Hrr - Hauptstrecke Rhein-ruhr, Thoughts.

Hi there everyone!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new DLC.

My first impression is very positive. I really like the high speeds and the split of the two different lines from Essen to Bochum. The scenery is epic and I enjoy the spaghetti of the tracks along the route. It really gives the route a feeling of significance and grandeur, even though it's quite short at <50km. For comparison, in TSXX, Berlin Hbf - Berlin Airport is >80km. I kinda wish though that the line extended to Dortmund. The high speeds and long platforms give me a feeling that this route would be perfectly suited for ICE-traffic. I wonder when the ICE's are coming to TSW, maybe as a Loco Add-On? I certainly miss my ICE's from TSXX.

I have encountered problems, yes, but I will compile a detailed bug report as soon as I can pinpoint them. So far it seems that there are a few too many 2000Hz GPA magnets everywhere. Some Lf6's are also missing, which is not nice. Also I'm seriously disappointed that the Dosto's weren't added to RRO even in this update.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/petition-to-make-dosto-driveable-on-rro.19044/

What do you think folks? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

I'm following this thread because I wondered why there wasn't much buzz around the release in general. I was like "wait a minute why is nobody talking about this?"

 

Hi there
First bug identified:

Kilometer post 127.0, heading towards Essen. There is a distant signal X marker, with no distant signal attached to it. Closely after there is a GPA for a Lf7 which will eradicate all your hopes of being on time in Essen. This GPA is correctly placed in front of an 11 Lf7, yet there is no Lf6 nor Zs3v announcing this. Every time i get a Zwangsbremsung 1.9km before Essen, since i am not expecting the speed reduction, since there is no announcement incoming.


There is a Ne2 board here with no signal.

Cheers,
Prof.

 

I agree. It's less "romantic" than some of the other German routes in my opinion and I welcome the tougher, urban, high speed feel of it. It's a welcome addition to the German routes and further extends their range from slower paced, green scenery to busier rougher environments.

 

I definitely like this route as well. Another great adition to the German routes in TSW. It is indeed still missing some high speed trains like the BR 101 or true high speed like the ICE. I know for sure the ICE drives here, since the first time I went to Germany I took an ICE from Rotterdam to Duisburg. As far as I know, for that service it was not the final destination and it would continue further. This is 8 years ago so I don't know for sure, but from the TSW perspective the route is pretty straight thus perfect for some moderate high speed trains. ICE would maybe be overkill though, as you can't go faster than 160 km/h here.

 

I was kinda the same. I feel like there was less hype in the built up to the release, and people didn't seem particularly excited about it - it felt pretty much the same as RRO from the pre-launch materials, and I guess people were quite negative about that when it came out. I actually quite like RRO, but didn't feel like this was adding much, although...

This actually sounds like something that I'd like. I'm usually kept more interested by routes which are more urban with obvious landmarks, than the rolling green hills and fields of RSN or MSB, so this may be something I'll pick up at some point. We'll have to see how lockdown goes as to whether I need to grab it early or can hold off until it reaches a future sale!

Edit to add: Who voted "Horrible waste of my money"? Can we have some reasons as to why you feel like that?

 

Fun route to drive for the time being but the wow factor will wear off rather quickly. Quality great as usual but, I wanted it for the BR 425 to add to my german fleet and I know the guy over at trainsim.cz will find a way to get it on the other german routes. With that said I kinda see why routes like this is a dime in a dozen. High speed routes hitting 90mph and over can't be short because it will end to quickly if those speeds can be sustain over long periods. I hope I'm wrong in thinking DTG's mindset behind that but looking at history so far other than GWR we haven't had anything that close. I hope DTG is doing a long project in the back channels for release in future with High speed rail. So many people like me would love to see TGVs, Acela, ICE, AVE, Eurostar etc not the same thing over and over again. Other than that nice route!!!!

