Rivet - Get Your House In Order

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by LucasLCC, Sep 28, 2021.

  1. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    This is an open message to Rivet. Please get your house in order before moving on to new projects. The old DLC has a number of bad bugs (especially Arosa) and really needs looking at.

    DB BR 204:
    - Several throttle notches don't actually do anything.
    - Missing Head Sway
    - Brakes are like an anchor. In no way realistic.
    - Content is still very poor. There's no flow to the moves.

    Isle of Wight:
    - Wheel slip when pulling away, even when in shunt on a downwards gradient.
    - Speedometer doesn't show the correct speed.
    - AI drive with their lights off.
    - The sea is terrible. I really hope this is improved with West Cornwall, and if it is then the sea should be updated on IoW too.
    - Standing makes the sounds unbearable whilst moving.
    - No rain on the drivers window.
    - 'Engineers" seat. It's a driver in the UK. Small one, but still irritating.
    - When starting a service, the seat is folded yet somehow we are sat on it.

    Arosa:
    This is the big one, as in my opinion it is currently unplayable.
    - Timetable is impossible to keep to.
    - Instant acceleration, which would be enough to kill the driver
    - The sounds are terrible. Like shopping carts are being dragged behind.

    Please, please fix your old products and don't leave them to rot. If Arosa is left in the current state I fully believe it should be withdrawn from sale, as it does not provide a good experience.

    DTG - You're responsible for publishing Rivets content. Hold them accountable too. Arosa should never have been signed off, and it certainly shouldn't be allowed to remain in that state. It's dragging your brand down.
     
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  2. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to add that also BR204 has awful sounds.
     
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  3. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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  4. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Please add for the br 204:
    -please enable substitution for other shunters, so that we can select it on other routes. This would also up the dlc value alot.
     
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  5. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I've seen a lot of this chat on the forums and while I don't own any of Rivet's work, they should certainly be aware that based purely on their reputation in respect of fixing known issues, I'm holding off becoming a customer. Even as someone primarily focused on UK routes, it's going to take some significant improvement and subsequent glowing reviews before I pick up IoW and Cornwall.
     
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  6. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that Rivet didnt even touch the BR 204 since its release is just devastating. In my eyes DTG should be very clear: Patch it to the standards with Livery Editor support and substitution or you dont get to release content as a third party in the future.
    I dont know why DTG accepts Rivets bad attitude of not fixing gamebreaking bugs. And there are quite a lot on Arosa where Rivet already said they wont fix these bugs.
     
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  7. paweuek

    paweuek Active Member

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    IoW is the only addon I don't have right now. And i don't think I'm going to buy it till its fixed. The same applies to any future addons from Rivet. Its such a shame because all of their DLCs have great potential. They have talented modelers but everything has to keep to the standard IMHO
     
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  8. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a prime example of 9 months of denial and excuse. If you look at Jasper posts on forum it's all smoke , mirrors and perfect reasons I won't buy their current batch of routes. With Penzance I will carefully be looking at feedback before deciding

    one thing Matt, Sam and the rest of the team do well is deliver a bad message or issue which needs work and own it. They have far more of my respect for this approach

    6463853A-1BA1-496C-82BA-55A349AD672D.png 4C572D4A-B657-4748-AF31-EE16BBE86CB1.png 35D7C9D9-077C-4723-B2F4-B742B87C24DA.png FD713FAA-EA19-4D0A-8FE3-780DC613BA33.png F9A75F03-3C0D-426C-A935-42FFFC5C5498.jpeg
     
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  9. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I've changed my opinion on Rivet massively since the BR204 and IoW days.

    The fact they won't continue maintaining their DLC means I will no longer buy anything from them.

    Hopefully they will focus more on doing scenery for DTG rather than do their own stuff, if they are not capable of keeping everything up to date.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  10. Rutger Luiten

    Rutger Luiten Active Member

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    There is also a gap between the buffers, with the BR204 when coupled at one end, because the coupling isn’t set properly.
     
  11. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Why is DTG allowing Rivet to release content which is clearly unfinished and/or unplayable? What happened to strict guidelines and quality control?

    Ironically, we still have a massive shortage of third party developers for TSW.
     
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  12. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Well-Known Member

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    Agree with the sentiments being shared above.

