Bakerloo Line Pre And Post Stream Views

Ahead of some first proper gameplay later today, what are you most looking forward to seeing? What features or scenary in particular are you going to be paying extra attention to? What other expectations do you have?

And when you've watched the gameplay, what are your first impressions? Baring in mind it'll be a development build and not the final product, what do you think can be improved?

All views and opinions welcomed.

 

If I've understood the previous streams, they have not implemented any approach controlled signalling, which is a bit of a disappointment.

Given that Just Trains have been able to do this in the original TS, it does make a mockery of DTG's claims about TSW2 being the next gen train sim.

 

I would like to see the new physics and wheel slip in action.
I've never been in London, so it will be interesting to have a look at all the stations.

 

I just fear it's going to feel really dead, given what they've said in previous streams in terms of how much AI will actually be operating on the route at any given point and how empty the carriages look in screenshots

 

I'll be paying extra attention to the insides of tunnels. I find the tunnels in LIRR glitch quite a lot, so I'm hoping that's been fixed in TSW 2.

Really disappointed the route doesn't include the famous "Mind the gap" announcements. GWE has station announcements and so do the German routes. Shame they aren't included at launch, but hopefully they will be in the future... I'll be listening out in case anything is mentioned.

Overall the screenshots look exciting so I'm looking forward to tonight's stream and Friday's Q&A.

 

When does the stream start?

 

8pm BST

 

I think for me, it’s the dispatcher clearing signals when your doors shut. For me it just feels a little unrealistic and ruins a little part of the immersion. Would rather have a random delay or something added to replace that. But just my opinion, based on what I’ve seen of the stream so far.

 

Agreed. Normally if stopped at a platform you'd leave the doors open if stuck at a red, then when it turns green close the doors and let her rip!

 

The class 455 sounds killed it a bit for me, I must admit.

 

I think the game "dispatcher" is waiting until you complete the loading/unloading instruction before it assigns you the track for the next station. So it might not be easy to make that change.

 

I must say I'm rather disappointed. I think the scenery generally looks OK, but the platform stop markers and the the car count-up markers are all missing. Also, on the national rail section, the AWS magnets are missing, but I guess those aren't that important since only the overground services would use AWS anyway, so they would be there just for looks.

I noticed that too. To me, the traction sounds on the 1972 mkII stock in TSW2 sound awfully similar to the, in my opinion, rather poor traction sounds that were endlessly recycled on the southern region EMUs in TS1.

Lastly, we already knew that the London Underground signalling wouldn't be prototypical at all, because of the lack of speed controlled signals, from the Q&A last week, but I was surprised to see that the national rail signals don't seem to work properly either. On several occasions on the NR section, Matt received a signal at danger without it being preceded by a single yellow. This can actually happen on the underground section, since not every home signal in London Underground's system is preceded by a repeater, but I don't think this ever occurs on NR signalling. But please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

Watching the Bakerloo cab ride videos on YouTube, I never noticed any yellows.

UPDATE: Actually, there are yellow signals.

 

Good:
- Baked lighting in underground sections look great
- Highly detailed stations
- Detailed and accurate scenery
- Skies and clouds look nice
Bad:
- Pretty mediocre sounds
- Very little to no track clattering sounds
- No passenger interior sounds whatsoever, just like the GWE 166.
- Signalling is far from perfect for the London Underground. In fact it's just recycled National Rail instructions which is wrong.
- Lack of AI services (at launch)

 

Positive thoughts:
- Overall a good rendition of the real world.
- Detailled stations and rolling stock.

Negative thoughts:
- Bland motor sounds.
- No "diamond stopping marks" at the buffer stops, including the two stop lights.
- No blue car markers after the stations.
- No "Limit of shunt" signs, which implies that you probably can't do any shunt scenarios?
- No visible trip cocks at signals
- Its a letdown that you can't enter the front door properly...

But as they said in the stream, this isn't the final version of the game...