 

So hi there again,

another anomaly has manifested on the HRR route. Driving from Bochum to Essen and approaching Essen Hbf, the Zs3 on the signal leading into the section of junctions just before Essen wants me to approach them at a speed of 100kph?!?! No way in hell a train is supposed to blitz through this

while switching over twice at 100kph. That AI was going somewhere around 60, if my frame-by-frame measurement is correct, and that seems much more reasonable.

Here is another bug right around Essen:

Power outage?

I'll continue to update you with bugs I discover on this route.

Cheers,
Prof.

PS: Also the HUD partially doesn't agree with trackside signalling, which caused me to LOSE POINTS. *Screaming*

PPS: The over-exaggerated reaction is a joke, but the fact remains.

 

I quite like the new DLC.
The high speed S-Bahn Express runs are quite fun and with PZB and SIFA you are constantly on the edge of your seat when running with 160 km/h. The RE services with the Dosto are also really nice.
With all the German DLCs installed there is quite some traffic.

Some bugs i found so far...
Track section with wrong speed:
- between Mülheim-Styrum and Duisburg HBF 100km/h just over a bridge
- between Essen HBF and Kray Süd, just bevor the station Kray Süd.
- between Kray Süd and Essen HBF is a 100km/h part bevor the real 100km/h part starts.
- from Bochum to Wattenscheid just bevor Wattenscheid a 100km/h piece

other bugs:
- From Essen HBF to Kray Süd, the second signal does not announce the 90km/h limit, but has a active 1000hz magnet.
- In Wattenscheid the Dosto stops to early with the last car off the platform.

 

I own neither RRO nor HRR but I would like to pick up one of them. I would like to hear from those who own both which they prefer and which they think provides the most diverse services/scenery (best value, to put it another way). They do look quite similar but I am sure that they must be reasonably different enough. Thoughts? Criticisms? Likes/dislikes?

 

Hi there,

It's hard to say which one is better, since both of them come with their fair share of problems.

Problems:
RRO:
- Still lacks driveable Dostos (When are they gonna fix this)
- Unless you have MSB you can never reach the 160kph speeds of the main line
- If you do have MSB, the ride from Wuppertal to Hagen on the RE tracks takes 27 minutes with 3 intermediate stops, which is very short.
- Has one buggy spot with a 2000Hz magnet where it's not supposed to be.
- None of the trains with an MFA
- Very weird track curvature at some points on the main line.

HRR:
- Very buggy at times, speed limits around Essen seem very weird.
- From Bochum to Duisburg, on the RE tracks, the total ride takes 28 minutes with 3 intermediate stops, which is very short.
- Unless you own MSB, there are no freight trains on this line.
- Lacks proper destination display on all trains except the 422 and 425. How could this get through QA? It's even visible on the advertising image on Dovetail Live???



Weigh-Off:
RRO benefits over HRR:
- Has more diverse scenery, more diverse services, comes with freight operations, and a larger split between two lines. The ride on the S-Bahn lines is significantly longer and slower, akin to RSN.
- The pre-made scenarios are more engaging, in my opinion, than the scenarios of RRO.
- Comes with freight and a freight loco.

HRR benefits over RRO:
- Has higher achievable speeds and feels more urban due to the very large amount of tracks everywhere
- Comes with the 425, a similar train to the 422, but with a vastly different driving experience due to the completely different instrument displays.
- If you own MSB/RSN, the Dosto's actually become driveable, unlike on RRO. Though to reach the max speeds I'd advise having MSB.


Which one to choose?
Pick HRR if:
- You prefer to play in service mode.
- You don't like freight operations / are not interested in freight.
- You like high speeds and very powerful MU's
- You like the urban style of the route.
- You plan on learning to drive passenger services without HUD.
Pick RRO if:
- You prefer to play scenarios.
- You like battling against steep gradients, on slower passenger runs with more frequent stops.
- You like freight operations and want a "new" freight loco or have freight loco DLC's, ideally the 182.
- You like more rural scenery and less tracks overall
- You like having the option to undertake two vastly different rides. (S-bahn and Mainline)
- You plan on learning to drive freight services without HUD. (You can drive without HUD on the S-bahn lines, but it's very hard due to frequent stops)

Hope I gave you an insight into the differences of the two routes!

