Thanks for posting this explanation. Now we can refer all the people who say using air brakes constantly is the right way to this . Feels smugly vindicated and wanders off for a beer... Paul
I don't think anyone has had to drive this train IRL to realise that 50 tonnes of carriages on a 6% gradient is pushing, and pushing hard. Let's say for example that we drop the train on a descent of that gradient, for example at 80 km/h. And we only act on the dynamic brake by pushing it to its maximum power. This obviously causes an abrupt deceleration and remember that the dynamic brake only has an effect on the locomotive. So how is it possible that the weight of the wagons does not influence the locomotive in any way? Of course, this could not be done. If such a deceleration were necessary, the air brakes, which act on the whole train,locomotive and coaches, would also have to be used. Well, before the update this was very well simulated, you could really feel the wagons coming at you and pushing you. Now absolutely nothing happens, you can do anything with the brakes because it is practically impossible for the train to derail. Maybe there was something wrong before, I'm not saying that there wasn't. But if you were careful it was difficult to derail, neither I nor many others who have posted on the forum have had any problems in this respect. But what is very clear to me is that now we have gone to the other extreme, all the physics that the weight of the carriages should cause in the train has been eliminated. I get the impression that you DTG have told Rivet to do this. I don't blame them, they want a game for everyone and if it has to be simplified because many have complained about the derailments, they are going to do it. Reading Jasper's statements I think they tried to make it realistic and challenging. And possibly it had to be tweaked, because it was not well adjusted. But I don't think it was necessary to make it so easy. For me they've certainly taken all the fun out of it. The climb is not a challenge at all, it's just putting the speed control on, the nice thing was the challenge of the descent, something that unfortunately they have stolen from us. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Going by your logic, the train should also derail when the locomotive is pushing it uphill from behind, as it would be the same amount of forces, simply the other way around. Do you really think in real life they use the air brakes all the way down?
Either I have not explained myself or you have not understood me. What I am saying is that if it were to decelerate sharply, it could not do so with the dynamic brake alone, because the weight of the coaches would continue with their inertia and cause it to derail. But I have given this extreme case only as an example to show that after the upgrade, acting in such a reckless way is of no consequence. Of course you can and should go down with very little use of the air brakes. Because that's what the dynamic brake is for.
How much does your car weigh? Do one thing, hitch up a trailer of the same weight, but don't connect the brake socket to it. Now get in the car and drive down a 6% ramp at 80 km/h and brake. Then come here and explain to me about the paper dolls.
You certainly can't compare the puny little hydraulic brakes on a car! When we are talking about trains, no, 50 tons might as well be a Thomas the Tank Engine train. That's half as much as one loaded coal hopper, which often are made up in trains of 100-120 cars. Now THAT is weight, by a factor of two orders of magnitude doubled. And while 6% is steep, it is only 3x the gravity vector of a 2% grade, just a third of one order of magnitude. A engine like the Ge 4/4 with 2000 horsepower (and a Godzilla heat exchanger) should be able to toss that little consist like a cow flicking its tail.
I would also chime in to say that the update is fantastic. I was running into derail issues going uphill and also had a feeling excess weight might have been the issue, super happy that's sorted though as other said that seems like something that should get caught in testing. Similarly to other posters I agree the timetable still seems erratic, running at speed limits I fall behind anywhere from 2-8 minutes at various stations. That being said, now that it's functional I have to say the Ge 4/4 is an absolute blast to drive and at this point I would love an extended RhB mainline route out of Chur so I could actually open up the taps and get running a bit faster.
