Roadmap Update - 27th July 2021

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jul 27, 2021.

  1. thatleedsguy#8590

    thatleedsguy#8590 Active Member

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    Without meaning to be rude, exactly what do you expect DTG to do for NA routes? How many routes and how often should they come?
    What's considered acceptable for that market?
     
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  2. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    And judging from the pics we got on the Boston Sprinter article he did a damn good job too.

    I've seen the posts that the catenary, ballast and PIS are wrong but those things don't bother me. Still looks brilliant.
     
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  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A third of the total
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook is located in the UK.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how that post-segment appeared. Skyhook are from Liverpool, like the Beatles.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That's why I have pointed people's attention to the latest Roadmap, which, unabashedly, contains not a single mention of forthcoming NA content. The UK has 3 new dlc and German fans get 5. I'm not including Rush Hour. Some of this content is from 3rd parties, of course, but surely DTG itself should at least be planning some American content.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
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  7. thatleedsguy#8590

    thatleedsguy#8590 Active Member

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    In other words, you expect that the US will receive at least 3 more routes to tie with the UK's total, thus far.
    Germany still has to get 2 more routes to be tied with said total.
    (This is using TSW 2 numbers).

    Looking at the total number of routes from TSW...
    Germany- 5. USA- 4. UK- 5

    At the end of the day, it's not known exactly how many routes each country will get by the end of TSW 2.
    But if we expect them to follow a similar pattern, the US will end up with one less route than the other two.
    I don't see any basis for the idea that American fans are being treated with disdain. Just because there's no mention of NA content on the latest roadmap does not mean there won't be on subsequent ones.

    The US has gotten 12 DLCs (routes and locos) so far.
    The UK has gotten 16 DLCs. Germany has gotten 13.
    This is not counting anything upcoming with RH or on the roadmap.

    If you count things upcoming, those totals become 13 (USA), 20 (UK) and 18 (GER).
    Just judging these numbers, I would expect the USA to receive more DLCs in the future. Probably in the range of 5-7, assuming what's on the roadmap is the last of what we'll see for the UK and Germany.

    Also, I'd like to point out it's the choice of the developer, taking into account time, budget and workforce, as well as many other factors. DTG wouldn't just leave it's US market out in the cold. If they did, they'd lose income.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  8. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    But as you said, there have been many new UK and German Contents that's been made than US/NA Contents since TSW2 (plus 1 France and 1 Switzerland route to add in the pile).
    And whether the next road map after Rush Hour will have more NA content planned in the future, it will still be lacking behind in content when comparing to other countries no matter what, unless proven wrong.
     
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  9. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    But they haven't said that they are done making routes and the game is over after whats on the roadmap is made, have they?

    So why worry more will come the game is a constant work in progress.

    And there are many reasons why there are more European routes.

    a) DTG is based in the UK.

    b) a majority of train sim players are British or European. It is true.

    c) There are more systems and lines in Europe than in North America.

    And that last one is so true NA's railways are in serious need of improvement. Yeah you have the LRT, subway and commuter in the larger cities but the regional system is very lacking.

    Also its 12 US routes 1 of the 13 you put in there 2 posts up is a Canadian route.

    Sorry but we are not Americans up here eh.
     
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  10. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Why does the route have to be set in modern times? Alot of NA players would welcome a route set before Amtrak, set before all these regional commuter lines, it would help with the licensing especially since Dovetail has a poor reputation with obtaining licensing with them. Not to mention both CSX and Union Pacific are open to the use of their Fallen Flags in both TS and TSW (NS seems to be slacking of late, BNSF has its obvious issues).
     
  11. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Apart from the 313, it's all 3rd party content. DTG haven't announced anything post Rush Hour apart from the 313 which has been carried along for as long as TSW2 exists. 3rd parties can develop whatever they want, they're not bound to DTG's big three doctrine.

    My point is, the big three are getting a route each with Rush Hour, what's after that is anyone's guess. There may be 10 USA DLCs coming, there may be none. I would suggest we wait till future DLCs after Rush Hour are announced before bringing out the pitchforks since the USA is getting its fair share in Rush Hour.

    I'm absolutely on your side about more USA content - just to be clear - but complaining about announced 3rd party DLCs not following DTG's big three doctrine is a bit foolish in my opinion.
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The Daylight Limited or Empire Builder back in the 1950s-early 60s would be a massive bestseller. We don't have to keep playing "how many times can we re-use the SD40?"
     