Cheers,
Prof.

PS: For me personally, solely because my favorite train is the Dosto-led consist with the 146 pushing, HRR is the better choice. If I could get away from my beloved Dostos I'd prefer RRO.

 

Hey Prof, I can't control myself, bought the HRR now since I had so much fun with RRO and to me it seems like "it is not getting worse" ... which is something. No, seriously, RRO was the first route I did EVERYTHING (exept collecting stuff aside the tracks) which means something at least. I love the BR422 (used to ride it every day).

So ... guys, I'll give my impressions this evening.

 

Hi there. I'll appreciate if you test the SIFA function in a scenario. I think SIFA is broken.

 

Sometimes you need to stand up and sit back down again for Sifa to work properly. I don't know what's causing it.

But it seems to work normally?

Cheers,
Prof.

 

It works fine in any timetable mode drive, but for scenarios you first have to stand up for it to work.

 

Thanks, that did the trick. Now it works fine.

 

I voted Okay, could be worse and then changed it to Good, could do better though.

I like the number of different services in timetable mode - lots of trains to choose from, different types of service (RB, RE, S-Bahn, freight) and 374 services in total.
As I'm writing this, sitting on a red signal near Müllheim Styrum waiting for a slot on the mainline, the traffic is quite dense here!

Overall, the route looks quite nice, but it has so many patches of brown nothingness, no vegetation between the tracks. Duisburg Hbf felt very distinct, but other parts of the route feel same-y. It might be my personal preference though.

The two scenarios and the RE service I've played so far had a VERY tight timetable. The tutorial tells you to accelerate slowly and brake early to provide a comfortable ride, but boy, if you want to be on time, you have to nail your virtual passengers to their seats.

Also, the control desk on BR 425 keeps flickering like crazy for some reason.

 

For comparing, a run of an RE6, the represented part is from 1h-1h30m. Duisburg HBF - Mülheim HBF - Essen HBF - Wattenscheid - Bochum HBF

 

Hi folks

A shocking issue has faced me
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jFIk8A-Y0KNQqXeYDMKzsWszTI6T1Ssw/view?usp=sharing

Please watch the 15 second clip.

Am I colorblind? The signal was... green... right? Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Prof

NEW BUG DISCOVERED

Exiting Essen towards Wattenscheid on a RE1 service, just before the two lines split, the signal which is supposed to have the Zs3v to announce the 90-limit over the junctions on the fork, doesn't properly display the 90, whilst the 1000Hz is active.

 

Yes ProfCreeptonius a known issue they are looking at. On going into HRR yesterday would you believe I got a spad during the Intro Tutorial and I was sat in the back riding along!!!!!

 

I wonder if the red signal on the other track was crosswired?

 

Noticed that too, went down to 100 kph and then at the junctions I thought "OOOH this feels awfully faaaaaast" - I went through it but I figured this has to be a bug.

 

Thank you, Prof. This is a wonderfully helpful reply. I think I will snag RRO instead because I enjoy playing without the HUD on the German routes and I think it would be a rewarding experience to learn the stations.

That reminds me, do the trains on either route have EBuLa screens? Not a big deal if not, I can always print out a table myself.

Cheers!

 

Not officially, but a well done mod: https://rail-sim.de/forum/wsif/index.php/Entry/5553-EBuLa-für-RRO-S-Bahn/

 

Oh, excellent! I can't wait to pick it up (on the next sale...)!

 

The sun shining into the cab from behind makes playing without the hud impossible. The sun completely blocks out the Speedometer at times.