Perhaps the qc team were doing their job and driving correctly... (Grabs hat & whistle and jumps out of moving train)
So I'm assuming IRL on the Arosalinie the train now and then derails randomly when driving below the speed limit ... because that was the behaviour before the patch
Did you not read the bits about the coaches weighing four times as much as they should and the coupler physics acting in the wrong direction? That’s what was causing the issue of the train bouncing backwards and forwards too much and it falling off the track. You may have enjoyed the challenge of driving with the broken physics but you are just as bad as Rivet for trying to justify it by making up things to suit your story. If you watch cab rides of the train driving down the hill there is no wild jerking backwards and forwards like it was in the game, it’s nice and smooth like the game is now. What is different and can also be seen really well in the IoW route is that the TSW track has perfect maintenance with no little deviations in direction in any direction, which would cause more wobbling around in real life but it is worth the attention that with the imperfections of real life the train does not fall off the track. In your posts you talk about the weight of the coaches pushing on the locomotive. This is what happens but it happens through the couplers, which are designed to transfer this force effectively. The train acts as a whole and the locomotive’s dynamic brake acts on the whole train to slow it down, even if the braking force comes from the locomotive’s wheels alone. This is exactly as it is designed to work and is in use throughout the rail industry. It is possible to derail a train of course but not through normal operation with a dynamic brake, which was happening in the game. There are considerable sideways forces acting on a train going round a curve, which occur whichever type of brake you are using and these forces are what is most likely to derail a train. These are probably not simulated correctly, so going far too fast would result in a derailment sooner in real life than in the game but that would never affect your play as you will be sticking to the speed limit, well within the capability of the train, real or simulated, to stay firmly on the track.
Thank you very much for the explanation, you are a real gentleman. Yes, I got used to handling that difficulty and having to be constantly concentrating all the way down made it very immersive for me. Now that I find it so easy, I get quite frustrated because compared to before it has become a very light experience. But if it's now similar to what it's really like IRL, that's all I can say and I'll just have to accept it. By the way and sorry for going off topic, stujoy you who play on ps4 have you noticed the lack of ambient sounds on this route? Because I have not read complaints in this regard and maybe it's just me. I mean the typical sounds you normally hear like birds and other animals, or the water of the river. I also miss the sound of cars in Chur or the murmur of people in the stations (although this sometimes sounds a bit strange if there is nobody there). I sometimes like to get out of the train and walk in the surroundings, but it feels very empty on this route.
I’ll be honest, I’ve not noticed what the ambient sounds are like, I’ve spent most of my time in the cab and my attention has been elsewhere (how it all looks), but I can’t actually recall hearing any while I have been outside. The thing that I noticed the most was the unnatural way the sound of the coaches rattle away as if not affected by the speed of the train, and sound like you are speeding along when you are crawling very slowly. I’ll have a special listen for ambient sounds next time I drive the route and I need to have a wander around on foot in the route soon too, so I’ll hear if it’s quiet then too.
Rivet are still spinning the lies that it was realistic previously and they've just made it more forgiving... This is in their newsletter that was sent around 20 minutes ago.
Same here, didn't really notice any ambient sounds as I was distracted by the fear of derailing. Once that was sorted, the poor sound of the coaches jumped to the spotlight. It really isn't affected by speed, it kinda sucks... Un-effing-believable. Next time I will think three times before buying anything from them. They can't even own up to their own screw up!
Good lord. Maybe dtg need to get involved and tell rivet to be more honest. There's no harm in owning up to your mistakes. If they can't do that then I can't see myself buying products from rivet in the future if this is how they are gonna be
Tbh I do like the arosa line in ts2021. It's pretty fun. I don't have the tsw2 version since it came with an older train. I don't think they should be sacked from ts personally but I do think they need to change how they address their customers on certain things in tsw. It's better to be honest and own up to your mistake instead of lying and potentially making things worse. That's what my parents taught me and surely rivet knows that. I can't see myself buying rivet products if this is how they are gonna be.
They more or less have: Matt's post yesterday describing how the coach and coupler physics were all screwed up really stuck it to them, in the nicest possible way. DTG didn't have to air Rivet's dirty laundry, but.....
This seriously will make me think about future DLCs from Rivet... especially saddening considering they will probably be the ones to make Gotthardbahn somewhere in the future - one of my favourite routes. Seriously this kind of damage "control" is absurd. Glad I skipped Arosa on Day 1. I am super glad they did. Rivet has thrown themselves into this mess, they knew proper brake use derails the train and they rolled with it. Imagine the reception change if they said "we know there's a problem with dynamic brakes, so please use the blended braking, for now, we will fix it soon, pinky promise." Way better than what they did. And I completely understand the DTG side - they're not flawless, but for this absolutely broken mechanic, we could've until now only guessed whether it was Rivet implementation or DTG core causing this. So basically DTG could be blamed because Rivet was playing their blended braking song over and over again.
