How Does Dtg Propose To Get Over The ‘clarity’ Hurdle?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is in response to several times in the past where developers stopped producing content because "the community" hounded them about release dates and features about products which were only ever in development.

    Yes DTG have put out a few bloopers (e word included), but the community have a lot to answer for in why DTG don't say too much too
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There roadmap isn't very transparent as well espically when it comes to bugs. They haven't thought of that as well
     
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  3. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    For me, it also looks more like an excuse than a real explanation. Recently. At first, I was fooled.
     
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It does look like an excuse to not work on some issues of the game. I agree
     
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  5. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Bugs have indeed been mentioned on the roadmap.
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But having to wait two weeks to see what bugs are being addressed is too long. I feel like there should be a roadmap for bugs only and it should be released weekly, not two weeks
     
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  7. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Remember that not a single reskin in TS is hosted by DTG itself (unless you consider UKTS to be part of it). Because this way of doing things is simply impossible on consoles - well, it might have been on the PS3 - so for consoles they'd have to have it in-game. While I think DTG's legal team are a bit too strict, considering other games host unlicensed liveries in the game itself, I understand that there are legal challenges with doing this. That's why there is no way to distribute liveries in TSW , except on PC, where they unofficially are.
     
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  8. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right about third-party hosting being the reason reskins are allowed in TS20XX. I don't think it's as simple as DTG's lawyers being too strict, though, when it comes to TSW2.

    Firstly, we have no idea how the existing licensing agreements work. We assume that because DTG has a partucular license in TS20XX, that it also applies to TSW2, which may (or may not) be the case. We also assume that they're blanket licenses (e.g. DTG can release any and all London Underground they want)- maybe that's true, but maybe LU insist on licensing each product individually? We just don't know.
    Finally, there are presumably ongoing negotiations to renew existing licenses, and acquire new ones happening all the time. If a license-holder sees DTG appearing to promote what, from their perspective, is unauthorized use of their brand, it could complicate, or even completely derail (sorry) those negotiations. Obviously that could have significant financial implications for DTG.

    tl;dr- even putting aside the issue of being sued, there are other things DTG had to consider wrt livery sharing.
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps their lawyers are being too strict especially if in ts2021 you can pretty much share anything you want and dtg can get away with allowing that. It's a shame console players won't be able to share liveries though
     
  10. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the straight forward information, Protagonist.

    Are there any plans or the possibility of future plans for something like a physics editor of the users owned rolling stock to be released?
    What I mean by a physics editor would be something analogous to how the repaint editor modifies/adds to files on top of the UE4 engine (rather than letting the user control the UE4 editor directly) but with SimuGraph? Since a locomotives physics don't fall under (at least I can't imagine they would) any sort of license the legal issue should not apply.

    This would allow users to modify physics they don't agree with (but still leaving the base game intact) or even fix bugs.
     
  11. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's possible, because it would allow people access to the system in such a way that they could presumably reverse engineer it and design a competing product using DTG's proprietary engine.

    I think that's an unwritten part of why the editor couldn't be public. In order for third-party developers to create locomotives, freeware or otherwise, they would have to be able to access and learn SimuGraph. So it's better to share it only with select companies that they know to be reliable and not leak any of DTG's trade secrets.
     
  12. ffabio89

    ffabio89 Active Member

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    [QUOTE = "DTG Protagonist, post: 189218, member: 18967"] 1. Vedi "Roadmap"
    2. Non ci sarà mai un editore. Mai. Nessun editore. Mai. No. Editore. Nessun editore. No.

    Non mi scuso per l'articolo 2 perché è già stato affermato. Molto e sei abbastanza attivo nella comunità per saperlo già.

    Non ci sarà un editor pubblico. [/ QUOTE]
    E al programma partner?
    How to partecipate?
     