    Worth reiterating that Dovetail are the publisher of TSW2 and all it's DLC content. As the publisher they are ultimately responsible for all code being sold under their name and to their customers, irrespective of who they asked to develop it.

    Frustration with the quality of third-party developed DLC has been a recurring sentiment for months, yet there's little to no input from Dovetail on this - on their own forums, Discord or anywhere else (If a formal response has been posted, please direct me to it).

    Also worth stating that there appears to be a significant "gap" on the roadmap, where third party post-launch updates / fixes never appear, so we're left in the dark as to what's being worked on and when.

    TrainSim-Matt Can we have a formal response on this please?

    Thank you.
     
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  13. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    chieflongshin says “with Penzance I will carefully be looking at feedback before deciding.”

    I will definitely buy it, providing the scenery is accurate!!! I have my doubts the Rivet will work hard on that part, unlike Just Trains who with Tom Harrison, put in a huge effort to get it right. I hope Rivet will pleasantly surprise me!!!
     
  14. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Looking back at this I am fairly interested in what approach Skyhook takes. Cane Creek is also fairly broken in a number of aspects, so here's hope they won't become Rivet 2.0
     
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  15. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Rivet have replied to posts on their forum by saying (and I paraphrase) that they don’t have the equivalent of a preservation team because they are not as big a company as DTG. Whilst this is fair enough for features which “would be nice”, it is absolutely unforgiveable for actual bugs and inaccuracies.

    If they are not a big enough company to be able to do this, then they have no right to be in the business of releasing software. Maybe they should concentrate more on working on DTG products such as they did with Cathcart. At least then there would be the DTG Preservation Crew available to tidy up.

    It’s a shame as their releases are not always as bad as sometimes made out (I do actually enjoy driving the Isle of Wight despite the problems) and have the potential to be great with a bit more care and post release work.
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook by comparison looks pretty good. There are issues with Cane Creek, but no more than average, possibly fewer, and none of them rises close to the "game breaking" level. Basically we have a loco that rides six inches too high, and weird mixing of traffic noise.
     
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  17. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Has Skyhook committed to fixing the ‘too tall’ loco?
     
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  18. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Regarding Isle of Wight, don't forget one of the worst offenders in my opinion, which is the total absence of any track unevenness, making the ride a 100% smooth, which is just ridiculous and totally takes away from the feel of the route.

    Also the wiper blades don't actually follow the curvature of the front windshields, meaning they just float away from it as the move. Also the window glasses turn totally white if you shine on them with the flaslight.
     
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  19. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    This will never be fixed. We got to the bottom of this issue in another thread thanks to Maik Goltz. He had access to Rivet's work prior to release for TSW2020 and noted that some serious mistakes were made when setting up the basics for the 204 in Simugraph (which he informed Rivet of, but no changes were made). Basically, the way prime mover RPM, throttle position, and gearbox are linked together was not done correctly, resulting in the 204 behaving nothing like a real-world 204. According to Maik Goltz, fixing this would require completely re-doing everything for the 204 apart from the 3D model. While such a mistake should never have happened in the first place, no one can reasonably be expected to re-do an entire loco in a patch.
     
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  20. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    My motivation at work is to keep up with the quality. To me it lacks of passion. I would be ashamed of ignoring fundamental mistakes like in the 204. So i guess the time which they save instead of redoing the screw up, is worth to loose a customerbase.
     
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  21. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    That's the part most of you guys can't really understand. You would need to do such stuff by your own to understand how it can go and how not. They will not loose any customers (not a real countable amount of them). Most people do not know how things are working IRL. Especially in TSW the gameplay is way more important to the customers than any deep detail in the simulation of systems they never see. As a company you need to decide which path you want to go. The high detail with low revenue/time or the lower detal with better revenue/time to hold your business stable in place. To be honest, what i do with my work is not near by a stable business base. I put way to much time into the little details and the day where it breaks my neck is not so far away yet. Rivet will not risk their business for such a detail that only 0.x percent of users ever care of.
     
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  22. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for reply. I still buy rivet products. And for sure i will buy your content tsg.
     
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  23. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a difference here between expecting all of the throttle notches to do something, compared to it being 100% realistic.

    My knowledge of German traction is limited, but it's easy to tell that the throttle doesn't do what it should do.
     
