What Is The Official Line On Tsw2020?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by longo239, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Can someone fro DTG, which is most likely going to be DTG Protagonist , please confirm what the official situation will be with TSW2020 after the release of TSW2.

    Is TSW2020 being classed as end of life, so it will not be available to purchase and withdrawn from Steam, Dovetail Store etc?

    Or will it be classed as end of service, so there will be no further support, development or bug fixes?

    Asking here rather than in a stream, because it could get missed, be told it was a TSW2 question (which it isnt), or be directed to post it in the forum by the stream mods anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  2. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    It's not being classed as anything. It will remain on sale where it is now. As has already been announced there is no further development planned for it after the release of Train Sim World 2.
     
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  3. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you but what about support and future bug fixes?
     
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  4. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    That's answered with "no further development planned", and was already covered in the Q&A.

    Support will be available for users with a problem (see the support link at the top of the page), but there is no further development planned. Not sure how it can be any clearer.
     
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  5. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Does support extend to fixing game breaking bugs such as Miles Platting crashes?

    And recent releases like the M3 need patching.
     
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  6. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    A slight contradiction in your reply, you say it's answered with "No further development planned" but then say "support will be offered". My understanding of development is that there will be no further new content or improvement.

    Does support include possible fixes or patches to current crashing issues or bugs that some users have already reported?
    Or will that support be limited to stereotypical basic IT support, like turn it off and on again, uninstall and re-install etc?
     
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  7. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I'd say it's the latter.

    It's weird though, because in the Class 20 stream Sam discovered a pretty weird bug with the loco and said he is going to report it himself to the team. But why would he say that when he knows very well they're not going to fix it anymore? The only thing I can think of is a bugfix for it coming before the TSW2 release, I mean they still have like a month for that. But if the Class 20 gets a patch and the M3 doesn't then I'm going to be really disappointed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  8. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Didn't know about the class 20 bug, thanks for sharing... Having bought it yesterday it would be great if it was bug free before they decide to pull the plug!
     
  9. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    It depends how loosely you define "support" and "development", and whether these concepts are flexible enough to cross into each other, or not.... depending on the situation at hand.

    I understand "further development" to mean "further development of the original specification". That would inlcude developing the content beyond the original intended design (as specified).

    I understand "support" to mean a very wide range of activities, including helping users to understand existing content... through to fixing content that is not working as intended (as specified).

    The clarity being sought is whether or not DTG intend to support TSW 2020 DLC... and fix any bugs with the software, after the release of TSW 2.

    Until now, I don't think that "weasel words" has really been your style. It is possible that we have very different understandings of the word "development". So, for absolute clarity:

    Can you please confirm: whether you consider "bug fixing" to be included under the umbrella of "development" or under the umbrella of "support". Will bugs in "pre TSW 2" content be fixed after 6th August 2020?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it, TSW2020 will be up in the loft before the plastic wrapping is off TSW2, never to be looked at again by the development team or testers, for any reason. All bugs will remain as no employees of DTG will be allowed to get the ladder out to go into the loft and even look at TSW2020 with a torch. They’ll be busy downstairs with TSW2.

    *Apologies if this analogy is too British for everyone to understand.
     
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  11. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    The immediate response to the OP says that TSW DLC (pre TSW 2) content will remain on sale. Therefore they must continue to address bugs with TSW - or withdraw all of the DLC from sale under TSW 2020. That's it.

    The question remains on whether they want to encourage/dissuade bugs from being reported.... and I think to get clarity on that, we would have to see an explicit statement like "We do not accept bug reports for original TSW content under TSW".

    But you will never see this statement, because they want to continue to sell the DLC under TSW 2020. They can't make the above statement, and then sell the DLC. It won't be permitted.

    This will be a key test of how DTG intend to communicate their intentions.
     
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  12. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I daren't go up in my loft... to much crap in there!
     