 

I'v also done some more digging on youtube to maybe find an example of what I meant about the NR signals and I think I've found one.

In this video at 47:23, the signal is showing a single yellow. The next signal at Harrow and Wealdstone is at danger. In the TSW2 stream this signal was clear, while the next signal at Harrow and Wealdstone was also at danger.

 

Just to make sure that hasn't been misinterpreted, the game is in a state of improvement as we go from build to build in the run up to launch. You shouldn't expect anything substantially different from what you've seen. There won't be any further signage, sound changes (although volume balance is possible) between what we're showing here and launch. There will be anywhere between 5 and 10 new builds before we release, but none of them will have the kind of impact the feedback in this thread indicates they'd like.

What we're showing is what you should expect (minus the tearing - I've not had it here, and heat was possibly an issue today).

[edit - tweaked a typo, no change in meaning]

 

One criticism I do have of the new HUD (which isn't unique to Bakerloo of course); the new accelerometer is not as easy to see as the old one in TSW2020.

ie on gentle acceleration The 'ball' is hard to see in small movements compared to a 'line' which could easily be seen not lining up to the centre which was in TSW2020

 

I have to say, I am pretty disappointed.

Are the headlights going to be improved? The videos I have seen have shown the lights to be far more effective than portrayed on the stream. It just seems like a bit of a cop out to drive through pitch black tunnels. The headlights have been pretty disappointing in TSW.

The short route lengths are a huge cop out too. Why can’t DTG open TSW to other developers to afford them the opportunity to build longer routes. It’s almost like having flight simulator limited to a distance from Manchester to London. You get there in no time at all.

I am thoroughly disappointed with what I’ve seen guys and hope the next build of TSW will progress a lot further than this latest TSW2 version.

 

It seemed very nice from a visual point of view and as general product but I don't know if it will be equally immersive from a train simulation point of view.

Pros:
-Generally a solid work as usual (route, stations details, boundary details like Wembley Stadium)
-PIS (very appreciate feature)
-Skyes (objectively best)

Cons:
-Cab sounds (lack or "flat" exactly like on TSW1)
-Really a new adhesion system(?) (as above)
-Maybe lack in pure train simulation (for people who asking for a total, or more authentic, train simulation)

 

UK train headlights don't do that much irl.

 

The headlights are accurate because apparently Uk train lights are low

 

UK train headlights are not that effective, they aren't supposed to be like full beam on a car down a dark country lane.

My impressions from the stream are that the route and stock look very good quality, I like the rendering of the tunnels and the stations looked convincing.

For me the sounds seemed okay and sound like an underground train, I don't often travel on the underground and don't know the different sounds of the stock, unlike with standard rail stock. The one thing that was a little disappointing I felt though is that I am sure the sound of the wheels over the track joints is a lot more pronounced in reality, often in the underground sections there is quite a pronounced bang as a train approaches, or there certainly used to be, maybe it didn't come across that well on the stream.

I am still disappointed that you can't really wander very far, I wish you could wander onto the road outside the station on the overground stations and get a different view, they have modelled areas outside the station so I can't see the problem in being able to wander that little bit further. I certainly don't expect them to be modelling large parts of central London but it would have been good if you could at least go up to the upstairs booking halls on the underground sections.

The main non-positive note I took away from the stream, and this is purely personal is the choice of route. I still think it is an odd choice, for me I can see it being like East Coastway, looks great and the trains are well modelled but after a few runs up and down then that will be it for a while, I would have preferred to see it as a piece of extra DLC. I think I will be spending far more time on the German route. Still it was apparently one of the most popular choices so who am I to argue.

 

Just my 2 cents, since much that I wanted to point out, has already been said:
the biggest thing missing is the clanking sounds of rails and when passing through junctions in my opinion. The noise of passing through tunnels is also almost non-existent, which is a big immersion killer for me. A shame this hasn't been given more consideration.