  13. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    There is a lot of debate in this topic about the presumed uselessness of TSW2 features. One the things I learned form marketing is that you never should mix up your private opinion with the opinions of all customers.If you don't like journeys, you cannot claim this is a bad feature. Other player may like it. You may detest mastery, but DTG sent out q questionnaire some time ago and asked people. They measure how much things are actually used, so you cannot say Mastery is no good because you don't like it.
    As for, is TSW a console game? Apparently quite a lot of people enjoy playing it at a console. In fact, this is the only option if you cannot afford a top level gaming PC.

    Let us embrace the console players. They help a lot in fund raising to make new content possible and to make it possible to improve the game. It has its price, as PC players we may miss some wonderful features. Hopefully there will be at least a good scenario editor some day and we still can hack the game ... In ToolkitForTSW you can now get a report on the internals of a user created scenario. I think I no also can recover service mode timetables from the game data. So we are less dependent on DTG than we may think. The bad news is that this will not help the console players.
     
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  14. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    A couple more to follow-up...

    Will there ever be a physics editor? The roadmap is an opportunity to avoid difficult questions? It's not very transparent?

    I'm going to tackle these 3 in 1.

    The whole reason the question of the editor is such a hot-button topic is because it had been explicitly mentioned as something that was coming to the game (much like multiplayer) but it was done with no clear plan to make it happen. This was an aspiration spoken of with such a high level of confidence that players treated it as a promise. For all intents and purposes that's exactly what it was.

    The roadmap allows us to give you clarity on what to expect. The whole "if it's not on the roadmap..." line exists to try and guide your expectations. If you don't see something on the roadmap, assume it isn't going to happen. When it does appear on the roadmap you can have a high level of confidence that it is going to happen. We're trying to remove as much assumption from our historically murky development process as possible.

    "But, the bugs...."

    Yes, we'll be adding more to the roadmap as time goes on. Which ones? No idea. Let's face the reality though, anyone who plays the game regularly knows of at least one or two oddities that still exist despite having been around for ages. Until we know they're being fixed, assume they're not.

    So, a physics editor. It's not on the roadmap. Will it be in the future? We don't know yet. We will be doing more with the two tools we've released so far. We'll also be adding further, equally limited, tools but I couldn't tell you when or what they are. For the sake of your own sanity, until you see something of that kind on the roadmap... you get the idea.

    Yes, this gives us an easy "out" when it comes to committing to something, but it also gives us concrete commitments. We either deliver what's on the roadmap or are forced to explain why it doesn't happen. Historically, any commitments we've been perceived to have made haven't always panned out so well in reality, so this is us putting our neck on the line with what we're actually doing.
     
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  15. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I think that this is part of the issue though. Historically DTG have released products with bugs, and never attempted to fix them. This has included major bugs, but also minor and fairly simple stuff that could be corrected in minutes (typos, descriptions being wrong etc).

    The anger stems from the fact we're assuming they won't be fixed, and being continuously told "assume they're not" is actually against what every other company tells their customers. It does set expectations, it sets the expectation that DTG doesn't care about quality nor about their customers. I can't believe for one second that this is what you as a company want your player base to believe.

    We're all aware that you can't fix every bug overnight (and are unlikely to be able to fix every bug at any point), because that would be unrealistic. However the current roadmap attempt is a bit underwhelming.

    For me, there's two issues with DTGs approach. Firstly there's countless threads on bugs where no response from DTG is given. We don't even know if you've seen or recorded the issue.

    The second issue is the fact there's now so many bugs, that the roadmap approach doesn't cut it. Either a full list of all known bugs is shared (and this might actually reduce the number of duplicate bug threads and tickets), or a much longer list of what bugs you actually want to resolve. I'm sure people would be more tolerant of issues if they knew they'd be worked on (even if it's not immediately). I get frustrated when I find immersion breaking bugs, due to the fact that I have this expectation that it'll never be fixed. I don't have this issue with a lot of other games I play, as a result of the fact I know the bug will be resolved (or at least they'll try).
     
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  16. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    We've covered the reason for not publishing a list a few times now, but in case you missed it, we have two major reasons for not listing out every issue that's been reported.