The route does seem shorter than the other German routes, probably due to the higher speed limits.

Would it have taken much effort to add destinations from this route to the 146.2/Doppelstockwagen, and add the local transport authority logos to the side of the coaching stock? I know strictly the 146.2 and coaching stock don't come with the route but small touches like these would add so much and yet take (I assume) little time. Maybe a 146.0 with the route as well as the 425 would've added some variety straight off the bat and wouldn't be seen as recycling stock as much.

Having watched a few videos at Essen Hbf, there are quite a few green & white DBAG 422s flying about, also AI only ICE / IC services really are missing from TSW, of course it would be lovely to be able to drive them but it would make sense with short routes to have them at least as AI only to fill in the gaps in traffic when driving about.

It's an alright route, as a whole but I do think effort and imagination is lacking, personally.

 

You can find a repaint for the 422 here if you would like to add a little variety:
https://rail-sim.de/forum/wsif/index.php/Entry/5976-BR-422-VRR/#description

 

No more room on the displays.

 

That'll replace the red completely though

 

No more room? In what way? And if that's the case, why wasn't the double deck stock released with HRR with destinations found unique to the HRR.

It always seems half baked with TSW, so much effort is clearly put in to these add-ons yet each time they are let down by small things which for the most part will be forgotten and never touched again by the developers.

 

Refunded it until they fix the obvious problems. A bit of QA would have found all the bugs mentioned in this thread. The poll should really have been:

1) QA found these bugs, but dlc was released anyway
2) what QA?

 

nice! Now why can’t dtg include this. Or at least a printed version

 

They have a set release date. Not everything can get fixed prior to release. DTG is aware of these bugs and will work on getting them fixed.

 

And you’re OK with that?

 

As someone who doesn't have the route and probably won't for the immediate future: "to an extent". Any significant software project is going to have some amount of bugs in (even known ones), and they'd be categorised by severity. Some should genuinely stop the product being released, while others should be fixed with varying levels of priority.

I'm not convinced DTG get this balance right, and I'm also not convinced enough gets fixed post-release (the trend seems to be "a bit gets fixed, then nothing happens, then the product gets classified as 'old, not a priority for fixes'"). But releasing something with some known bugs isn't damning or unusual.

---------

From the thread above it sounds like the signalling system is fragile and requires a lot of manual setting up during route building to work. Given that most signalling systems are heavily "rules-based" (and the German one is no exception) this seems like something where there's a lot of room for improvement in the tools.

 

I like this route a lot, I have to say. I thought before playing it that it would be too similar to Rhein- Ruhr Osten, but it feels a lot different. Many tracks, lots of traffic, you can use nearly all the German locomotives and the BR 425 is really fun. Each ride in timetable mode feels different and new. Well done this one.

 

DTG should really, really, really after a decade of almost the same approach, think about this. Just consider that this DLC is, at the moment, is even worse than OSD according to steam review percentage.

Glad I've skipped buying it full price.

P.S. the QA lead job vacancy appeared few weeks ago in DTG site is now gone, maybe they found someone. Hope this will help to improve the process in the future.

 

Looking at the reviews, a significant portion seem to be complaining about buggy signalling. For me (as a non-German who has no intrinsic interest in German railways) the fun in a German route is that there's quite an involved signalling/safety system that's a challenge to get right. That's obviously only fun if the signalling works otherwise it's just a frustrating half-hour of random emergency brake applications.

I think the "safety systems off by default" approach is probably right from an accessibility standpoint. Unfortunately I also suspect it means that they aren't really tested and aren't a priority to fix. Which is a shame (for me) because it's the main appeal of a German route.

 

I only heard of one signal issue.

 

I will wait for a 50% discount ... though it is hard to be patient.

 

ProfCreeptonius posted at least 5 signal issues on this thread; Sintbert posted one.