 

I caught a bit of it last night. It was standard TSW reaction for me;

Stage 1) “That actually looks pretty good“ quickly followed by...
Stage 2) ....but the sounds that are there aren’t great, and the ones that are missing are really conspicuous by their absence. The world is dead. It’s missing xxx (insert missing features here) etc.

I cannot believe the underground signalling hasn’t been implemented properly. Similarly, no “mind the gap announcements”, the platforms are devoid of passengers at 8 in the morning, there are no stop markers etc etc. Also, less than 50% of the intended services at launch. Then, the bit that really broke my soul, as soon as they exited the underground what do we see? Almost identical skies to TSW2020 and world lighting that is still just plain wrong. That’s not to mention the lighting in the actual underground section. Did anyone from the Dev team ever watch a YouTube video of this train on this line? The tunnels are not brightly lit granted, but they’re not pitch black!

The obvious truth is that the game is STILL nowhere near ready to be released, and there is nothing remotely different between this and it’s predecessor (but we knew that anyway). What DTG should do is delay it’s release, not until some arbitrary date in the future but until it is ready. Until it shows a proper step forward and they can stand by it and say “that is the best we can do”. But they won’t. It will be the same old same old. Management limited dev time resulting in a half-arsed and half finished product. It would be really sad if it wasn’t just so utterly predictable.

ps Protagonist - when they appoint a new CM (which will be a sad day) you should go into politics. Your ability to convey what we’re all thinking whilst not outright saying ‘this is a bit rubbish’ is a breath of fresh air!

 

I have attached a photo of Bakerloo line stock in the tunnels. You can see here, the lights on the real train are far more effective then those on TSW2. Whilst they may not be LED high beams they significantly illuminate the tunnel far more effectively in comparison to TSW.

 

That's beacuse these Youtube Bakerloo training videos from Soi Buakhao, has a second man pointing a big powerful flashlight/torch out of the center window towards the track...

 

This one doesn’t. The lights are none existent in the preview video put out last night. Why isn’t there an option to turn on a torch to see more of the tunnel when learning the new route?

It’s time DTG opened the platform to developers who want to provide higher quality, longer adds ons. The lights are not the only issue, the sounds are not very London Underground. The spawning of passengers on the train was crude and clumsy. The list goes on!

It’s a real shame that they haven’t done the route the justice it deserves. Compare it to the new Flight Simulator and they couldn’t be a clearer difference.

 

It already is open to third party developers. We’ll see how well they do when they release something, if that ever happens.

 

I think a lot of third party developers have less overheads and less stringent deadlines so can probably build longer routes.

Most things are built to a budget, whether it is a car, washing machine or a computer game.

 

I was pleasantly suprised.
It was better than I anticipated.
Loved the overland graphics, though the empty wcml was disappointing.
There will always be compromises which people won’t agree with, but for £20 they’ll never get perfection.

 

You can turn on a torch with L I think if you`re running around.
I´m really interested where this DTG keeps it all closed [edit by Protagonist - language] allways comes from.
TSW is open for third parties, but they cant force external developers to become a third party.
I don't want to fully protect DTG the sounds are not be the best and passangers definitely need a rework which they said they will do, but comparing it to Microsofts new flight Sim is like comparing a Tesla to a bicycle build by a local company from your area.
The budgets arent even comparable.
Unless you want to tell me its super cheap and easy to make a 3d globe from satellite images

 

I think there's some confusion regarding what some people class as third party developers. DTG appear to class other developers as 3rd party, not the wider community in general.

The latter is probably never going to be possible with TSW2. There may be the odd couple of people who figure out how to modify things, but it will never be to the extent of TS1.

 

Comparing Tesla and a bicycle shop is like comparing oranges and cheese. A better analogy would be Ford and Aston Martin. Totally different sizes and budgets that produce products on a totally different scale. It doesn’t mean that the smaller of the two entities uses that as an excuse to produce below par products.