    The first is that we need the duplication. If one person reports a problem it does not indicate the same level of importance as if 100 people report it. If we're working to make the most of the resources we have, we want to target the issues that have the greatest impact. Do we want to fix everything? Of course we do, but it's not possible. Moreover, if we said we'd fix everything nobody would believe us. The track record we have speaks for itself and making more hollow promises won't do anything to reverse the perception people already have.

    The second is a twofold of setting expectations. If we were to list every glitch, inconsistency, nuanced area of grievance or actual bug in one place, regardless of what caveats we put in place we're setting an easily misinterpreted expectation that they'll all be resolved. And they won't. It also draws into stark relief issues that you personally may not have experienced; if you haven't had your enjoyment of the game disrupted by an issue somewhere, that issue for you does not exist.

    Yes, it's unconventional to be honest about what is achievable, but that's what we're doing. Previously you might have received some non-committal language about issues that had been reported, and then nothing was done. Now, we're showing you exactly what is being worked on. It'll never be enough, but you aren't being left with the anticipation that resolutions are inbound when they're not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  17. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Certain statements like this should be pinned, and there would be fewer problems. Not everyone watches DTG streams on YouTube.
    But well answered, sir :D
     
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  18. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Although you're actually reducing the duplicated threads yourself. By not engaging on a lot of threads, it's actually encouraging people to not bother to report stuff.
     
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  19. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Roadmap in my humble opinion is just a one more place for marketing purposes. What we need is straight communication about issues, but also about the features that someone wants in the game. This does not have to be a close list. Just make it so that the community can contribute to that. So place checkmarks for every issue. In that way you would have a clear picture of how many thinks that one is of importance.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    What does this mean. That someone from DTG says "we now acknowledge this issue"?

    Minefield. Once they acknowledge it some people will expect that it's in the roadmap and being worked on

    They can do that by seeing the responses to posts on here and their other communication channels.
     
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  21. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    About straight communication I mean not to hide behind the issues and all the proposals for the new features, but to step up and aknowledge them. Not to pretend that there are not many by listing a few on roadmap. So because the roadmap is something which tells us what is that we are working on. Much better would be to compile a list of all the raised issues and all the requested features. In that way it would be clear that you care about the community and that you want it to stick with you and that you want to listen and hear things. Like this everything seems so foggy that we cannot see your real intentions.
     
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  22. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    The forums already do this. The forums are setup and maintained by DTG at their own cost, there are opportunities both to submit issues and suggestions. What is it you think this list you propose would do that the technical report and suggestion forums don't?
     
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  23. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if that would be DTGs question as well? I think that they understand the importance of being open, and that will recognize the importance of that. Issues and features on the threads get lost and buried faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
     
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  24. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    - Reply to bug reports, acknowledge the issues.
    - Action the bug reports. Fix more than ten bugs a month (as that's what they've achieved so far). Explain that they will actually be working on stuff as opposed to the "It's not on the roadmap..."
    - Post updates in a clear and consistent fashion. Sometimes they're here, sometimes on dovetail live, sometimes on Kayako, sometimes on streams. It's actually really hard to keep up to date with everything as it's so scattered. This is a massive niggle to me, why should I have to comb the internet to keep up? Use one place and stick to it. Supplement with the other medias, but make sure that the information is posted back to their main place.
    - Actually try and be positive about their product. At the moment it almost seems negative and the fact they don't want to make things work.

    They're simple things that can easily be done if they wanted.
     
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  25. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Agree.
    Sometimes I'd like to hear why something is missing. No, because no - it doesn't get to me.
    It is fine :)

    PS Maybe it goes to me, but not necessarily to my money :D :D
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They do, when a ticket is submitted. On the forums they may not reply to every post, but then the posts often descend into mudfights anyway
    So now you want to tell them how complex the issues are as well? That hardly seems fair.
    They've said if it's on the roadmap it's being worked on. That seems to be a lack of understanding on your part rather than theirs
    The ONLY update that is relevant is the roadmap... all the others are not worth the pixels... Admittedly DTG should be only putting out official info on one channel or making it policy to blanket all, but basically "roadmap is king"
    THEY are generally positive, I think what you mean is you want assurance that YOUR issues are being solved so it will run as YOU expect it to. That's not the same thing.

