Might be worth asking Sam on tonight's webcast, about research in general. Certainly teams have gone out in the past to record sounds and take photographs while local sources are also consulted. Don't know enough to give anything specific though.
They kinda do though. They have people who help them out gathering info, taking photographs etc. People who are more ‘local’ to the routes that are being made. A lot of it is to do with the trains that are made, the dedicated folk who take loads of photos, including underneath seats and other minute details, and record videos of doors opening and closing and talk to local railway staff. Matt talks about this kind of thing in the live streams. These are the kind of things, along with the staff going to record sounds from the locos etc, that are more difficult under Covid restrictions. Invaluable resources. Valid reasons to make routes and trains where the resources have already been gathered rather than rely purely on Google maps and Youtube videos, publicly available documentation etc. which they do also use of course.
‘They kinda do though‘ You can believe whatever they tell streams if you want to but you’re ignoring what you see in front of you when you play the Sim. Look at the 377/4 cab in East Coastway. Is that ‘minute detail’? People are just trying to come up with rationale about why a) there’s not more DLC being released b) why DTG isn’t straying far from the US/UK/DE model they’ve always used. It’s not rocket science. DTG bandwidth matches the revenue that they get from the product. The success of the last release in some ways determines the resources for the next release. Yes, people like Matt P. are big railway fans and will tell you how much research they personally do. But what you need to be questioning more is how much of his interest actually turns up in the product. There’s nothing wrong in that - its commercial reality that determines how much detail turns up in the product. The gaming industry is one of the few parts of the economy to have benefited from Coronavirus. Lockdowns and social distancing have helped the industry not hindered it. With the coming winter in both Europe and the US it’s only going to get better for the industry as gaming replaces time and spend for other activities like going to the cinema. As for the sound how do you explain the Bakerloo line? That’s what research and recording gets you?
This is quoting a real 377/4 driver from another topic on this forum. So, yes. I mean, dispatching few people to do few rides and take tons of photo of one of the most prominent EMU in the country they reside in costs them literaly nothing. You're mixing sales with development. Sales have certainly increased, but as a SW dev I have to tell you, that the situation certainly didn't helped development. Especially if we're talking about segment where going out and do research is actually quite important. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impac..._game_industry#Hardware_and_software_releases They stated several times that they did not have private recording sessions for the Bakerloo line. Doing audio recordings in regular operation is tricky, as you get tons of noise (especially if we'ra talking about the london tube), and you do not know/are not in control of other parameters, like throttle.
Yes, they did actually. On one of the streams Matt showed a series of still photos of the team setting up the microphones on the running gear of some of the Peninsula Corridor stock.
I think TS is starting to reach the end of its long lifecycle. DTG should get the original devs (or just do it themselves) to remake most of the routes in TS in TSW. They could give original TS players a 35-40% discount on these routes for TSW. I honestly think this is what DTG should do. TSW has the better graphics/detail and they could have more devs working on TSW (by moving TS devs over to TSW and giving them unreal engine tutorials).
You’re confusing the detail and accuracy of the research with the depth of detail on the models. The development time needed to recreate the minutest of details isn’t there, but that’s not the issue I’be been talking about here, that’s the research that you, on the one hand claim they don’t do, and on the other claim isn’t needed anyway. Everything in the 377 cab is accurately placed and modelled well but not down to individual flecks of dirt. You can make a very detailed but inaccurate model or you can make an accurate but less detailed model. The latter is what is made and the depth and quality of the research is what leads to that accuracy, and that’s what I’m talking about. Some things in TSW are quite detailed in the end product, some things less so, but it’s generally well modelled.