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  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'll ignore the jingoism, for the moment, but to respond to your points:

    a. Irrelevant in business terms and DTG's history.

    b. Do you have numbers to support this statement?

    c. UK trackage: 15,811 miles.
    Germany. 41,315 miles
    US. 160,000 miles, of which Amtrak has 22,000 passenger miles. ( not including commuter rail.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  14. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    OK the proof for the second point, read any article on Simulator Games. The all say the same European sales are higher.

    Example: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...iche_simulation_games_anyway_We_found_out.php

    And watch the endo of the year Q and A where Sam states Germany is the highest in sales.

    As for the amount of track laid the US is the size of Europe. But you can't get across it as easy. How many miles of track in the US are left unused. And you would have to include all European countries not just a single country.in your figures. So why don't you tally all that back up and revise you numbers please. Total up every country and the UK. Oh look its higher.

    And I said services. There are not as many services in the US as there is in Europe.

    Example...there are only 3 trains between Chicago and St. Louis in Europe 2 cities of that size that far apart would have trains every hour.

    And here you have the important stats for usage and services.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw2LpRNWk3Gr4HpIRW97oDaP


    So there is your proof. Even though this is not a court and I don't have to.

    Who made you the forum police?

    And also being a Travel Agent for 26 years I can tell you I have sold way more Europe Rail passes than Amtrak single tickets.

    And all the travel publications also state what I am saying. Canada and the US are too big with too many miles for rail travel ever to be more economical than air travel. And NA rail is dying.

    When Eurpoeans look to travel the train is a very good reliable option out here if you were going NYC to Chicago you would not even think of taking a train between the 2. And if you were..take a look at how many options you have.

    Then take a look at Frankfurt to Paris trains wow 600% the amount of trains run compared to NYC to Chicago.

    Your turn
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  15. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    DTG haven’t put anything that they are doing after Rush Hour on the roadmap. Everything on there is 3rd party content and delayed DLC from last year. We have no idea how much US content they are planning. They have noted in the past year that have under delivered on US content, so knowing that they may well be planning a lot more. We just don’t know.

    I’d certainly like more US content, something different to the Sand Patch locos. I haven’t bought Cane Creek because it’s the same locos and the route doesn’t look good enough to me yet (That might change when I get a PS5). Clinchfield is the best DLC DTG have ever done and I want more of that kind of thing.

    I think there’s a problem with route length and train length for doing a lot of the US routes that people want and the locos have been tricky for DTG. I hope they can work hard to produce good quality US content from now on just because the US deserves good coverage. But the current roadmap has nothing that DTG are planning for any country on it yet, so we can’t tell if they will.
     
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  16. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think DTG will announce the release date of Northeast Corridor on the NEC preview. Its how they did it for DLOTGW and CCB
     
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  17. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    As in, put the empty hoppers on the siding and take the loaded ones out from the branch line. Yeah, that's freight interaction alright (without using any coal tipples in service mode, except for one but it's a small one).
    But you do have a point on the roadmap though. After DTG is done releasing the Rush Hour routes, what's gonna be the next batch of routes and locos that will be in progress to be made for the next year or two (minus what's already there now)? While I do hope that DTG (or anyone else) can make more US/NA content despite the limitations they have right now, but it's already hard to see that after many add-ons that have been made so far since TSW2.
     
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  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’d definitely like more interaction as there really isn’t that much going on. I wouldn’t even mind if most of the interaction was done in scenarios rather than in timetable mode, if that’s easier to do, but there is a lack of interactive elements in all freight content. A bit of coal loading and a rather bad attempt at methanol loading is about all we have. Wherever you look there is something for DTG to improve on. Slow progress as usual.
     