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  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I agree. If it’s still on sale bugs will still be reported, new ones might develop, there are still many outstanding that ought to be addressed. If bugs are still reported and nothing gets fixed in the future, that will show that it is completely unsupported in every regard. Actions will speak louder than words if they say things like “support will be available” and then nothing is done to rectify an issue that many people are seeking support on. I don’t know the rules on continuing to sell buggy content so can’t comment on whether they can continue selling a product where a bug makes it unplayable for many users, like the Miles Platting crashes. There is also the support status of the preserved content in TSW2. Surely that has to be supported, as new bugs are certain to appear in that content within TSW2.
     
  14. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    As far as I am concerned, the question in the OP was immediately answered by post #2...... by just saying that TSW 2020 DLC will remain on sale. This is because, on PlayStation, this also means "continues to remain published".

    That largely satisfies me that DTG will be required to make bug fixes (within reason). Of course, this doesn't mean that DTG will try to not address bugs..... but, thankfully, that doesn't actually matter.

    I have heard on the grapevine that anyone that publishes developed content for PlayStation has very probably entered into an agreement with Sony. Such an agrement will probably include a clause like:

    "Publisher’s Additional Quality Assurance Obligations. If SIE becomes aware of any material defect (such materiality to be determined by SIE in its reasonable discretion) with respect to a PlayStation Compatible Product, or if SIE becomes aware of any improper use of the Licensed Trademarks or SIE Materials, then Publisher shall, at no cost to SIE, promptly correct that material defect or improper use, to SIE’s commercially reasonable satisfaction, which may include, in SIE’s reasonable discretion, the recall and re-release of units of an affected PlayStation Compatible Product distributed on physical media, or publication of an update, upgrade or technical fix to an affected PlayStation Compatible Product. If any PlayStation Compatible Product creates any risk of loss or damage to any property or injury to any person, Publisher shall immediately take commercially reasonable steps, at Publisher’s sole liability and expense, to recall and remove that PlayStation Compatible Product from any affected channels of distribution."




    Probably. ;-)
     
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  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    For anyone who has no intention of purchasing TSW 2 in the near future or for someone who buys TSW2020 post August 6th, I certainly think it's important to know exactly what "support will be offered" means.
     
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  16. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Oh..... this could probably be answered with something like the following:

    "PlayStation Compatible Products (apart from the SIE Materials), and any Product Information will (i) be in a commercially acceptable form; (ii) correspond with any written description provided by Publisher to SIE; (iii) be free of unauthorized content (including content that is inconsistent with the age rating applicable to the corresponding PlayStation Compatible Product); (iv) be free of bugs, defects, time bombs or viruses or any content which could disrupt, delay, or destroy the PlayStation Compatible Product, PSN, or a System, or render any of such items less than fully useful"


    Something like that..... Maybe. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  17. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Development covers everything that requires a change to code or design. Support is personal, human assistance with a problem that occurs preventing you from playing.

    Support is ongoing. The is no plan for further development, be that new features or changes to how the routes or locos from the TSW1 era operate.
     
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  18. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    So nothing will be fixed. That's answered my question. Thank you.
     
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  19. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Wasn't this already covered in the Q&A? Forgive the confusion, I didn't get that you wanted a distinction between "support" and "development" otherwise I'd have just repeated the point again.
     
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  20. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Could you imagine if DTG gave away the TSW code as open-source, I reckon the community out there who dabble in UE code would have it miles better than current TSW & TSW2 in no time with many core features we wanted implemented!
     
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  21. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously how those in the industry define "development" and "support" is different to how I as a consumer define them.

    You have now clarified that point, thank you.
     
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  22. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Unreal Engine is free to experiment with. There's nothing to stop you! Go get em, Tiger!

    You can't have the source code though, sorry, it's quite an expensive piece of proprietary software, but I'm sure that a handful of dabblers will have something amazing in a matter of weeks.