Wekk, actually, you can't blame Rivet for you denying a existing physical effect, that you can read about in any scientific publication (for example: fh-stralsund) 'In the case of mainline railways, however, another problem requires attention. When the wagon train "runs into" the locomotive at the Zugspitze during downhill travel, high buffer pressures occur and, depending on the lubrication condition, undesirable lateral forces between the buffer surfaces occur on tight bends. One of the very rare mains voltage failures or the occasional pantograph jumping off the catenary can lead to a rapid shutdown of the network brake, which can result in undesirable longitudinal reactions in the train - in extreme cases with a broken coupling or derailment of lighter vehicles. A limitation of the maximum permissible braking force of the dynamic brake in the case of moderate support from the mechanical, compressed air-controlled train brake is necessary. Particular care should be taken in this regard with meter-gauge railways with central buffers and screw couplings in place (e.g. RhB, FO etc.) in order to prevent the front carriages of a train from shifting sideways under strong buffer pressure on winding routes. It is more advantageous to form trains with automatic train / pressure couplings (such as railcar shuttle trains of the FO, Berner Oberland-Bahnen (BOB), Brünig line of the SBB, etc.). A better utilization of the network brake can be achieved with multiple units or multiple unit shuttle trains, which generally consist of a few vehicles and often operate in twin or triple formations with the dynamic brakes being arranged in a distributed fashion. As RhB still relies on the vacuum brakes as the main brake, Rivet hasn't told us anything wrong, so you can't blame them for. 'As the main braking system, the vacuum brake held until today. But it is increasing displaced by the vacuum-controlled air brake, which has long been used in control cars' As the functioning of the GE 4/4 II's predecessor the motorwagon is described as: 'In addition, there is a vacuum line system with associated driver's brake valve installed for the vacuum brake equipment in the trailer. Both systems are in that Senses with each other through a transmission function valve connected that on the Chur-Arosa route when the valley descends the motor vehicle is electric for itself and the attached train by means of the vacuum apparatus can be braked. At If the vacuum is 30 cm or less, the compressed air brake automatically applies of the motor vehicle with in function, and the electric brake is switched off as soon as the cylinder pressure is on 1.5 atm has risen.' it will prove that your argument, that you can't go downhill on vacuums, is wrong. They braked for over 80 years on the Arosa-Line nearly only with the vacuum brake. And they are still using the vacuum brakes, otherwise reports like this won't talk about weak 'brake pads'. Well, actually, it seems, like the shame is on you and not on Rivet.
No, the problem is reading comprehension. The fact that the dynamics shut off after the air system passes X pressure (which used to be the case also on US trains, before the San Bernardino disaster), does NOT imply that the vacuums are left on all the way down the mountain! Again, the result of doing that in real life would be complete brake failure and a runaway train. What your (academic) article is suggesting is that the vacuums should be applied gently when approaching sharp curves, in order to alleviate undesirable tangential forces. Moreover, didn't you read Matt's post yesterday, which revealed that Rivet's physics model at launch was all screwed up? It was in no way "realistic," it was a hash.
I'm not sure? I mean this part you highlighted specifically seems to say that the mechanical brakes should be only used if the dynamic brakes are not enough. The translation is pretty bad, but that's what makes the most sense to me. Then of course it mentions you need to be careful not to derail the train with sudden braking. But it still seems like it says "use dynamic all the time, help with mechanical brake if necessary".
This part also talks about the dynamic brake, implying that the dynamic brake is their main way of cruising downhills. Sorry man, but it's simply physically impossible that they ride the mechanical brakes all the way down. If it was possible, dynamic brakes wouldn't be needed in railways to begin with... Even road car brakes start fading after a few minutes if you overuse them downhills, do you think there is any brake setup in the world that could hold the weight of a train for hours?
Yeh you have a point but it probably would've been better if a rivet representative did it. People make mistakes. It's part of life but there's no need to hide from said mistake
erg73 I’ve had a listen and you are quite right there are no ambient sounds on the route on PS4. I’ve posted a bug report of sorts in the Tech Reports section of the forum. There’s a thread there for xbox too as there are no ambient sounds on that platform either by the looks of things.
Thank you for the confirmation. I thought it was just me, because I haven't seen any reports of this bug. Just on this route I thought it would be lovely to leave the train and walk through this natural environment enjoying the birds singing, the water running through the rivers with the sound of the bell towers of the villages in the background... But on the contrary, it feels desolate. Chur with fog is similar to Silent Hill, there is no one on the street and absolute silence reigns. To make it even scarier there is only the sound of a bus, I thought that suddenly a monster or a zombie nurse would come out.
