Please Postpone Release Of Cathcart Circle Until It Is Finished

Great to hear. Thanks Matt

 

Thanks for the update Matt things are really moving along looking forward to the release.

 

That assumes the unrealistic premise that when a bug is discovered, it's possible to say "that will take X time to fix." Debugging doesn't work that way. Sometimes you find the cause immediately, sometimes it takes literally days. When you do find it, sometimes it's a matter of replacing one line of code, sometimes an entire subroutine has to be re-done. And any change you make might break something else, which needs to be debugged in turn.

 

These side effects are to be expected when software has not been thoroughly tested and documented and/or completely new functions have been added. But we know very well that no small part of the problems in TSW 2 lie in areas where the main work is not done by the coding, such as graphical glitches, text errors, faulty localisations, missing parts, and so on. All these errors could be worked on without interfering with each other.

 

An assessment can be made. It might not be an accurate assessment, but the devs should have enough insight to make an informed guess on whether any particular fix will take six hours, six days, six weeks, or six months (whatever "time compression scale" is being used).

When Matt mentioned the audio issues on Friday, his assessment on whether the audio could be fixed was very very loose. He said that he did not want to promise that the audio would be fixed (for the planned release date), because he didn't want to be accused in future of making: "wildly unfounded promises". For me, this put the aspiration that the audio would be fixed into the "wildly unfounded" category - i.e. it won't possibly happen, because it would be a wild assumption to make, and an unfounded assumption to make. And "unfounded" implies there is no founding whatsoever, which implies that no assessment has been made, whatsoever.

And this is the key reason why I started this thread - because it was implied that no assessment had been made, with respect to potential flaws or bugs in CCL, which is why I suggested that it would be reasonable to postpone the release.... until an assessment could be made as to whether or not the DLC was ready to be released.

Happily - they appear to have fixed the audio to Matt's personal satisfaction. And I am content with that, assuming that they haven't suddenly decided to give the mix for the windscreen wipers a massive boost in gain so that they break even more of the decorative glassware in my attic (the first few pieces being shattered by the 1972 Stock Bakerloo Line wipers).

I still don't know whether the route will actually be playable (enjoyably), given the stutters in the last stream, or whether basic stuff like a light source on the front of the train has been implemented. I guess we will have to wait until 10th June to find out, unless the communitying team is willing demonstrate a shipping build, on Playstation, this week - with a full 7.9 mile run, at night, through the stations (which I assume will be lit).

 

Well,

They've also confirmed it'll be on console (most likely Xbox though), and they said in the first stream they'd show at least a bit of it at night, I'm assuming you missed that part. They won't do a long run though simply because it doesn't stream well (you can't see much without completely defeating the point of doing it at night) - it'll probably be between Glasgow and the next station.

 

Actually, JD promised that it would be demonstrated on Playstation. So - if they demonstrate a shipping build, on Playstation 4, with a run at night covering the first half of the route, then I would be fine with that.

And, from a performance point of view, I would also be very happy for the demonstration to be done on the X-Box (2019 model, or earlier) - and if they could demonstrate both Glasgow Central and the junctions around Cathcart station, and a running train looks smooth on the older generation XBox.... then I would not have any perfomance worries, and I would then buy the DLC on day one.....

.......and if I then get anything like that performance on my PS4 Pro, and it is vaguely bearable to drive the route at night........ then I will no doubt be encouraging every person and their dog to buy the DLC as well.
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CORRECTION: As rightly pointed out by Tigert1966, Nick Y and Cameron's Gaming, both Matt and JD talked about a future demo on "console" and not explicitly "Playstation" (as stated above), about 25 minutes into the stream.

 

Looking forward to trying on the 10th, cheers!

 

Can you point me at where he said that, please? I didn’t hear it on the stream and I can’t find a post here about it.

 

I've always found this to be a problem with many British routes, in TS and TSW(2). There simply isn't enough headlight or ambient light to find your way or see any landmarks. The German and US routes seem reasonably well illuminated, although CRR has something of a similar problem due to its rural nature and the "headlight problem" on that route. But shouldn't suburban Glasgow be fairly well lit, even at night? Most big cities are.

 

I'm pretty certain that they said they would try and stream from console.
Usually with DTG this means Xbox as it is linked to windows and can easily be done.
Iirc, they don't have many people who can stream on PS systems which is why console streams have always been done on Xbox.

 

That's what I heard as well. Matt normally streams on XBOX doing console previews. So was wondering where the 'Promise' of Playstation has come from.