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  24. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    A correct working throttle is not a detail, it is a BASIC thing for a loco to work. And customers can expect a correct working thing for their money. Sure, you can say "we dont want to risk our business" but the bad image you get for not fixing your stuff gets yourself into a much bigger risk.
     
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  25. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The fact that the discussion around every Rivet product is "I'm not buying it until they fix this or that DLC" stands against you. They got a very bad reputation after their work in TSW and it shows, not only here in the forums but on the Steam review pages as well. And a yellow "mixed reviews" label can be very deterrenting compared to a green "mostly positive" to any player.

    Thinking it will not hurt their sales in the long run is foolish. Constant bad reviews of your bug ridden products will hurt your sales. Proof? I'm also not buying Arose, even though I expected it to be a day one purchase from me. And I'm not playing Isle of Wight anymore. And I'm concerned about their new LU stock. And it's not just me, quite a few people are, and those people will scare other people away from their DLCs as well.
     
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  26. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. A lot of us are frustrated with the timetable on the Arosa line for example. Imo things like this aren't minor details, it affects the overall gameplay experience and doesn't make it as enjoyable. Small details like the placement of certain buildings slightly out of place or some minor scenery textures are things I'd consider unimportant compared to the other problems. But I understand none of this is easy or a simple quick fix especially for a small company.
     
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  27. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    In the way the loco is set up yet (what is wrong for the loco but not wrong per se) it works as expected. The motor is hold down by the transmission RPM speed. So, open the throttle will not give you higher RPM because the motors RPM is tied to the transmissions pump/turbine RPMs. So there is nothing wrong with the setup except the fact that it is the wrong transmission type for that loco. At the moment it is a fluid-coupling type and not the needed torque-converter type.
     
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  28. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Did you even read my words? Seems not. I exactly said that the gameplay is important, more important than the transmission type. That they need to fix the gampeplay to be enjoyable is not a question. But it is on them to do it :) I just put in the thoughts i have as a developer of those things. There is stuff you need to put in your available time and there is stuff you can leave out when you not have enough time. That is how the business work. There is not a lot of room for extra high details at least. For that there is a too tiny customer base for the game itself and too low DLC prices (sorry to say that but that is the painful truth)
     
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  29. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty much done with Rivet. It's so disappointing as I've been a long term customer an have a lot of their DLC for TS2021, which for the most part is pretty good quality.

    It's the lack of communication that got to me. In the lead up to a release, it's good, after the release, there are a couple of bug fixes and then it goes silent.

    What finally did it for me was the silence on the Arosa timetable. Then it turns out they were working on other projects including Cathcart Circle. Whoever thought it was a good thing to make that public when there is so much still wrong with their own DLC should think again. I don't care if it's different people, to me it is Rivet Games and they should have made their own mess right first.

    I really want both the upcoming Underground Stock and the Cornwall Route. But there is no way I'm purchasing them. I've been sold 3 sub standard DLCs. For any other product, I would have stopped after 2, but l really wanted Arosa to be good as it's my most local route. If they do fix it, then maybe I'll think again. Until then it's a hard no.

    I do suspect Maik Golz is correct, that it won't hurt them that much short term. People like me complaining in the forums are probably very much in the minority. Longer term who knows. One really good DLC could turn it around.
     
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  30. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I've voted with my pocket and won't be purchasing any rivet product end of. It's been 7 months since Arosa and 5 months since they promised the timetable will be fixed in the next patch which will be along shortly.

    As of now it doesn't matter to me if they do fix these issues, we've waited far too long so anything they do now is too little too late.

    All rivet DLC needs to be withdrawn from sale. It's damaging the brand to the casual user who may not realise that the DLC isn't in house.
     
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  31. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with you that it's surely a small amount of customer loss - let's not forget those who decide to buy it regardless of their forum posts anyway - I disagree that it's small details Rivet's products are suffering from - even from a casual players point of view I would consider them quite major (Arosa physics, sounds, timetable) and in most other industries such a product quality would not lead into a sustainable business model.
    The communication regarding these issues makes it even worse but as a playerbase we have to fully rely on the developers mercy to do something against it. Unfortunately Rivet seems to have decided to go another way.

    But please feel encouraged to keep up your very own personal way even if it might not be as profitable as it could be - I honestly hope that in the long term it will be (again, in every other industry it would) and even if we forum users are only a small minority of customers I am sure many of us will happily support you in doing so.

