Glasgow Cathcart Circle Preview Stream #2 - Your Questions And Suggestions!

Who cares if it would fit or not? It’s better than empty platforms

 

I’m sure many people would care lol. A route set in 2014 with BR Blue 47s and MK2s lining the platforms would ruin the immersion

 

Yep - they could put a static/decorative Class 66 in Glasgow Central on a few Class 314 Timetable services, say very early in the morning, or very late at night. And it could be an AI that you pass during the day. Anything that adds a bit of life is always welcome, especially if it is a train.

 

hasn’t stopped DTG in the past,

also better something than nothing

 

By "shrouded in darkness" Matt probably meant that you couldn't see the Scenery etc. Because, you know, things are dark at night. And that's one of the key things they want to show off.

 

The 66 doesn't fit in either scenario.
The engineering trains is about as much as you will get.

 

There’s literally no suitable stock available in TSW for that. You’d need a Class 156, Class 390, Class 220/221, Class 350 or Class 185 for the other platforms, and DTG aren’t going to make this solely for AI traffic.

There will most likely be future DLC for the route, such as the Class 318, Class 320 or 380, which will help fill the emptiness of Glasgow Central.

 

The class 43

 

Yeah, DTG aren’t gonna put a green GWR HST on it… They won’t go to the trouble of re-skinning it either.

The only option for more traffic is if you use off the rail mode and add trains yourself.

 

Actually, Matt didn't use the phrase "shrouded in darkness". Matt said this: "It will come up alright in Glasgow.... ..... pretty much the minute we come out of Glasgow the stream won't be particularly fun to watch...."....

Now you could argue that it is a matter of taste, but a run at 8pm on a clear winter day, for the 7.9 mile Glasgow-Glasgow loop, would demonstrate:

- how well they have lit up the built-up scenery/buildings in the very inner-city area depicted (if they have modelled buildings with windows that have lights on, street lights, road traffic, etc.); and,
- whether or not the front lights actually cast light on the speed signs, gantry posts, and lineside furniture.

I would find that both fun and informative. I prefer running in darker conditions, in early morning, late evening and night-time..... in spring, autumn and winter..... and in drizzle, rain and snow. I rarely run in broad daylight/dry conditions. It's my preferred play style, and it might well be unusual, but there you are.

And, you know.... Glasgow doesn't suddenly get swamped in a pool of inky black darkness when the sun goes down, because they have electricity in Glasgow, whatever anyone else might think. And the war is over now, so there are no black-out wardens in Glasgow telling residents and businesses to shut their curtains. And the train itself is electric, and in real life has electric lights on the front, and they are really quite bright - and they would shine a very very bright beam ahead, which would be reflected by ultra-reflective surfaces like speed limit signs.

I also noticed that the green Class 47 (which has a working light source on the front, whereas the blue NTP version doesn't) was excluded from the line-up of extra UK traction to be used on the tours.

Performance issues on Cathcart Circle Line...?
But the thing that worries me is that Matt said that six-car trains were not possible (yet). And this points to performance issue (I believe), indicating that the route has not been optimised for six-car trains. Also, not implementing light sources is a crude way to try and get a quick performance gain (but to the detriment of immersion). I do hope that these two basic features have not been sacrificed just to get a few extra super-high-prim CPU expensive passengers in (and yes, I know, people want to see lots of passengers).

I got the strong impression from the daylight runs (and from the promotional video) that the performance was extremely jittery, perhaps even "jumpy".... and I am usually very framerate tolerant compared to most people (in context - I would be very happy with 25 FPS for TSW - and the game simulation part of the stream looked to me like it was way below this, actually at intolerable levels for me ).

I suggest people watch the stream again - and focus on any approaching signal - and you will see them jump about. Now - if you run at night, this effect will become much more pronounced/obvious. There are also some really poor long stutters (500ms stutters) that occur when certain very unnecessarily expensive assets load in at critical points in the gameplay (which I might mention another time).