    ;)
     
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  23. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response. I have noticed that in TSW 2020, on the Peninsular Corridor DLC, that if I run a service southbound with the F40PH at 06:44 (service 212).... that the passengers at San Francisco will not board the train unless I open the door on the track-side. Opening the platform-side doors does not induce the passengers to board, and I have no way of determining whether they have an up-to-date track competence certificate, and can safely board via the track.

    Setting aside that this "bug" would have been found within the first 30 seconds of testing this module, had such testing taken place...... can you please advise whether this "bug" (having to open the wrong doors) is:

    - a feature that will no longer be developed after 6th August 2020 into a feature where the passengers will load on the correct side;

    or


    - a "bug" that will be fixed after 6th August 2020, if reported as a bug after 6th August 2020, using your customer support tools....?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  24. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I think the distinction DTG Protagonist is making is that if somebody has bought a DLC and can't get it to play, then DTG will attempt to help the user get it working. But in terms of bugs like for example, red signals not going green on certain services or getting the Class 20 working on East Coastway etc then that won't be fixed. I would imagine that almost all of the bugs in existing TSW2020 DLC has been discovered anyway and will either be fixed by 6th August or they wont and will stay 'as is' for eternity.
     
  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    A Class 20 on ECR would be a new feature. That would need a redesign - I understand this sort of new feature request won't be acted on.

    However, broken signalling (if it is indeed broken) would be a bug. I expect these sorts of bugs to be fixed, if they are out of spec, and if the product is still being sold.

    It is not clear to me that anyone has explicitly said that bugs will not be fixed, either in the TSW2 Q&A stream, or in this thread. I really need it to be explicitly stated. So does everyone else - people need to know what the bug reporting process will be, or even if there will be a bug reporting process at all.

    If there is no intention to fix defects with the software that render it "less than fully useful", then we should just be told. And if Sony is okay with that, then that's fabulous.

     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  26. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Fully get that.

    If you've just bought it, contact support by submitting a ticket.

    From personal experience, you have a 1 in 3 chance of them actually acknowledging your tickets, not resolving just acknowledging them. They tell you to reboot your computer, if that doesn't work uninstall and reinstall. If it works great, if not then either live with it or try and get a refund.

    Wonder if they will state on the relevant stores after 6th August that TSW 2020 is no longer under "development" and is therefore being sold on an "as is" basis.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  27. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think that will be something to look out for..... ;-)

    I suspect that it won't happen, but it depends what they have agreed with their platform partners..... As far as I am concerned, if Sony is completely happy with continued publication of defective software through their channels, with no intention to render it functional, then so am I..... ;-)

    I am happy to go with whatever Sony expects.
     
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  28. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Guest

    to sum it up for you in easy, short to read post:

    TSW2020 is dead, gone, RIP, no future.
     
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  29. Toddy65997

    Toddy65997 New Member

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    So if I understand this correctly, we pay a great deal of money for a product ( that as a hobby we love to play ) that is supposed to work correctly from the outset but is faulty won't be fixed wether we like it or not. I have invested hundreds of pounds in your TSW 2020 as I play it on both a PS4 Pro and an xBox one X and just assumed that any bugs would be sorted eventually because we have paid our money and have put our trust in DTG and now expect us to buy TSW 2 with its bells and whistles (forgive the pun). I normally purchase releases as soon as they are released but I am going to wait and see how things progress with both 2020 and version 2. I will not be spending any more of my HARD EARNED cash on a DTG product until I see some progress with 2020.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  30. Toddy65997

    Toddy65997 New Member

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    Are you going to buy TSW 2 though?
     
  31. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I'll hold fire on buying it until DTG has released further info and clarification.
    More live streams are coming... The last stream cleared up some points for me (I thought they did a good job actually) but we will know more in the coming weeks.
     
  32. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    They did a good job of clarifying things, however they have made some very anti customer focused decisions.
     