    Such as?
     
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  27. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    There is no editor on the roadmap as we know. Now, just tell me, why. Because of consoles? Such as that why.
    It is not difficult to find (much) more examples.
    It is not on the roadmap, that's not enough for me.

    UPDATE

    Or where is why the save function has not worked properly for several years? Because of the fact that it is not on the Roadmap? THE REAL Explanation is missing.
     
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  28. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Very few threads descend into mudfights, and I've seen a number of normal threads be ignored (like the TS Met line, which took two months to get a response on an otherwise polite thread).

    There are quite literally hundreds of bugs in the game. Ten fixes a month is only a scratch on the surface. I don't doubt that they're trying as hard as possible, but more resources are obviously needed.

    Yes, the roadmap states what is being worked on at current. However I'm also sure they have a list of what they'll be resolving next. That information can be shared, and will likely improve relations between DTG and some of their upset customer base.

    The roadmap shows upcoming things, but it doesn't show even half the information that DTG give out in streams, forums, discord etc. One channel would significantly help this. Just post everything on the forum, or live, or on the roadmap if so be it. Just some place we can easily find everything.

    Nope, not what I mean at all. Quite often the message is "don't like it, don't buy it" etc. There doesn't seem to be the push to encourage people to buy or play the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  29. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes king of marketing.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    The king is naked. But it's also cool!
     
  31. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I really don't follow how the roadmap is marketing?
     
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  32. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Don't buy other games because we'll be releasing "ten of your favorite routes in a moment".
    Publishing plans have always been marketing. But not only. It is true. We appreciate DTG's efforts!

    And all the hype around it. It's also marketing. Very effective :D
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many of those criticising the roadmap as marketing were previously the most vocal criticising DTG for not being transparent and not informing the community what they were doing, now they are, it is DTG just marketing!

    Of course roadmaps can be used as marketing tools but that is a side element of what they are intended for.
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Then it has to be the craziest marketting ever. Don't buy other games because we're still fixing bugs in stuff we're bringing over from the old game whilst still developing stuff (probably bugged) for the new game!

    I don't see the roadmap as marketing, I see it as a statement of intent from DTG to be open about what their devs are doing to forward the progress of the game. If it's on the roadmap we know it's being worked on. Given they don't delete the old ones (yet) we can see what's moving, what's new and so far nothing's moved back up the chain
     
  35. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    From my 'short'... professional experience I will tell you: this is marketing. Far from madness. Pretty standard.

    Also effective. Used literally in every industry. Eg cheap canteen and menu for the next week. Is it wrong? No. But this is marketing too.
    By the way, it is often useful commercial information or other altruism :)

    The menu in such a pub is our Roadmap. The dishes are not always tasty.
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I see a few a week
    That's not how development works... We don't know how many devs they have working on what but I'm pretty sure DTG (ie the management) have the majority of devs working on new stuff (ie the DTG flywheel) rather than bugfixes. So this goes back to do you want everything fixed and no new content?
    Which isn't relevant because it's not being worked on. I'm sure they have a wishlist of new routes and features that they shouldn't be putting out either
    Oh, agreed.
    I actually agree with that statement. If something isn't to your liking, don't spend money on it, voice your opinion and then it'll either improve or it won't. Chucking good money after bad isn't something I would ever endorse. Everyone here should know by now what DTG will do, so I don't see constantly expecting more to be happening to be productive.
     
  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They've now stated that as the reason. Because of consoles. Then people want to know why they didn't say that three years ago. Then they want to know why Matt made a video featuring the editor "when they knew they'd never release it", then it descends into a bunfight...
    Everyone who's been paying attention for the last two years knows that TSW has become a multi-platform game and unless it works everywhere, it won't be released anywhere, so the people who keep going on about the editor have been kidding themselves that whole time.