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  19. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    I've couldn't agree more on more freight interaction. Other than hoppers and tankers, I would love to see some with flats, boxes (if lucky), or containers for spines or well cars. Something that would make a route truly exciting to run on for sure.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that analysis is you're only looking at passenger trains, which are about as relevant to US railroading as cruise liners are to world shipping traffic. The business of US railroads is freight- American railroads move more than 5,000 ton-miles of freight per person per year. That's compared to 500 ton-miles per person in Europe and less than 170 ton-miles per person in Japan.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly wouldn't buy a old U.S route. The sheer lack of U.S passenger routes is odd tbh. There are tons of U.S Passenger routes/railroads that can be done. More lines for the MTA Long Island Railroad, MTA Metro-North Railroad, New Jersey Transit, PATH, SEPTA, Bay Area Rapid Transit, MTA New York City Subway, MBTA Subway in Boston, Alanta MARTA subway system, CTA, the list goes on. There are many passenger routes in the U.S that can be in tsw2. Doesn't always have to be Amtrak. The majority of U.S routes are freight which in my opinion should change. Not saying there needs to be less U.S freight routes but there should be somewhat of a balance between U.S passenger routes and U.S freight routes

    As for passenger loco dlc's that could be added to TSW2 U.S routes, there is the Kawasaki M9 EMU for the MTA Long Island Railroad, Amtrak Acela once nec releases as well
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    However, some players dislike commuter rail. I play TSW to drive trains, not stop them all the time.
     
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  23. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, we can go back and forth with the subject of NA content and I'm glad that it's being discussed. I hope DTG are taking note. But the imbalance is as plain as a pikestaff. By the time all the content mentioned on the Roadmap is released there will be the following dlc:

    UK: 19 (40%)
    Germany: 17 (35%)
    US&Canada: 10 (21%)
    France: 1. (2%)
    Switzerland: 1. (2%)
    It's going to take an extraordinary turnaround to redress the lopsided numbers.
    Based on the existing pattern, I'm not hopeful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
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  24. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    The UK and Germany account for 75% of all DLC. I really hope we'll see some variety (within Europe, as that's where my main interest is) in the coming year. More from France and Switzerland, or new countries such as the Netherlands, Austria, Italy, Sweden, Norway and Denmark would all be interesting to see. However, the content they currently make (electrified German main lines with Dostos, and 3rd rail London commuter lines) seems to be selling well, my guess is they won't stray to far away from that content. Maybe more 3rd party studios will get attracted to TSW, and those could bring interesting gameplay and countries to the table, but doing stuff for TSW is considerably more work than for TS (while selling for the same prices), so we'll have to see about that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  25. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, the numbers include routes and independent locos. So it's75% of dlc. But it's still lopsided on both counts.
     
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  26. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me, my bad :)
     
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  27. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I think it is worth remembering DTG are an UK company and I'm sure if DTG were an American company there wouldn't be many UK or European routes (EU). Germany gets a lot of love and that's where DTG make their money imo, I'd love nothing better than just UK routes but with DTG that is never going to happen.

    I think the US does good in DTG seeing how it isn't an American company but one thing is certain and that is if US routes made the most money DTG would make more US routes no?
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's even more lopsided if we look at vintage routes and locos. The UK has 2 routes plus a heritage railway (not to mention IOW), and multiple vintage loco DLCs; the Germans have none at all and NA just Clinchfield.
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The big money is in the vast US market. Led Zeppelin, the Who, Pink Floyd, the Stones and the Beatles didn't become zillionaires off UK record sales.
     
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  30. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I guess you haven't been a DTG customer for very long then. In the 10 years or so that they have been in business, they have published at least as many US and Canadian routes and locos in TS as all of Europe combined. I haven't added them up but I'm sure that's right. I have dozens myself. So, being a UK based company is a business irrelevancy, especially in these days of global enterprise. And no offence but your wish that they should produce only UK content and ignore the rest of the world is narrow minded, to put it mildly.
    As far as the notion that, if DTG were an American company, they wouldn't produce much European content, I might remind you of the multitude of American companies that operate extensively in the UK and European markets. Perhaps you've heard of Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon............
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  31. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I agree there should be more. I am Canadian and would love to see more routes closer to home. I was just pointing out reasons why there could be such disparity.

    And yes TS has lots of NA routes but you have to remember TSW is a baby compared to TS. As in my original post I stated they haven't stopped making routes so why are people panicking?

    If anyone should be complaining it should be Asia and Australia. Not even one route.

    So instead of complaining just have patience it will work itself out. They have said many times US needs more focus so I can see that being a focus going forward. We just need patience

    They have a good relationship with MTA, MBTA, Caltrain, NJ Transit and Amtrak. So I would see some of those coming out sooner than later.

    And yes freight is definitely a bigger deal in NA than Europe. I forget because I personally don't like freight.
     