NB: I very much hope to be proven to be completely wrong. And if CCL has decent performance, good night-time lighting and lighting effects from the front of the train... then I can assure you that I will be one of the very strongest advocates for this route - CCL is almost exactly the sort of thing that I love to see in TSW. And yes, I am aware that I am being hyper pre-critical....

.....I am perhaps over-compensating for my very rose-tinted glasses desire to see this route in TSW, and for it to be absolutely fantastic.

 

That’s a whole different timetable. Its not as if you have 101s and 52s running alongside 166s and HSTs

 

I'm presuming you want the sarcasm medal.
Anyone with 2 Braincells could figure that out. Not least someone who is from the same country as Glasgow.

In one of the Showcase Screenshots
We see a 6 car unit with 2 Sets coupled up. I also think that is the alternate 'livery select' option.
Also we do have a coupling scenario as well. So I think it will be optimised.

 

I feel there is a "Cathcart Legends Timetable Mod" DLC in the works right now, which will give you:

- a new timetable for CCL;
- permission to use the Class 47 and a Class 08 that you already own in the new timetable with some MkIIs' (that you also already own) and,
- a Class 101, rebuilt from the ground up.... but............ in orange....!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/222564/Train_Simulator_Strathclyde_Class_101_DMU_AddOn/

And all for an extra special price of £15.....!

For a lot of people, this would be £15 for the colour orange, but having paid £15 for the colour blue on GWE, it will be an easier second pill to swallow.

(NB: If the Cathcart Legends timetable mod DLC comes to pass, then I will chop off both of my hands to prevent me coming up with such suggestions ever again).

 

Yes...! That is an extremely good point. So - on this basis, any reasonably informed customer that saw the showcase screenshot, would expect to see six-car trains when the DLC is released.

So they must now get included. Awesome.......! ;-)

 

I would like mat to slow down when he is setting up a train he might know how to do it fast but some of us players are not as fast as mat is also would like for mat to tell us simple players the names of the set up he is doing nor a 5 second blur but over all a good game I think any way.

 

Railtour in class 20

 

In the future, when the rolling stock is available, is it a big job to layer/add AI services to the route? Or is it pretty straight forward? I guess this question also applies to any other route in TSW as well.

 

How bout a 380 DLC, I'm sure people would want that

 

Suggestion / Question for Thursday: is it possible to add the DB Regio layer to the route? Well... BR o7

 

I thought that I would give you a more helpful response. In the preview stream on Friday, about 76 minutes in, the question of driveable six-car units (as services) came up, and the answer was that it was "highly unlikely to happen before release". This was described as being very difficult to do (and that would be true, if the DLC is right on the knife-edge of performance).

Also, if you watch the stream to the end, the existence of the alternative livery/consist button for the Class 314 was raised, and the presenter said that he needed to query why it was there at all, and get it removed.

I think that you will find that these two issues are somehow linked.

Good news is - six-car units appears to be an aspiration (not promised) for this route. Although you are right - six-car trains are shown in the showcase images.... which some might regard as being misleading - it certainly appeared to steer your expectations for the product.....?

 

To be fair I couldn't care less about the 6 Car units. A 314 is a 314 for me. I spent years of my life going around Scotland in the 314s. Plus the route is near enough perfect, and looks incredibly like the real thing. So that had no affect on my expectations, no.

 

Will the voice overs in the tutorials and scenarios be Matt or the Scottish woman who did the announcements?

 

Would you add any loco DLC?

 

Ah, okay - well that's great then, if you are not all that worried about seeing longer trains, after all...! Not a problem then (for you)..... as it happens. But I think that your observations do warrant explaining, and the issue provides an excellent additional question for the preview stream, which is as folllows:

Q - We were shown six-car Class 314 train formations in the promotional screenshots for the Cathcart Circle Line DLC. Will six-car trains be made available in the DLC's actual release, and if not, why not....?

 

Or the better way to phrase it:
Q - Do the 314s run on this line as a 6 car formation, and if so why do we not get these in game
which leads to another Q
Q - when are we going to get services which require coupling and uncoupling of units rather than just locos on freight runs

 

Yep - I think that is quite a good question to ask....! And I am glad that you asked it...! Especially after trainsimplayer had pointed out that the promotional screenshots had shown Class 314s in six-car formation, giving a strong impression to anyone making a "purchase decision" that they would be in the game itself, when people purchase it on day one.