It is interesting that this thread is one of the most active and it isn't really about playing the game! Personally the SimRail looks interesting just because their main selling points are a point-for-point exposition of what TSW players are always asking for: Multiplayer, dynamic weather, steam engines, high speed rail (only just in TSW2), geodatic data. Plus novelties like signaller mode makes it interesting, if it even works half decently, to buy and figure out how they did it. I am a little skeptical given the other Playway games I have: thief simulator, car mechanic simulator, railway station restoration, house flipper; they are all fairly similar and as said a bit shallow once you scratch the surface, they are also completely done on the basis of being a person and not a vehicle, the driving in cms/ts is awful! Compared to attempting to simulate systems via the proprietary simugraph tech it seems likely to be a bit weak. However if they can give the impression of these things working then examining how they did it will be useful should DTG still not be able to do these things in a year's time. The TSW Editor does seem a very sore point, it is really throttling the production of locos and routes in TSW because so few people can do it. I would touch on a comment made earlier about the issues of licencing the (amended) editor for wider consumption. Could it be so restrictive that you pretty much have to be an ex-DTG employee or on a sub-contract to them (2nd party rather than 3rd party) in order to be allowed access to it? This seems more likely than it being so complicated that it is beyond even competant TS devs. Not only can we as regular customers not use it but even actual developers can't just sign an arms length agreement on revenue sharing with DTG and load the software up? Very odd system to me and I tend to agree with those who say the drawback there is potentially bigger than the benefits from amending the engine itself which created the restriction: it gave DTG more capabilities in-house, but locked them in-house. Some interesting background reading on the story of the TSW editing tools: https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/train-sim-world-studio-update https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-december-studio-update.13965/ https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/april-studio-update And then from TSW2 FAQs "The Livery Editor and Scenario Planner are the first step on our journey towards releasing more comprehensive tools. It’s our hope that as many people who want to get creating for Train Sim World 2 will be able to do that, whatever gaming platform they are on. Releasing the full editor on PC is a far more complex process than it was on the original train simulator. To begin with it requires a full download of the Unreal 4 Engine itself and then there are number of other unique plug-ins of our own, such as SimuGraph® and others, that are critical to building both locos and routes. (compare this paragraph to the first studio update above) We know from both closed door testing and working with experienced third-party developers that this isn’t an easy editor to use and until we have resolved these issues, we are not going to release anything more widely." (again this jars a bit with the studio updates) *my interpretation* we won't ever get the full editor as shown in the early studio updates, they will break out the functionality piecemeal as far sa they can and the livery editor and scenario editor may be followed by other small editors over time. Probably never be able to make rolling stock/locos from scratch or routes. Unclear why, whether it is complex and difficult (TSW2 FAQ) or licencing issues because it is an amended editor instead of a vanilla one.
I have their car mechanic simulator it is fun at first but I get bored after a while and I am a petrol head, then again it doesn't have an Austin Allegro in it! It is a shame their isn't more driving on car mechanic simulator, it would be good if there was a little network of roads, a bit like city car driving. I don't think graphics are a priority generally as long as the sim looks convincing, although whenever I fire up something like TVL on TSW I do remain impressed with the way it looks, and in reality I suppose the better looking it is the more you can get immersed. I don't think I could go back to MSTS days to be honest, I tried it again recently during the lock down and even my favourite routes like the Cambrian 2 routes looked so old. TS1 can look very very lifelike, especially the most recent routes with recently modelled track and good weather and lighting. I think the track makes a big difference in the way the route looks the AP track pack certainly improves a lot of TS1 routes.
‘Especially if we're talking about segment where going out and do research is actually quite important.‘ Keep convincing yourself of that. But it doesn’t make it accurate. Developers I’ve know have found that they’ve got more done in particular working from home without day to day office distractions. Still, if you’re convinced that this is why there haven’t been more or different release you won’t be convinced otherwise. I presume when we finally get back to normal your excuse will be ‘now people aren’t playing games as much there aren’t as many releases’. ‘Doing audio recordings in regular operation is tricky, as you get tons of noise‘ Yes, the tube is noisy, but TSW Bakerloo line isn’t. Perhaps the research showed that it should be quieter?
They have released routes from many different areas and have obviously had to do the research, it is a bit of a coincidence during a global pandemic when a lot of companies work has been curtailed, especially business and work trips that suddenly they are releasing for TSW previously released routes where they presumably have the research material. That suggests to me that it is due to the pandemic and that they aren't lying!
I must admit I recently jumped from ts20 on Xbox with £100mof dlc to ts2 on pc with none. my quick summary is game looks far superior and runs better but I’m aggrieved to buy the old BR stock again, sand patch I’m not fussed about doing 40mph for two hours and bakerloo is like watching someone play the game through a letterbox. Ice is stand out line for me but only so many times I can do same service at different times of day. I look forward to seeing dlc routes as these three haven’t hooked me yet unfortunately
I take it you mean TSW2020 to TSW2? Won't all of your DLC become available on TSW2? I thought all bought TSW DLC will be migrated over to TSW2
So if you buy, for example, Northern Trans-Pennine for TSW on Xbox... it doesn't show in your Steam library on the PC? That's really crappy. I had no idea.. never owned a console since I had an Atari VCS in 1979.
Yep, it is basically the same with all games when it comes to moving from one platform to another. Afaik some MS games are the sole exception, and a single purchase allows you to play on both the Xbox and PC. But only on the windows store, not steam. Hurts the most for DLC heavy games, like TSW.