    Speaking for myself I don't really care about Rivets future products anymore - they could even do the Albula or Bernina line without bothering me - but am very looking forward to the G6, 420 and 232 (and whatever the future will hopefully bring).
     
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  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I genuinely would like to build up my collection of UK routes. I truly would. The problem is they are all to bespoke, one off and in different genres. Germany a different beast and I hope the UK gets into the swing of this.

    I have ECW and SEHS which I don't mind either. I would like to hope that the Penzance route is a decent project which begins to connect the dots and layer up with other UK routes. I just have this niggle in my mind it will release, we'll get some weird bugs and 6 months of Jasper denying it or giving the normal "patience" spiel.

    I was genuinely looking forward to Arosa and wanted to buy it. I just think they have a poor attitude, hide away and don't take the difficult questions on a stream and hope it will all go away. I've looked so many times at IOW in the sale too and I just can't convince myself to buy when I keep seeing the posts on their forum fobbing people off.
     
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  33. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Maik is right the vocal bunch of us here might not hurt Rivet sales significantly. But nonetheless, I see it as significant to myself not to buy from businesses that treat me badly. Even if I was the only one in this case (which I'm not). I might hurt myself missing on interesting content, but I will save some bucks to get different content (hey, AoE4 is coming out soon! :D)
     
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  34. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Such low quality work as that done by rivet may also impact licensing in a not so distant future. I for one wanted to ride on the real Arosa line since it is within reasonable distance from where I live, but after Rivet's DLC let down, I have postponed, if not cancelled that trip. Poor DLC content gives a bad image to Rivet and, to some extent, to the portrayed railways as well. If I were the owner of some sort of railway, I'd think twice before licensing it ti appear in TSW...
     
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  35. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    To all bad we still cant play arosa, its not abandoned. its also said clear by jasper that they just couldnt do it in the very now. (i guess its because the close release of the 38stock).

    After release of the TubeStock DLC in my opinion would be the perfect timing to focus on Arosa, because the acceleration is broken. According to the fact the iow update happend, im patient and focus on other routes in the meanwhile.

    To be fair, iow is a nice experience and looks great too in my opinion. There is a mod for PIS screens at Ryde esplanade & Pierhead and Hovercraft as well. If somebody cant enjoy it, its maybe the wrong route, and this person should stick to Rushhour content with a higher train frequency.

    - The Speedindicator is wrong by 3mph, who knows if the one of the real vehicle is right? Actually i like the fact it shows a drift.
    - Wheelslip is just for 1 second, after that it accelerates normal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  36. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    The issue is it’s all 6-9months of hollow promises. If they said we will release the tube and Penzance then fix it people may respect that. All this patience piffle is burying the problems under new dlc hoping it goes away. There’s many things in life not abandoned, time travel, elixir of life, damage in gran turismo, bringing back a mammoth but equally it’s slim to no chance of them happening.

    They simply do not display that they are actively fixing which is the issue, all they do is naff forum posts
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  37. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Under EU regulation, a physical product must come with a limited warranty (1 year international, 2 years in the country where it was bought from).
    For digital products, it is called support. The manufacturer is responsible to address the issue(s) generated during development in order to ensure the product serves its purpose. It is a legal requirement. On all physical products, you see a small round label "Q.C. passed", which means they have passed the required safety and quality checks for that particular product type.

    Where is that on digital goods? As always, the regulators are way behind and there is a huge jungle in regards to the quality of digital products.

    This is why some companies make it and others fail. It is full of unprepared, scammy, and misleading companies that it is extremely worrying for buyers nowadays.

    You can file a complaint to either EU watchdog and/or your national watchdog that is in charge of overseeing merchants and commerce overall.

    I know people are not used to this but it is a much powerful and useful way to deal with such companies and it sends them a message once they are audited/verified based on a complaint.
     
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  38. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the best hope for fans of the 204 then is to wait for another route that uses it, where there might finally be an incentive to rebuild it, like with the BR143 and ACS-64.
    I doubt this will happen to all Rivet Games content, but I think that, unless licensing issues beat it, the BR204 will be the first DLC to be withdrawn (unless you count NEC-NY and its related DLC). It is a beautiful model, but currently it is unplayable to people who know what's wrong with it. I want to buy it and love it, but right now there's no point in me buying something that doesn't work. Arosa would probably be second. The Isle Of Wight, unlike the other two, is still enjoyable and functional, so will probably last longer. Remember that in TS, DLC in a much better state has been withdrawn (like the Class 02, Up The Junction and the Class 37), so TSW DLC being withdrawn isn't out of the question.
    I doubt the European Union would be able to do much about a British company... And even if they could, there are far bigger problems for them to be tackling, like Cyberpunk 2077...
     
