, can't say it here*. (NO, not bad words but also not very polite, so i won't say it loud).

 

Hi Jorgen

I am just an average guy, you know....? To answer your point about "life" - well.... I multi-task.... ;-)

And yes - I have, in the last couple of weeks been a bit concerned about the Oakville DLC (I actually think it is a lovley DLC...)..... but anyway - I think what DTG has done has not been quite right. And yes, I am also concerned about the broken DB BR 155 on RSN on PS4, which was never tested, but released for sale on PlayStation Store as a specific loco to be used on RSN (at the time).

Synthia

 

Hi Maik....!

Thanks for popping in.... How's it going with all of your... um... "content" for TS 2020 and TSW... Do you think that maybe you might want to spend your time more productively, testing things to see if they work.... before you start selling them... ?

Have you got any plans to place buildings on top of rail yards, in your next work - as a sort of art installation...?

 

No worries, i always test my stuff before it gets released. You would know that if you would own anything from me yet. And yes, i definetly have plans to place buildings on top of rail yards, for sure. Who has not such intentions when dealing with railroads.

 

b-o--r---i----n-----g--------------------------------------------------------

 

Are you testing things now? That's good to hear...!

I do hope that one day, when someone can be bothered to do it, that the people that made the DB BR 155 decide to start testing it for running on RSN, on the PS4 - because it has a problem with being silenced when it goes through tunnels. I do hope that they fix that, you know, before the PS4 itself becomes obsolete.

 

I couldn't agree more. But Maik is entitled to put a point of view across on whether or not he actually tests his products before selling them - and if he says that he does test them, then I am sure that everyone would feel very assured by that.

 

That implies you had the idea that i never tested my stuff before your question. But let me tell you, i tested my work since i started making DLC for TS in 2011 (and of course even before with my other work). No idea why you think i have not tested my work before your question here (at least that is the feeling i got from your post). I cant help you with the 155. So maybe that get fixed only when you were become obsolete

 

That's really good to know that you are now testing things. I really think that having a sound approach to QA and QC is the right way to move forward with TSW, and this should prevent the large number of bugs that plague each new release in future (and some old ones, like the DB BR 155, for example).

I love testing. Have you played Portal and Portal 2? They are all about testing. It's basically testing Heaven. Really very successful games they were too - and you know what - they tested the games during the development phase, before they put the games on sale. Which, I think, is the fair way to do it.

They tested a game that was all about testing....! Would you believe it...! ? !!!

 

Again, it implies that you think i never tested before. Can you explain it more to me please.

 

Sorry - I thought you said that you were currently testing things....? In the present day? Have you now stopped testing things?

If so, then I'd say that that would be a turn for the worse, unless you have put in a layer of quality control, at a system level above that - to provide assurance for your lower level production processes. Which would be fine, of course, but you'd probably want to get the system level process accredited independently if you are going to do that. A good option though - if you have confidence in your process.

 

Well, if you are really going to do this sort of thing, say, if you are working on a new German route for TSW, then I think it would be a great shame. It reminds me of the whole thing that happened with the Hamilton yards (with the Oakville DLC) - and, I have to be honest with you - if you really plan to do this - and you used the word "definetly" - then I think that you would be making a mistake. Most people don't want to see a repeat of this with any new DLC:


(as originally posted by Factor41)

Seriously - can I urge you to think again - and please keep the buildings outside of the swept envelope of the trains, and well outside the static gauge, if possible - for authenticity purposes - that's what they do on the real railway, you see.

NB: You can get the relevant gauging standards from UIC, if you are interested in that sort of thing, and want to avoid rolling stock colliding with warehouses, if that will help you.

 

Dude (sorry), you drive me crazy, nothing more. You'r running in circles with your answers. Just nonsense to me at least. So i will definetly stop now talking with you in any way. Think that will make you more happy then.

But one last thing. Presenting an image over and over, with something doing on it what was never intended to do, doesnt help. Thats just distant scenery. When you(the other user) utilizing a glitch to get there, than thats your own problem. You dont have to do that. My very own QA proccedure would not allow that, for sure, but DTG is not me. My needs are way higher then theirs (what is always a real problem, believe me). At the end it is just a Game. Games use distant filling scenery all over. I had alot of walks besides the normal paths in diverse AAA games and found alot of such stuff there too. That is nothing that is on TSW only. So please calm down and maybe stop your 'mission' to take formal action on DTG because of such a tiny bit of gaming issue. False advertising or not, its simply not that important as what you are try to tell to the world.

 

Apology accepted. Thank you. I am happy to start again with a clean slate, if you like - with no offence taken from your various apparently slightly emotive postings, which I have always thought were a bit of an over-reaction.... Anyway..... I don't hold grudges.

(Although, please note, that I am still going to be leaving some clues to the person that made the broken DB BR 155 that maybe they should fix it). I personally think that the DB BR 155 has the potential to be the absolute best loco in TSW, if someone fixes it - but until that happens, I want to make sure that as many PS4 players as possible are fully warned about the fact that the DB BR 155 is very very broken, before paying the super-extreme-almost limitless-deluxe-mega-infinite-premium..... price for it

I would agree, that in the grand scheme of things, that TSW is just a game. However - here is something that might interest you - people actually care about TSW. And they don't just care a little bit. Take a look at this poll:

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...t-floranfauna-nukes-or-train-sim-world.20796/

...and you will see that people on this Forum consider it to be more important to fix TSW, than it would be to save most of life on planet Earth.

As long as TSW could be made to work, people (including myself) would be prepared to live on a lifeless post-nuclear apocalyptic world that has insufficent atmospheric oxygen to breathe outside, and which is coated in an unhealthy layer of radioactive virus-ridden plastic pollution.

And if there is a plentiful supply of Mr Kipling's exceedingly good custard and apple pies - then the misery of living in this dystopic chemically poisoned hell world would be completely forgotten while playing TSW. And if you could run the DB BR 155 on RSN on the PS4 as well - then nothing more would be needed to sustain the last few remaining humans on this broken future world (and I wouldn't personally blame DTG for destroying the planet - because they don't deserve to be blamed for that as well as the dodgy stuff put out by their marketing bods....). ;-)

 

He's crazy. I reckon he and Factor41 are the same guy. I read his post history, he replies and has discussions with himself, and likes his own posts. They both have the same style of writing, he doesn't even bother hiding it. Check out their post history you'll see what I mean.