Surely though if you bought from X-box store then they are getting a cut, if you then move your game to steam, you are asking steam to host something you bought for another platform and they aren't benefitting from it? I assume that is how it works?
Like I said earlier... I've no idea how anything to do with consoles works: I'd rather shove wasps up my arse.
I'm starting to think more and more that TSW is doomed on the PC. During the roadmap livestream a question was asked about getting Steam Workshop support and Sam's answer was "If you can figure out a way to do the same for XBox and PS we'd love to know about it. Until then, no Steam Workshop". This is a horrible attitude to take and shows that Dovetail really don't give a rats ass about the PC market at all. There are myrid multi-platform games out there that offer modding support and Steam Workshop on PC even though obviously consoles can't have it. Plus, there are no niche simulators that I can recall that have been able to survive or thrive long term without an active modding or third party community. The fact that Dovetail seem to think their walled garden approach is going to work on PC is laughable. If they want a long term revenue generator on PC, TSW needs to be opened up to Workshop Support to share scenarios and needs to be accessible to modders. Without that, I can't see the core community that has kept TS going all these years moving over to TSW in enough numbers for it to be successful on the PC.
TBH I understand they do not want to spend a lot the development time to add features that can not work in consoles, but I think they should not make us wait for patches with small fixes just because consoles need 2 weeks to pass their respective approval processes. If you can patch instantly on Steam just do it!
Why not? Other games have features that are PC only. We know the answer... that was a rhetorical question. PC users are in a clear minority for TSW... that's why. Console game.
I don’t understand the whole clarity nonsense. Because PC players already get a slightly different gameplay experience to consoles, be it consist lengths or graphics. So why are DTG so determined to hold back a platform because another one can’t do exactly the same things?
Farming simulator carries mod support Snow runner although delayed uses mod.io for its current pc and soon to be released console mods
It’s simple. If DTG continues to enforce its clarity polices, TSW 2 will never reach its full potential or opportunities thanks to console limitations. I don’t know any other developer or game which has this bizarre policy. It’s nothing new with PC being a more open platform, even console players themselves know what limitations they face in other games for X amount of years. So why intentionally hold back a platform?
I'll just throw in that I have absolutely no issue with DTG pushing TSW for consoles. It makes a ton of sense from a business perspective. However I think they're also forgetting that the PC gamers are the ones who literally made their company what it is and made them profitable. Yet they'll probably sit there at the next board meeting scratching their heads why the TSW PC sales and player numbers are crap.
First SimRail 2021 DevLog: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1422130/announcements/detail/2871565753284967067 New screenshots below:
What is it with train devs and bloom? Once again it looks like a nuke exploded beyond the horizont (first picture), or the bloomy sign on picture 3? I hope they tone it down. Human eyesight does not suffer from the same artifcats as cameras do.
Looks decent. Like I figured from the debut video, visuals will sit somewhere between TS and TSW in terms of fidelity. Pretty much as long as the game runs it's a day 1 purchase for me because of the initial focus on Polish routes. I'm American but lived in Warsaw for 3 years and took the regional Koleje Mazowiecki train daily to get to work in the suburbs.
I’m a console user (PS4 non-pro) at this point... but I used to be a PC user, and I’d be upset about this too. I would rather see DTG build for the PC platform (and all that it can do), and disable only what’s absolutely necessary for console play... as opposed to scaling the game back for consoles, and expecting the PC folks to be happy with the same scaled-back version. This last choice just doesn’t make any sense- just to keep the game ‘consistent’ across all platforms. (Now if I’m missing something DTG- and I certainly could be- please chime in here and clarify this for everyone’s benefit)
And how many months/years have you been playing the game to come out with such a sweeping statement. TS still has longevity and will be around forever and has been for the 13 years since Kuju Rail Simulator was released, it'll keep me entertained until I die, and that's all that matters to me.......period. And the approx. $10,000 of DLC I have purchased over time will never all be replicated by TSW, so, you'll all lose out waiting and waiting and waiting.
TS1 won’t die anytime soon thanks to the community and third parties. There is a big gaping hole in TSW/2 and that is the ability for the community to make any add-ons, repaints or routes for it. Until community made content is possible in TSW, I don’t think it’ll ever be as popular for the PC audience.