I simply don’t buy this budget excuse. Just because they’re a smaller company doesn’t mean that their products should be incomplete and riddled with problems. That is a company culture problem where ‘not good enough’ is acceptable. The brutal truth is that if they can’t do what they need to do at the £20-£25 price point then charge more! As long as the quality increases as well as the price I doubt very much that many people would be complaining.

 

First and foremost, there is no need to use fowl language. It’s a comparison of where the level of simulator is at.

If there are tools available to external developers, it’s perplexing as to why no other body has created any additional add ons in the TSW history.

I digress, perhaps I expect too much. I for one would pay more for a more fine tuned product and would love train sim to get to the levels of flight sim. But I do think, TSW is crying out for longer routes (having a high speed train on such a short route is mind boggling and just seems a bit odd why you wouldn’t have a longer route, why not extend Paddington to Bristol?) TSW needs more immersive tutorials and lessons. There need to be more scenarios and they need to be a bit more challenging and exciting.

Forgive my ignorance, but how is this update anything other than a slight fine tune, it’s sad to see TSW following the direction of TS but without the DLCs.

I’m not sure it’s the update I was hoping for. It’s just has so much potential but feels as though we are getting the tip of the iceberg.

 

Matt P said in the Bakerloo Q&A a couple of weeks ago that ‘trains clattering over junctions sounds absolutely spot on’ and the flange squeal is ‘ridiculously loud’ and they had chosen not to turn it down. Well I’m not sure where that came from as it certainly wasn’t in the steam last night. I do wonder whether some of the answers in the Q&As have been embellished somewhat to make this sound better than they actually are. I guess we’ll find out for sure next Thursday.

Also why couldn’t they have at least implemented some random ‘Mind the Gap’ announcements at stations? The Köln-Aachen line had random announcements playing at stations in the stream last week. Even GWE had them three years ago. It can’t be that hard and it’s this kind of stuff that breaks immersion.

 

Ford owned Aston Martin until last year. Aston Martin produce far fewer vehicles at a much higher price, with a far smaller workforce, a lot of the process is still hand built as far as I know.

I don't think the same would work with Train Simulators, DTG would probably have to drastically downsize it workforce if it was to sell TSW at £60 with the same content taking far longer to make it!

 

Having watched the Q&A stream I went into last night's stream with little hope, and still managed to be disappointed. The graphics looks really nice but that is the only positive I can take from what I saw. The sounds were sub-par at best, the "Tube" atmosphere was hugely lacking and the whole thing felt like running a train on a normal railway rather than the LU.

If you are going to put a London Underground route into your game, why half-arse it? Just Trains, the Virtual District Line team and TML Studios (World of Subways) have all done amazing jobs with capturing what the Tube is and how it should look/sound/feel. Having played Train Simulator and Train Sim World for years, I cannot come to any other conclusion than DTG just don't care that much. They do a "meh, it's good enough" job and then move onto the next thing. I cant help but look at the features of the new Microsoft Flight Simulator game and think to myself "I really wish they would get into the Train Sim market".

I guess come next Thursday when the game is released and I get to play the Bakerloo for myself I'll be able to make a final conclusion, but when something made in 2020 feels far less complete and FAR less lovingly created than something made in 2011 I have to wonder.

 

Firstly a huge thank you to Matt and Sam for the streams over the past few weeks - not only did I get to see some of the upcoming content, I learnt how to make a good pancake. (Although I have been missing some of Sams passenger announcements).

With regards to the Bakerloo line stream last night - I thought the tunnel lighting was far too dark. If you checkout the screenshots in the articles posted on the Dovetail site, the tunnels are lit better closer to the trains - more 'wall panels' are visible. The stream last night I felt was lacking in that area. I don't know if it was Matts settings on his laptop - or if the screenshot on the article had been (dare I say it) 'enhanced'.

 

Yeah I don't get that one either. Even though other random announcements are there, so why not the "mind the gap" one?