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  33. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    You are probably right... and I suspect they are well aware that announcing TSW2 and what that entails was going to cause some feathers to be ruffled.
    Having said that they will now be discussing what 'damage limitation' action if any could be introduced...
     
  34. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    If any of the directors or managers are reading this. Here's some simple damage limitation:

    - Say you'll fix bugs for TSW20. Only fix a handful of bugs at a time, but still looks like you're supporting your existing products.

    - Make your existing products compatible with the new features. You could even sell them as upgrade packages with some new scenarios. Easy money as you don't have to start from scratch.

    If you want more of my great ideas, you're always welcome to send me an offer of employment via PM.
     
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  35. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    This is the easiest thing to do, as it is inevitable that they will have to do this anyway - it will be required.

    I can understand their position. They appear to have adopted an approach that will require them to fix and maintain two sets of TSW 2020 DLC, for as long as their customers are buying TSW 2020 DLC for use with an existing installation. It's viciously complex to do that, but this is what they have appear to have chosen. In the meantime, you are being dissuaded from reporting bugs by:

    - vague statements about not "developing" TSW 2020 any further (and allowing you to think that this includes bugs); and,
    - encouraging you to seek resolution without submitting a support ticket:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/reporting-a-technical-issue.23564/

    At time of writing, the above thread actually says: "If you are having a problem of a technical nature posting in this forum is likely to get you a faster response than waiting for the support team."

    If an explicit statement is made to clarify that there is absolutely no intention to fix bugs with either set of TSW 2020 DLC (the two sets under each of the two UE versions), then that would be very much welcome.... so that people know where they stand - for now.
     
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  36. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Guest

    probably for the Bakerloo line, but ill get it off a code website for £5.99 :cool:
     
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  37. Toddy65997

    Toddy65997 New Member

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    Could you share the code website please?
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Can we stop discussing piracy on the forum please?
     
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  39. Toddy65997

    Toddy65997 New Member

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    Seriously, what piracy?
     
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You just asked someone for a location where non-legal copies or licenses for software are sold.
     
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  41. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I highly doubt it's piracy, you can download legit games/software codes from legit sites like CD Keys, Green Man Gaming for cheaper than steam store, though may not come with the same refund policy as steam.
     
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  42. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    No he didn't. It appears to me that a lot of these key-sellers are specifically authorised as retail outlets. Some of them might operate at a low margin of profit. They are hardly secret - if DTG had a problem with them, then I am sure a take-down would be required extremely quickly. But I think that you will find that DTG, or DTG's distributor, actually sells the keys to these websites at wholesale prices, for onward sale.

    That said, I suspect that TSW 2 will not be available as a key for £5.99 for quite a while (say about two years),
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough, neither of those websites state where they get their codes from, but they are very proscriptive in their EULA. Hopefully nobody who has bought codes from them is a streamer who is monetised for example, as that breaks both EULAs...
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case then fair enough. I know CDkeys for example used to sell dodgy keys but that was way back when. Hopefully it's changed, but then DTG coudl confirm or deny wholesale and that would end the whole debate I guess (not gonna happen)
     
  45. Toddy65997

    Toddy65997 New Member

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    Excuse me, but that's not what I did at all! I was thinking he meant the likes of cd keys etc who do sell legal software at reduced prices. If I even thought he was talking about illegal sites I would have ignored his post and not replied to it. Please don't just assume that non legal issues are being discussed here without gaining clarification. Thank you.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As above, sites such as CDkeys (who've been known in the past to sell rip off keys) etc don't publish where they get them from, but if you want to pay less then DTG charge that's your call, and if DTG want to allow such discussion on their forum, that's THEIR call to make, certainly it's not yours
     
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  47. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    ... or .......... yours.
     
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, I believe I said theirs... and I believe my sugar levels have bombed...:|
     
  49. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Then get yourself some C6-H12-O6, and don't confuse it with the C21-H23-N-O5 again......
     
  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not done it before for it to count as again :)
     

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