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  32. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    The big problem with TSW is not what DTG publishes, but what others don't publish. Unlike TS, TSW is a closed system and thus others are prevented from developing freely for it. So not only do we get much less DLC, but also much less variety and less quality, as well as less innovation/less fresh ideas.
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The lack of third parties won't turn around that trend either anytime soon
     
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  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing preventing third parties from developing for TSW save their own unwillingness to do so.
     
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  35. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    Why would production of uk and German content stop ? These countries tend to sell the best
     
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  36. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    The terms and conditions... It must all go through DTG :)
     
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  37. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm no expert, but I think it's quite difficult for an individual to compose games in Unreal. The learning curve is steep and creating content is not at all like TS, where locos and even entire routes can be and have been composed by a single person. My guess is that a small team of at least 2 or 3 is required, and there may not be many such studios working in Unreal as yet, especially those with an interest in train simulation. So far we have Skyhook, Rivet and TSG, unless I'm forgetting someone. After all, according to what we have been told, DTG works in teams. How large those teams are is anyone's guess. I think getting more developers on board might be a very slow process. As it is now, DTG will have to take on the lion's share of route and loco development.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  38. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    Will Community Made Mods continue to work? It would be a shame to lose the GWE PIS and the FGW Unlocker Mod
     
  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'm narrow minded but it OK for you to throw your toys out the pram demanding more US routes, grow up. I acknowledged DTG would never do that. You then rant on about Apple, Google, Amazon. Oh yeah, I was comparing games software not multi-global companies for goodness sake.
    And if you take some train sims you get very little UK content in American train sims. TS is also different as people can create their own routes so it doesn't matter what DTG produce. Are you going to tell me there is no bias in US made software towards the US? We are lucky in the UK if we get foreign software in our own written language.
     
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  40. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    They will need to redone in order for them to work with the new engine 4.26.
     
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  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to know this as at the end of the last RH stream Matt said that mods would no longer work but I don't know what sort of mods he was talking about, scenario, livery, track, assets ETC I'm not sure.
     
  42. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    To be fair they made their name in the UK first. And comparing music which appeals to Billions world wide to a Train sim isn't exactly fair, LOL.
     
  43. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I'm at the point where I am 90% sure that the 313 will be silently cancelled and not released at all.
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think that?
     
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  45. bluetiger#2496

    bluetiger#2496 Member

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    I don't think that the 313 will be canceled, if for not other reason than it would be another giant blowup on the forums over something very similar to the last time. I think even DTG knows that is unlikely to go well. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes another couple of years to come out, and internally has nothing in common with anything that they've done with it up to this point. They've said that it was put on the roadmap too early, and they still intend to do it. They just haven't made much progress on it yet. As long as it stays on the roadmap until they do get around to making it, it won't cause a huge mess, and DTG can take their time to figure out what they want to do with it. That seems to be better for everyone than cancelling it or putting it out half-baked to meet an arbitrary deadline.
     
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  46. Mkdog45

    Mkdog45 Well-Known Member

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    I hope that the 313 doesn't get cancelled, especially as a lot of people are looking forward too it and the achievements are in steam, Im not 100% but doesn't that mean steam has a version of it, even if its not the release build.
     
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  47. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why people think the 313 will be cancelled. From a marketing point of view, they have to keep releases apart, otherwise it would've been too close to Glasgow Cathcart or the upcoming Rush Hour release, which will no doubt hurt sales.

    They want people to buy each route as soon as it comes out, at full selling price. Not sometime in the future, when it goes on sale.
     
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  48. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The 313 is just a recycled 314 without Pantograph and using Third Rail.
    Why it needs so long
     
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  49. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I haven't been keeping track of this dlc. Is it just for ECW or does it add traffic elsewhere?
     
  50. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The Class 313 has been on the roadmap since the very first one (or at least one of the first). Cathcart Circle was in development before the 313, but was added much later to the roadmap. This means they were both 'in production' at the same time, but even though they are very similar units, we haven't had a single thing announced with the 313. I'm not a developer, but I think that the changes needed to make the 314 into a 313 (camshaft traction system, interior, new cab, third rail shoes, no pantograph, etc) could have been done pretty quickly - two or three months, perhaps, or maybe less or more. Crucially, the 313's announcement is as old as TSW2 itself, yet, according to bluetiger#2496, the train has barely started production. The post quoted below sums it up for me...
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    It is for East Coastway, but I believe that (should it be released) it will appear as AI on the Brighton Main Line.
     
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