Anyway I kinda liked it overall. Sure the sounds are not the best, but not bad either, I just wish they were a bit louder from inside the train as well. The visual looks great, no complains about that.

Though I still don't understand the decision behind not being able to walk in the tunnels and not being able to open the front cab door. Not like it's something I wanted to do that badly, but the freedom of choice is always great, and people who play the game just for fun would enjoy going in there and getting run over.
Also even though the Underground stock doesn't allow you to leave through the front door, what happens when you use the "Off the Rails" mode thingy and place from example the AC4400CW there, which has openable front doors? What happens when you start the train, walk out to the front and it reaches the tunnel? Or if you just stop in the middle of the tunnel and stand up and walk out?

Anyway in overall I think it's a nice route. Sure some things could've used a bit more work, like many people are complaining about the not 100% true to life signalling and speed limit system. It would be better if those could've been recreated better, but well, it's not that big of a deal I guess, just a bit of a bummer.

 

Ford actually sold Aston in 2007. By and large that’s irrelevant. The point I’m making still stands. On the whole smaller companies don’t hide behind their size to produce below par products. Often small companies produce much higher quality as they have no option. Whatever the size of a company, acceptance of poor quality is down to culture, and the management systems put in place within that company to stamp it out.

I say again that if DTG cannot produce what they need to in the timescales afforded to them at the £20-25 price point then raise the damn price.

If we had spent the last couple of months watching the teasing of a demonstrably better product than TSW1, with fixes and improvements for everything the consumer has been begging for for the last 3 years to be then told it would cost £60 I GUARANTEE that they would be selling more units they are going to. I fear we’re watching, in slow motion, DTG blowing yet another opportunity for a fresh start. I for one don’t think they will get another.

 

I agree wholeheartedly!

It’s just a massive missed opportunity. DTG need to have a larger team on Train Sim development! Granted that incurs higher fees but if the end result is on par with flight sim, increase the fee! I would gladly pay more for a more immersive train simulator. Train Sim World has been around for several years now and just seems to have flat lined. It just feels like V2 is TSW with a few tweaks and three new short routes, it just feels like an underwhelming update.

 

Some people have been mentioning the lighting in the tunnel, the below is taken from the 'Clear To Proceed' Article published a few days ago, obviously the build has been changing significantly recently but I don't know whether this is closer to what we will really get and the 'magic' of streaming somewhat spoiled the tunnel lighting, or the somewhat significantly darker tunnel in the stream is actually what we'll get.



For me the lighting in the tunnels isn't a problem either way, what I do think is an issue is some of the obvious gameplay mechanics that are simply lacking in this 'simulator'. The London Underground signalling and speed limit practices aside, there are certain iconic things about the London Underground that are internationally recognisable, a basic one amongst these is 'mind the gap' and perhaps even the train announcements. From the stream the station announcements sound awfully similar to those that can be found on the GWE route, though in all fairness they were not properly audible in the stream to tell, but if this is the case that's another immersion breaker. Another immersion breaker being simple things like not being able to open cab doors, if you watch videos of drivers getting into the trains at depots they enter via the front door, not from the sides. This is such a simple thing that just feels silly not to have. You cannot really criticise this game for the way it looks, but the sounds and the basic game mechanics really do not live up to other games that are nearly ten years old (World of Subways 3 to be specific). I personally would like to continue supporting DTG, but really this is not of a standard that on the surface requires the purchase of a whole new game (despite the pricing being, I think, fair). It lacks any obvious new gameplay mechanics from a players perspective or any real significant gameplay improvements over TSxxxx to truly entice people back into the series. If DTG had come out with a game that truly was the 'next evolution in train simulation' with gameplay features that could not be found in TSxxxx then perhaps we would be more forgiving as a player base. As of now and seemingly as of TSW2 there are still fewer simulation elements than present in TSxxxx, shorter routes and the physics are only just coming up to par with TSW2. Granted, TSW is far prettier and does have some nifty features that TSxxxx really lacks AND I really hope the roadmap will demonstrate to us that DTG are FINALLY going to resolve some of the simple bug bears of the community going forwards.