 

The difficult task of finding a couple of services that work well enough for the live stream must take up the lion’s share of QA time. Then we get a broken product. Then only a small number of things get fixed after release. Not a single bug I’ve reported has been fixed.

 

The route is lovely, for sound enthusiasts like me - they got it right. I think the reverb in tunnels is not too extreme the first time ever.

I have been in Essen like 20 years ago and immediately recognised some landmarks and stations, so this DLC gave me goosebumps because of backflashs hehe

But at the moment, there are bugs and especially around Essen the signaling and PZB are wonky at least, got some unexpected Zwangsbremsungen.

There is a lot going on with AI traffic, very atmospheric for that more urban (but really well done German city look) direction.

For me the invest pays out because I like S-Bahn and German routes.

 

Then... don't release it? Nobody is rushing them? For an analogy: Imagine if a Baker sold you the dough unbaked. This is what DTG's releases feel like

I get it, it's not easy to get it first time every time. But then at least advertise it as a beta release and give us some certainty that the dough will eventually get baked? No problems with that?

There is one annoying 2000Hz Zwangsbremsung when entering Essen from Duisburg, I don't know if this is the one you're referring. If you are also being struck by a mysterious 2000Hz here:

Then pay close attention to the signal before. There is a 13 Lf6 which is sneakily hidden in the shadows and wrongly illuminated; thus very hard to see. But it is this 13-limit that gets you on the 2000Hz GPA. Now this doesn't justify a missing distant signal at the spot I mentioned, but if you pay attention you can spot the 13 Lf6.

I'm very happy that you enjoy it Hyperlord, even though it is currently buggy.

Hope I helped,
Cheers,
Prof.,

 

I agree, generally speaking, but also just think it's a problem endemic to the legacy revenue model of train sims.

"Nobody is rushing them?", except the cash flow needed to keep the whole enterprise running. If they don't release paid DLC at regular intervals, it's game over.

If we're honest with ourselves, this is a niche genre that only exists because a small number of customers will spend (relatively) exorbitant sums on paid expansions. This goes all the way back to MSTS. And i'm one of the biggest whales, i've bought everything except the Class 52 (and on Xbox where we don't even get preorder discounts).

Does that mean we should just be happy about it? Of course not, but what are the alternatives unless another competitor emerges?

They could make the base package free to play, to try to widen the player base and soften the blow of additional paid content- the fact that TSW 2020 is now on Xbox Game Pass suggests that might be a possibility going forward. But this risks a backlash from those who have already paid full price. How do we feel about the other trappings of FTP games? Paid cosmetic packs (i guess it would be livery reskins in this case)? Loot boxes? Seasonal battle passes (rail pass)?

They could move to some sort of subscription model, but would that be sustainable? How much are you willing to pay per month? Netflix, et al, can be profitable on $10-$15/month because they have millions of subscribers. Train sims will never have such a wide appeal. Would you pay $50/month if it resulted in more high quality content?

I think the truth is they have the capacity to release 4-5 really high quality DLC's per year, but need to release 9-12 to keep the lights on, so that's where we are.

Anyway, i like HHR quite a bit despite the bugs- has a nice traffic density, and the 425 sounds great to me.

Also btw i really enjoy your posts-- this one just got me thinking about these issues. Sorry for the long rant!!

 

Very interesting thoughts Disintegration7 !

I've been thinking about this too, and I've been seeing a huge discrepancy between three types of Players: Casual players, Serious players and Code-Nerds. The three terms are arbitrarily chosen:

More Casual players prefer a more arcade-like experience, with lots of simple and easy-to-achieve goals and an overall easy gameplay. They also will not invest much into the game and will easily get deterred by inconsistencies in the game

More Serious players prefer a more realistic and challenging experience. They will accept much more difficult and longer challenges in the gameplay. They are also ready to invest a lot more, if the game fulfills their expectations, which are much higher.