 

I never heard JD say anything about it being demonstrated on PS, I did hear Matt say it would be on Xbox.

 

I've just had the whole stream on, and JD mentioned nothing about showing it on a specific platform. All he said was it'll be on Console.

I assume Xbox given Matt's always used an Xbox series x on his console streams.

 

Glasgow converted from oil lamps to gas lamps in the early 1800s (1810s....?) - so they have had light of one kind or another for quite a while. Glasgow actually went on to adopt electricity for all sorts of things, including lighting for the streets, and for the fronts of various tranportation vehicles. But it takes time to "develop the tech" to implement things like "lighting" in TSW on all routes.

The impression that I get with the German routes is that they plan and co-ordinate in advance what they want on the route, in terms of driven rolling stock, AI, length of trains, lighting effects, etc., and then they work out how much budget is left to build the route - and then they stick to that budget, and use clever techniques to get the most out of what is available - for example, they will put alpha textures (absolutely blank textures) on surfaces they do not expect the player to see, and then the CPU doesn't have to work hard to compute the transformations at 45 FPS - in some circumstances they can save 80%+ CPU time over an extremely poor quality build like WSR. So, they get really good optimisation as a result, and can afford to use better textures and build stuff like Cologne station, and make it look fabulous, and have AI, and have beautifully immersive lighting, and it all tends to work smoothly, compared to UK routes.

With UK routes, like NTP, I get the impression that they are rushed out and built without any serious amount of care for budget. They are Dead On Arrival when they try to put the trains on, so they then have to cut the AI trains down to a minimum, remove lighting effects, shut down light sources, and strip it all back... and the performance is then still really marginal (NTP would constantly crash on X-Box, and they didn't fix it for years). I am a bit worried that CCL with become another NTP...... the performance of CCL (that we have seen so far) looks really marginal to me, even without decent lighting effects - but I can guarantee you that I am far less sensitive than most people when it comes to FPS, so if I see a problem now, then I am the "canary in the mine".... the instability that I see will upset a very large number of people if it is still there in the final build. I still don't think that CCL is really ready for release - but I do sincerely hope to be proven to be very wrong - I really want this route... As an aside, it is possible that even if the performance on CCL is choppy now, that by September it will be fine, because core improvements might bring it back - and then maybe the Preservation crew can get in and put the light sources back in (if they aren't there now).

BTW - I don't know for a fact that what I have written above actually describes how German and UK routes are built, or which teams built them - but it is the very strong impression that I get, from my personal experience, that, for example, MSB and NTP were not built by the same people, or used the same techniques.

 

I think you are not accounting for experience over time. NTP was one of the very first routes made for TSW, and they were still learning.

 

NTP and MSB released at the same time, in the same package. That is why I used those specific examples for comparison.

 

I think that you have made the same mistake as me (maybe) - Matt and JD talked about having a "console" demo, not an "XBox" or "Playstation" demo, so I have now corrected my post.

Thankfully, Matt has now said above that it is perfectly possible to do a demo on a Playstation DevKit on Thursday, and assuming that there is no significant risk in showing Playstation customers what they are getting if they buy CCL on day one (......apparently someone else has to make a "call" on it.....?), then that would be quite fabulous to see....!

*crosses fingers*

 

Actually NTP was released as DLC almost a year before TSW2020

 

Yep, both NTP and MSB came before the TSW 2020 pack - they launched as indvidual DLCs about eight weeks apart (Dec 2018 and Feb 2019....?), in "normal calendar time". But you are right, a lot of organisational change and process learning can happen in eight weeks, if there is a will to do so. Maybe that is what they did...!!

More seriously though - TSW does improve incrementally, all of the time. I have always felt that the German DLCs have been one or two steps ahead of the UK ones - but maybe this is actually due to very small timeframes between their releases. If so - that is really great...!

DTG have achieved a heck of a lot over three years. Hopefully CCL will take it all just one step further...!

 

It’s not so much British headlights being weak, as that true to reality, but it’s simply DTG not providing enough or adequate ambient lighting from surrounding assets and built up areas.

I’m hoping they’ve improved the ambient lighting at night in GCC. I’ve seen at least one path with lights on it so I’m hoping so.

 

Well, if the next stream is more or less a shipping build, we will see if the sound and lighting are improved. I must admit this route is looking more attractive than a few days ago, especially with the addition of rail tours and at least one service displaying dynamic weather. I'm on the fence because I still think it needs at least one more train set to look halfway busy, even if it's layered in from another route. What that could be I have no idea. My knowledge of UK locos is very limited.