Interesting to see someone new enter the train sim market, way too little info for me to guess how it will turn out, but hope it work out well for them. Actually there's at least a few in the combat flight sim market I'd argue have succeeded with the walled garden approach. IL-2: Great Battles & DCS don't have large modding communities compared to older titles like IL-2 1946, however that hasn't stopped either from being major players in the market. However the key you need in order for the walled garden to succeed is to offer something far better than the more open alternatives. While in DCS you don't have a super large variety of aircraft compared to more open sims, the trade off is that what does exist are some of the most detailed aircraft ever made for a flight simulator. Likewise IL-2: Great Battles while not as detailed as DCS still offers much better flight models, AI, etc. over the older more open IL-2 1946. TSW however isn't the better option than TS Classic in many respects, most notably the smaller route sizes and steam locomotives. In fact I'd say Pro Range engines such as Smokebox's 1800's stock, or the Searchlight Simulations AC4400CW are way better than anything in TSW at the moment. Until the day something in TSW beats those it will probably remain second fiddle to TS Classic in the PC space.
Yea, DCS prides itself on making the most detailed renditions of aircraft ever in a consumer sim, so the point where there is little chance of any freeware coming close to it in quality. DTG...releases trains that use the same engines sounds as others and often don't even function correctly...so...yea. lol
TSW was never meant to replace TS, that's a pretty simple fact as they wouldn't still be supporting TS if that is what it was meant to be. Modding was never going to be as simple as it was in TS, after all, it is a whole new game engine which to my knowledge is not exactly very receptive to modding, as is the trend in modern game engines (I believe for security reasons so can't really be annoyed about that) and of course because it is on console where to my knowledge only a couple of developers have opened things up for modding (Bethesda comes to mind, but that's handled fairly in house). And then, of course, there's the ever-fickle licensing restrictions, which come with their own set of restrictions, I know for example licensing restrictions is part of the reason why certain racing games have become less supportive of mods. If I recall correctly licensing is also the problem for shareable liveries in TSW, however, there are workarounds for that to an extent. At the end of the day, there are a lot of things that people take for granted in Train Simulator that are not nearly as simple to do, if possible with the TSW platform (and let's be honest, if there would be no real point making a whole new train sim title if they were going to use the fairly ancient tech from TS, so again can't really complain there). The narrative that DTG has given up on the PC crowd with TSW is silly at best. Furthermore, belittling TSW for being a 'console game' and peddling the idea that, that is holding back the game is rude at best, an insult to the developers and honestly a bit selfish. That kind of talk is really not necessary. As a last point for now, although TS indisputably has more PC players, I think it more interesting not to look at the difference in total numbers but to see how many new players are choosing which game, I think that may be the more relevant question here. I feel for new players, TS doesn't offer much more that would be tempting.
they lied to us. Matt explicitly said that the console version would never hold back the PC version - and now we cant have workshop support because they cant get it on console, who knows what else we cant get because of this silly idea they have. Infact I even remember Matt having a conversation on the discord in which he said "they wont cut content, if it wont work on consoles PC will still get it" - sweet little lies Matthew. Matt lied. DTG lied, thats the issue.
Alot was promised for TSW, like a full editor and multiplayer, oh and "detail so good you could reach out and think youre touching it" - FEEL THE DETAIL which promptly disappeared from marketing after it became a meme. they even called it the "next gen" of train simulation - so yeah in short, find me a promise that means something. honestly cant tell what is next gen about it. Lighting is worse than in most TS routes, loco models are fair enough good, but then they re-use lots of major assets. Brighton and Paddington are TS models, the UK transit van is a Kuju asset from 2007, the skybox is from what appears to be 2012. sounds are beyond laughable on 80% locos. Texturing is amateur at best and in some cases - such as trackside/brickwalls TS is better. smoke/clag = TS is better. I am a big fan of most of the loco models - class 37 aside, but theyre really let down by texturing. Why is everything so clean and shiny. not sure what is next gen.
I don't think though as both a pc player and console player that would be fair to consoles. I like that they're trying to equal things out. you can't just ingore console players as well as it's opened up a new market for them
Im all for you having the game, but it should be "if consoles cant run X feature they dont get it, PC does" - parity is only good for the slowest/bottom player. why should it be fair? how do you innovate if youre restricted by the bottom rung. from what I can see consoles are already maxing out in TSW - so what, is this it, no more innovation or features because "wah equality and fairness"
This is only something DTG has done, by choice, For many years, several games across all genres have had different and/or exclusive features for PC only and are generally more open. No one complained, no one moaned. They accepted it. So consoles aren’t actually limiting potential, it’s DTG doing this. DTG is just trying to fix a situation which isn’t broken in the first place. So they’re causing more issue than it actually fixes.