We all are at different time different player types, nobody is "selecting" one of them forever

Here are some values i think the two prototypical player types will appreciate:

Casual:

• Option to play the game very easily and intuitively, very simple and nice-looking HUD
• A lot of assistance options while playing.
• Shorter scenarios which can be completed rather quickly.
• A cheap base package.

Serious

• Realism to the greatest details, maximal implementation of all functionalities of the route/train.
• No HUD/Assistance whatsoever, thus reliable and well-working trackside and in-train signalling.
• Longer and much more challenging scenarios/services.
• Replay-ability and option to make their own expansions/mods.

All types

• Good graphics, interesting routes, good sounds.
• Diverse game experience

I do not claim that I'm an economy-expert. I can, though, say what I feel that the game is currently lacking, since I'm both a Serious player when it comes to German routes, and I'm a casual player when it comes to American routes. This is what in my opinion should change:

• Editor??? Why don't we see an editor? Is DTG scared that they'll have competition if they release the Editor? This is significantly screwing over a giant part of the community and seriously reducing how prepared players are to invest into new DLC. When I bought HRR, I was aware that it's going to be totally separated from the rest of the game and that I'll never be able to combine the new "Material". For instance, I did not buy the 155 because I don't like freight. Though if I knew I could play around with it in the Editor, I would never have neglected to take it.
• Lack of even a basic Ebula. A basic Ebula is better then none at all, as we currently have. The community already is fixing this hiccup, so I'm thankful to all those who are helping.
• Lack of a train guard whistle to inform me when the passengers have finished boarding without requiring me to look at the HUD.
• Lack of any kind of confirmation that bugs I identify will eventually be fixed - Dosto's on RRO, hello?
• Lack of ability to control the train via the HUD, akin to TSXX.

I hope this gives y'all an insight in what i feel about TSW.

I still feel that HRR is in the "beta" phase, because it has too many small hiccups. I hope that these will get looked upon someday.

Cheers,
Prof.

 

Those are some good points.

As I would consider myself more of a serious player than a casual player: Is it really a wish to be able to control the train via the HUD? For me this was never a great experience, so I just want to know.

 

That's me as a casual player on US/Canadian/English routes :P

 

ProfCreeptonius Very good points, and i think it proves what you are saying when i think about what i value in the game.

I also would like to play with HUD off, but there are multiple complications:

Even playing on Xbox 1 X, and a 50" 4K screen, the resolution just isn't good enough to accurately read some of the in-cab dials- eapecially if the gauges are prototypically small. A dedicated zoom button would help a bit, but i think i'm going to have to wait for XSX for a real solution.

Trackside signage (specifically speed limits) can be really hard to make out. German ones and the newer British style (red number on white circle), I can see fine, but the older British and American ones, forget about it. Of course route knowledge is the best method, but i wonder if they'd consider making them slightly bigger to mitigate the lack of a true 3d perpective? An annotated map would also be great, I still can't get over the fact that TS20XX has this, but not TSW.

So, for now, i'm sticking with next signal aspect HUD off, so i've gotten pretty good at reading the signals at least!

I also really hope for the combining of routes that naturally go together (LIRR/NEC, HHR/RRO/RSN). But, being a console player, i'm very sceptical that any user-created content will ever be available. Maybe 3rd-party content as long as it's published by DTG will be there, but Steam Workshop content in the vein of TS20XX, I highly doubt.

So, I guess i hope that DTG themselves would consider combining. The fact of the last 2 German DLCs being so close geographically to RSN makes me wonder if it's something they're working on but can't talk about yet.

Finally, i'm kind of the opposite of you- Serious about USA, casual on Germany with UK somewhere in the middle. Probably cause i've actually seen/interacted with US equipment and not the others.

 

If I am correct, in the prelease stream Matt said that they wanted to merge the routes. He said that putting the routes together is not the problem, but rather it's the timetable and signalling that they haven't figured out so far. To what extend this is the reallity, I don't know, but I'd really like to see this.