 

I think that CCL is going to be a good route - and probably one of the best (for me). Although to fully enjoy it (assuming the lighting is demonstrable) you might need a PS5, or you might have to wait a few years for a next-gen PC (when such PCs become available).

In the meantime, there is always TS2012.... and here's some quite excellent footage from Mr Ross, which shows a variety of rolling stock at the start and end, on leaving and approaching Glasgow Central - and some of this, no doubt, will be ready to port into TSW at some point:



And if you are interested in vintage stuff.... or if you are interested in the range of traction that has visited the Circle over the decades, then this "Memory Lane" slide-show thing might be of interest:



BTW: I really do want to get excited and hyped up for this route - but I have done that twice before, and both times I have been severely disappointed, and the second time was Oakville, when I had robustly defended the route (and DTG) amidst a wave of criticism about the length, etc....... and then when it actually released, they simply had not even bothered to get the route out of alpha stage.

So - I look forward to Thursday (3rd June), and I hope that it goes well for the preview, and that many questions are answered, and many worries are put to bed. And I look forward to the Thursday after (10th June), when we find out what real users on real Playstations, real X-Boxes, and real PCs (some of which won't be particularly powerful) experience. Hopefully, the route will be welcomed by all, and that DTG will get a well deserved round of rapturous applause, re-setting a more solid foundation from which to launch Rush Hour.

Right - I must get that TS2012 version of the Cathcart Circle on my PC..... and have a play in the rain... at night, with some Class 87s running around in the background.

 

I only saw a short 10-15 mins of the preview the other day and thought it was very impressive and by no means need to be delayed. If the sounds have been improved further and the small gremlins are being ironed out then that is fine. Nothing will ever be perfect in life. I think the team have done a great job so far!

 

Complaining about the bugs in a preview stream is kind of like complaining about your food not tasting very good because you took it out of the oven too early, you weren’t supposed to have it yet!

 

The purpose of this thread is to make the suggestion that........ in the event that the Catchcart Circle Line DLC has not been completed, and/or could not reasonably be completed before the release date of 10th June, that the release of the DLC be postponed until a date when it can be published in a fit (finished) state, as described in the title of the thread, and in the OP.

I have no problems with previews of Works in Progress, a long time before a product is released, with no imminent release date. Such previews will not usually reflect the final release version, and if they contain bugs, glitches, missing content, etc., then that would be absolutely fine by me.

However, Friday's stream did two things:

1. It was announced that the release would be imminent (and this was known beforehand); and,
2. We were advised not to expect any improvements or further development of what was being shown, which basically meant that the dev build demonstrated would or could be the final release version.

I therefore asked for the DLC release to be postponed, because it clearly wasn't finished, and there was no promise to finish it.

Happily, we are now advised that further development has taken place, and that we will be given the opportunity to preview the shipping build. That preview will only cover a limited number of areas, so the best way to form an actual view of what the product is really like is to buy it, and play it. If, at that point, having actually played the DLC myself.... and I have a view that I feel is worth sharing, then I might do that - and that would be my view on the actual DLC, whether it is a complaint, or an endsorsement.

I think that there is a very very good chance that I will have a very very positive view of CCL, but I don't want to pre-judge the actual release version of the DLC at this stage. I am worried that by pre-hyping it, that I will somehow jinx it, like with Oakville. I don't want to make the Oakville mistake again. Nobody should have to go through that sort of trauma.

 

If I was at a restaurant preview night and they put food in front of me I would expect it to at least be a close facsimile of what they woudl serve on the opening day
I would also expect that I could give feedback on that preview night, the taste, service etc and be listened to
That's kind of the point of previews...

I'm sure DTG (Matt particularly) were more than aware that people would comment, critique and they were definitely aware that there were issues "on the day" because Matt spoke about them in the stream
The question is "will those things be fixed or are DTG happy to release software packages they KNOW aren't working as intended?"
That's what the OP wants answered

 

I think you should get up from you seat and leave the monitor alone for a few days. To talk about "trauma" over the release of a piece of DLC is the biggest load of clap-trap I have ever read to be honest.

Trauma is being told you need a liver transplant and the realisation that for you to live somebody else has to die and then sitting there waiting for that call that means another family is devastated. Trauma is watching a loved family member slip away from life over Facetime because you can't visit the Covid ward.

 

In this person's case read most "comment" with heavy irony. They're not traumatised, but the route certainly was