That said, by this time next week, maybe they will take out the middle carriage of the three-car set.... you never know....! Hopefully, that won't be the case, of course.....! ;-O

 

And yet to my mind anyone who buys something purely based on the promotional presentation without seeing actual instances is a bit of a fool... Certainly I would not go to watch a film by the poster, buy a game without seeing at least a screenshot of in game material (ie not cinematics (which in my opinion should be banned from game adverts)), or go to a restaurant without reading it's menu first...

If it's realistic, and if it gives more variety, go for it

 

Don’t forget, Matt was playing a dev build, which uses a chunk of resources to run diagnostics etc that won’t run in the released version.

 

I apologize if it has been asked before, I haven't read all the previous posts.

Any news about wheel slipping on the 314? Is the physics realistic?

 

Funnily enough, the legal standard for fair marketing (or "communitying", if you prefer.....) is much lower than what you might expect. You just have to be a relatively informed customer (someone that is ordinarily vaguely sensible and is capable of doing tasks like "shopping"), and be influenced by something that is not true, when making a purchase decision. You don't even have to make a purchase.

I agree with you though, that "artistic license" can go too far - and normally, say in the instance when you produce promotional material of a six-car train in a simulator game that actually won't have six-car trains, you could probably (although not ideally) still keep this the marketing material, but caveat it with:

- "The six-car train shown in this promotional material is not actually in the game itself";
- "The imagery in this promotional material does not include actual gameplay footage"; or,
- "The material in this advert/trailer is purely for promotional purchases, and does not actually reflect the real content of the game itself - the content shown is purely artisitic in nature, and you should seek further information before you make purchase to find out what is really in the product, because what is shown here isn't actually in the product..... in case you were wondering"

Personally, I think that the right answer for DTG, in dealing with this sort of thing, is simply to change the process, or to change the order in which things are done in the project plan. So - instead of creating the marketing material before the product specification has been met (if there is a specification)...... maybe they could build the product, assess what is there and what is actually working and will actually be released... and then, when they have the confidence that the product has been fully tested, and is actually ready for release.... then - and only then - make the promotional material, and provide a release date to the public.

Seriously - it's much easier when you do things in the right order. Like making a cup of tea.

Marketing is like milk - you should always leave enough time for the tea to brew, and you should always put the milk in last. ;-)

 

Except in the way that DTG work this would give the graphic artist about two days to produce their stuff...

And all they have to do is have a caveat stating "released product may vary from that shown" same as just about every european car advert...

Again, they who buy from a poster should look further

 

True - but don't forget that the DLC is being sold for use on early gen X-Box, and as a dev, I suspect that Matt's PC is a bit more powerful than the lowest powered X-Box that the game is made for.

On PS4, the DevKit is more powerful than a PS4, so you get the extra power when you are doing diagnostics, but if you want to emulate actual PS4 power for play-testing a build, you can set it to available game memory emulation (which simulates the PS4 doing other background stuff).

The DLC is also being sold for PCs that have Windows 7, an i5-4690 series CPU, 8Gb RAM and 2Gb GPU. And I suspect that Matt's PC has better specs than that. Just a hunch, of course.

Maybe this is a good question/proposal for Thursday....? Can the DLC be demonstrated on a PC using the minimum recommended PC specs for TSW 2, as published by DTG....(as stated above)?

 

I doubt they'd lower the specs just to see how it runs.
As for the Xbox/PS issue, I find that TSW runs incredibly well on Xbox, and my Xbox usually has issues running things as the storage is near full.
However I'm hoping after the enhancements in the core update for next gen the blame game can finally end.

 

Don't see a reason for this to be done... That's like saying movie trailers should be shown on a 14" CRT TV because, well someone might have that spec

 

Well.... maybe they could change that....especially now that they have the resources to do so....?

At the moment they are releasing "aspirational" marketing material while the development is still ongoing, and when it is unclear what the basic functionality will be (such as what trains you can run).