    This has been an issue for a long time, and I haven't seen a specific post or question on it answered by DTG so agree with you on this. Is it a known issue, and is it something that they can deal with
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah OK. Then I would say they should remove it.
     
  39. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    It just doesn't bother me. Disinformation - a little more.
    Besides, we have to understand the idea of doing business for profit, in which such marketing certainly helps :)
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    How is it disinformation?
     
  41. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    You have to ask DTG, I think :)
    Saying A then doing B is disinformation.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who made the claim!

    The roadmap is what they are doing or planning to do, where is the disinformation there?
     
  43. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    And where I wrote it is about a roadmap? I only wrote: I don't like disinformation.
     
  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Okay my mistake, although you had been discussing the roadmap so it was a reasonable assumption!

    The roadmap should put an end to the "disinformation" anyway and the editor is in the past.
     
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  45. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think this has very little to do with the roadmap itself as a way of setting expectations and informing the community of what's being worked on and a LOT MORE to do with some folks in this thread not liking the answer being given by the roadmap.

    As in, there is this bug/feature I really care about, and when I ask if it's being worked on I'm told it's not on the roadmap. This means....no it's not being planned or worked on. Not that it never will be, but it isn't now or the immediate future. And that pisses those folks off. They then want to know WHY their pet bug or feature isn't as much of a priority for DTG as it is for them.

    Regardless of whether there is a roadmap or if Sam personally replies with Yes and No to every question about bugs and features being worked on, the exact same people are going to be upset for the exact same reason. Because, again, the real issue for them isn't the METHOD of the answer being given, it's the answer itself that they aren't happy with.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This...

    And this...
     
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  47. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    And this: I love roadmap's answers but don't like it if the roadmap is the only answer.

    That's literally the word I mean - not the content of the publication. It is already becoming a meme :D :D :D

    - Has anyone seen my cat?
    - And he's not on the Roadmap?

    Yeah, sure :D Will check.
    I require more and that's it. The roadmap itself is cool.
     
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  48. BigH

    BigH Active Member

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    User Created Content on Consoles is possible.

    The Sims 4 has curated User Created Content in some kind of Shop (no paid content) in game. It´s possible to upload content straight away. I don´t think it is tested by Sony or Microsoft, but monitored by EA for copyright infringement and so on.
    Planet Coaster will have an in game Frontier Workshop because Steam Workshop obviously doesn´t work. We will yet have to see what is posssible and what not.
    Forza Motorsport let´s users share car liveries. Microsoft must have a system to prevent copyright issues.
    Dreams let´s users share complete games created in the software. People created old Nintendo games and they got taken down by a moderator.
    Little Big Planet 1,2 and 3 let users share levels and assets.

    Obviously all these games run on propietary in-house engines which might make things much easier than with, for example, Unreal Engine, but User Created Content on Consoles is possible. I know it won´t happen in TSW for reasons, but PC Players should not think they miss out on something because of consoles. We´re in the same boat.
     
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  49. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Microsoft is 140Bln corporation, and the Forza franchize is selling over 10milions of copies each instalment (that's a lot of exposure for your brand). That's a totally diferrent negotiating position that Dovetial with some 150 employees has.

    Another point is that the automobile industry has a long standing relationship with gaming, and the companies have better understatement of how gaming operates (like having cars crashing and doing illegal stuff doesn't shine a bad light on the brand).

    I would imagine that working with railway companies, that have very little to no experience in presenting their brand this way, is a totally different beast. That is without considering issues that these companies are often state owned and operate under stricter rules about what they can and cannot allow.

    Pavel Šebor from SCS has also few interesting interviews on this topic, about how unapproachable truck companies are, how much back and forth they have before having a product finally licensed (anyone remember how long the initial Volvo for ATS took), and how much having fake truck brands hurt them in initial negotiations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  50. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    definitely not true - the way Ferrari in particular hunt modding teams is something to behold. they'd take your granny to court and do it with a smirk over even making something vaguely italian sounding.
     

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