Apologies for the length of this post but really these are my thoughts, if anything the Bakerloo Line is almost going to be released in an 'early access' state given the services situation (though I understand very little else is likely to change) and I think those of us that have stuck with TSW thus far would agree that we'd be happy to be patient if we knew what we were being patient for, other than new 'eye candy' and some deeper simulation to the game (if you'll pardon the obvious underground pun).

 

I get where you’re coming from but It’s one third of a box selling for c.£24.
So call it £8‘s worth of software.

What do you honestly expect for that money; the resources of a major software house, for a niche product?
I’m not apologising for DTG but they do have to make commercial compromises.
Seen the prices for the new MSFS & Horizon Zero Dawn?

If enough people could convince them that they’d pay £60 for a single Bakerloo route,
Perhaps they’d take more time and do a better job.

 

Flight simulator is not a single route. You get the every airport on the planet and some high detail airports and aircraft. The comparison between the two was the capability of a simulator based software. TSW is a simulator based software and really needed to up the offerings, even if the price increased.

Simulator fans are a dedicated community and FS shows that people will pay that extra for something special.

There is an awful lot of marketing hype surrounding TSW2, but in comparison to other simulators DTG are decades behind.

I was hoping lots of issues mentioned and the ugly motion blur would be sorted. To sell this as a new product is a little misleading in my opinion. I’d be surprised if the updates warrant this new TSW2. I just wish we had more competition, like flight sim and then developers would be forced to up the offering instead of being complacent accepting they own the monopoly.

 

Who is comparing it to big AAA story based games? That is like comparing a Michelin Star meal with a Big Mac! Those games take huge teams years to make, which is no way comparable to sim games.

Most of the comparisons on here are with either Microsoft making Flight Sim or with Just Trains and TML Studios making other LU routes. Just Trains Metropolitan Line is £30, TML's World of Subways Vol.3 was £30 back in 2011 and both did a FAR better job at conveying the atmosphere of the London Underground. I would happily pay £30 for a version of the Bakerloo that actually feels like the Bakerloo.

I do agree that the price asked for TSW2 is reasonable, but then it should be for a half-arsed representation of the real thing. If it doesn't play like driving a train on the Bakerloo line, then it isn't a true simulator game is it. It's just a game.

 

TRAIN SIM WORLD 2
THE EVOLUTION OF TRAIN SIMULATION*

*BUT PLEASE DON’T LOOK AT THE WHEELS​

 

I agree...

(but if we looked at the wheels in Train Simulator, wheels on TSW 1 and 2 would be an evolution the same. With and without zoom.)

 

Come on now!

Armstrong Powerhouse are tiny by comparison to DTG yet they relentlessly turn out the highest quality content, a large proportion of which is actually making the dross DTG churned out useable. Yes it costs a bit more, but people clearly pay it and they do so because it’s worth it. Isn’t it absolutely amazing how AP manage to get HQ sound recordings for everything that they do, yet the party line on the vast majority of DTG products is ‘we did our best with what we’ve got’. Why is that?!

To excuse DTG’s relentless inability to put out high quality content because they’re not the size of Microsoft is just utterly ridiculous, and not a sensible comparison.

The simple truth is that DTG’s stuff is too cheap and because of that, it simply isn’t good enough quality. Sim gamers want quality and realism. Increasingly DTG are giving us a half-baked game. This was a chance to change tack and they’re blowing it before our eyes. It’s very sad.

 

To hear we did our best with what we’ve got was pretty hard to hear. There is a District Line cab ride video on YouTube where a GoPro camera was fixed to the outside front of the train. The track/train sounds in the video are very good. Surely the same permission given to that YouTuber was available to DTG - especially given the fact they have the licence from TfL.