Maybe they could have a three or four week gap between finalising the build, following successful testing on all three platforms, and release/publication....? Then the marketing and publication activity (including QA by Sony, etc.) can be done at the same time, after they know that the product has been completed.

They could then write a manual as well, when they know what's in the box....!

 

Just a note on the 6 car units. I’m sure I heard Matt say that they exist in a scenario but not in the services. I’m not watching the whole stream again to check.

 

Matt is a bit Bish Bash Bosh when setting up a train and that can be difficult to follow even for people who know generally what needs doing to set a train up. By the time we see the preview, he’s had plenty of time to play with the train and is eager to show off the route but I agree it would be nice to have a slower setting up section with general narration because it also shows off the cab and any unique features.

I find that the preview or launch streams are a good place to refer back to for information if I get confused with a train setup and in those cases it would be helpful if the first train setup was clear, if not a full tutorial, for players to refer to like I sometimes do.

 

Totally agreed. I watch Matt as a sort of tutorial on where to find things like AWS etc. Matt is super super quick and has been told to slow things down a bit by Sam, but it’s so easy to forget. Muscle memory kicks in and in a flash the train is on the move.

 

Haven't seen much change in resource, or capability... We shall see what RH brings before I make any determination on that

Aspirational perhaps, obtainable? I doubt it

 

I would prefer if they had the launch stream on the day of release, but alongside this the manual and runthrough vids (maybe the day before given that consoles release at midnight local), so this would mean that people get forewarned of the setup and extras. I know AP have done this whenever they do a release... you get the manual a day before and then the full "This is what this pack does" on youtube at the time of release

 

Could Matt possibly give an explanation to why the AWS doesn’t sound on entry to Glasgow Central. I think it is right but I don’t know why it happens. So an explanation from Matt would be helpful (and may stop there being technical reports reporting it as a bug).

 

If you look near the track on the entry to many many main stations there's a small white sign with AWS struck through on it. This means there's no AWS beyond that point until you see another small white sign with AWS not struck through.
This is normally because the track layouts are complex, the signals close together and therefore it would be more confusing (and give the driver even more to do) than not to have it

I have just looked back on the stream and from 40:00 matt is entering Glasgow but although the AWS ramps are not between the rails (which seems right) the AWS signs are not there...

 

I think that this is a truly excellent and well thought through proposal.

I'd love to see manuals come back, accurately detailing the content of the product. And that should be possible, assuming that anyone knows what's actually in the product when it is released. So.....

....another question for the stream (feel free to slightly re-phrase it if you like):

Q - Will a manual be made available for Cathcart Circle Line at release?

-----------------
EDITED: To conform with the suggestion by ARuscoe (below) to pin down the timeframe in the question to a specific date, rather than potentially until "the end of time itself", which might actually be the current target timeline used by DTG in their planning documentation. Oh, how I miss the Daleks.

 

Just add "at release"... "Will" could be "anytime between now and when I finally give into senility"

 

Oh wow - that is such cynicism, from a fine and dandy person, such as yourself.....! Oh well, thankfully, we have facts that can be used to determine the truth of things, such as:

- staffing levels have gone from 7 to about 150+, and they are still hiring; and,
- significant losses for DTG have turned into significant profits, and they have a considerable wodge of cash available, and in hand.

And I suspect that 2020/21 has been a "bumper year", and that the financial outlook will be "quite rosy", when they report in September. (This bit is not established as a fact, yet).

So - they have the resources to introduce a buffer in their product pipeline, and put the sequencing of projects (including current projects, like CCL) back into a sensible order..... where, for example, "completion to spec" becomes a pre-requisite to any "marketing according to spec". They can choose to do this, if they think it might be beneficial. Personally, I think it would be beneficial. And less risky.

And we might then be able to see a manual for future DLCs.

 

They've not been seven since, well I don't know. Certainly when I was in there offices a while back doing initial play testing on TSW there was more than 7 people there...

And considerable fixed term loans... (read their accounts more closely)

I'd happily write the bloody things (I write documents in most things I do for work) but then I've not seen "manual writer" as a specific job for them

 

Of course there are loans, but it certainly looks like they can manage the balance sheet at the moment. I invest in quite a few companies, very regularly, and DTG appears to me to be in quite good health. They also have the equity shares to manage, of course, on top of the loans, which will be a drain - but I think they will work it out...... unless SimRail launches on consoles - that could become a very serious risk. But not yet And anyway, they have other fish in other baskets. The interesting thing for me is the Rest of the World split for the income, but I digress....

I have thought the same thing myself. If no better reason, than to lock down what the specification of a loco really is (out of interest), and see exactly what all of the controls do, and how they impact the simulation - would be interesting for stuff like the 1972 BKL stock.

But then I always think:

"Hey, actually, this isn't a community managed project, this is a product made by a company that makes profits, and anyway, it's already pretty darn expensive for what it is... and it would be so much easier to write a manual if the product specification is in front of you... and surely DTG can do that.... unless they really do never know to what extent the product specification has been met in the final product.... like, um..... with Oakville, for example, where the final product fell short of the original likely specification by about 70%, and it even fell short of the description in the manual by about 50%..."

To write a manual for a TSW 2 DLC, a single person (at least) would need to be in a position of understanding everything that has been built. And no such person exists in DTG (I suspect). And without a robust process to inform you of the delta with the spec, it isn't possible to write a manual. Not an accurate one. Not unless you have SNCF asking you for one. (Hint hint.... to the Mr ScotRail person.... if you are reading this.... can you "arrange" for us to get a manual for the Cathcart DLC pleeeeeaase ...., by, um... making DTG an offer that they cannot refuse.... but without the feet in cement and pushing over the dockside palaver...pleeeease....?).

 

Me too, which is odd when there is someone entitled "senior producer" on the team.. but then that could just be a title rather than a job description

I would presume that the people making the route and the people making the loco don't have ay interaction with the people who write the manuals for example

 

DTG doesn't control console sales.

 

I'd be slightly careful about connecting those two things together.... it is tempting to think that a senior producer should know the finest details of a major release (and I might have gone some way to imply this in the past myself).... but it isn't actually completely fair, true, or indeed, practical, in quite a lot of circumstances.

But I would expect the processes and key outputs to be properly documented and managed, and for a system to be robustly put in place to ensure that it is sustainable, and indeed.... resilient, in the event that there are personnel changes, for example. So it should be easy for anyone to take the reins on a project, and ensure its completion, in a logical, orderly way, even if someone's laptop has become addicted to coffee. The filing system should not include lots of directories called "Folder", "Folder(1)", "Folder(2)", "Folder(3)", "Folder(4)", "Folder(5)", "Folder(6 )"........"Folder(23)".... all on the Desktop.... for example.... A filing system should be designed for ease of retrieval - it is not merely designed for ease of storage..... ;-)

(I am currently a sinner on this, with my non-work PC, to be absolutely honest.......)

Maybe DTG can answer the point about the manual by simply telling us something like: "Yes - there will be a manual for Cathcart Circle - of course there will, and it will be available on release - we want you to get the most out of this product....."......?

I have no idea how they do this (or don't do this) in DTG. But I would say this, as an example.... in case it isn't easily understood or appreciated by the people in DTG:

- The LGV DLC is quite nice at first. Lovely loco. Fairly ordinary scenery. Lovely train. Nice stations. Lovely train. Did I mention the lovely train.....?
- The LGV services are a bit samey... and there isn't a great deal to do. But it is pretty. Sounds nice.
- The LGV DLC becomes deathly boring very quickly, despite its good looks.... I am not really sure it is worth £15 (which I paid for it), let alone £25.... it's a bit of a non-event.... eeeughhh.... but then.....

..... then you find the manual on Steam, and suddenly the product is quite interesting again - oooh, hang on - I can change some of the safety systems..... oooh - look, this DLC actually has quite a serious amount of depth, after all.....! Oh wow, I am glad I bought this DLC now.

Manuals are important. They add a huge amount of value to a DLC. In some cases they are absolutely critical to understanding the scope of what a DLC actually has to offer.

We need a manual for every single DLC.