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  39. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    The EU can sanction any company that breaks the rules set for its market. It's about where you operate, not the origin. This is why Google as an American company is by far the one with the biggest and most fines received ever issued by the European Commission.

    I agree, there are bigger sharks out there to catch. If we are consistent in reporting problems, I believe that one day they will reach those too.
     
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  40. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Tbf I am totally fine to pay higher prices for Loco DLCs and Routes if the quality fits the price and if I can rely on regular patches.
     
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  41. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    About that...
     
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  42. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    There's a small group of people on the forum who regularly bring up the idea of suing people, reporting them to government agencies etc.etc.
    It's completely silly and inappropriate in the context of a niche game like TSW. So please, whoever you are, just stop.
    We are a very small community of train lovers and train makers who are, to a large extent, interdependent. Sure we can whine and moan about quality issues, bugs and how things are broken and not fixed. Heaven knows I have plenty of complaints like everyone else. But we carry on and enjoy the game as best we can. And most of it is enjoyable, if we're honest. Maik is right when he says that the dlc prices are too low. For me, that's part of the problem but beyond our control, especially when DTG makes the incomprehensible claim that higher prices will make no difference to quality.
    So let's continue to complain when called for and praise where it's due as we have always done. But those people who talk lawsuits, commissions and regulatory agencies are just being ridiculous. Go someplace else and do your amateur lawyering.
     
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  43. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

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    What the BR 204 really needs is a better timetable with more intuitive services. The services it has now are lackluster, there are so many potential services we could use it with on MSB, that just aren't there!
     
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  44. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I too want to say that I have no intention nor wish for Rivet to get their products pulled, let alone sued. That is absolutely out of order and pitiful considering the scope we are dealing with here. That is not even considering what the definition for whatever kind of digital goods standard would apply here.

    All I want to achieve is to 1) give Rivet an incentive to do something in order to get sales that have not been realized due to issues mentioned here, and 2) get them to improve on their customer interaction.

    Adding to 1):
    This is mostly subjective of course, but personally I can agree on a lower standard for releases of a small team. The mentioned issues with the 204 for example, I would not have noticed without this thread and I do still not care that much. The one thing that would be a great addition, would be to enable the Loco for substitution, as it would help using the Loco more as well as seeing it on other routes by default. At least Matt made it sound like all that is hindering it from substitution is the missing setting for it.

    IoW personally feels good enough as it is now, when applying my lowered standard for it.
    Arosa has two big issues for me. First off, the sound is not good but I can accept that it might not been possible to source proper sounds for them. The acceleration bug is bearable as well.
    I was however utterly turned off by the play-doh mountains. There is a part of me that hopes with the release of that unofficial editor, that someone will be able to populate the areas with trees or some sort of fakery. But even if not, I could arrange with that if it weren't for the timetable issue.
    Driving in order to keep up with a timetable is at least for me a major gameplay point that might even be the most engaging one on passenger services. It already frustrates me when I can't follow up on the times on SEHS, which some of them you simply can't match.
    Here it is worse though, as not only can I not even hope to match the times, it does also have weird effects on the meet-up times with traffic from the other direction.

    The bottom line is, and I hope some people would agree on this, that while there are lots of smaller errors and inaccuracies, the major gameplay issues are the ones that really need to be looked into and, if time and workforce constrains are there, need to be focused on rather than the other things.

    I don't want them to go out of business, I want their products to be in a state where I can at least recommend it without hesitation, and their communication to be reliable. You can't promise to deliver the timetable patch shortly after the next patch, but then months pass by and nothing gets ever mentioned again. At least be honest enough to communicate yourself when you cannot fulfill such a statement, and not have the community ask questions about it for weeks until you decide to answer to one of them, and utterly ambiguous at that. This unfortunately doesn't evoke the feeling that I can trust their company, and if I cannot trust them, how do they expect me to give them my money?
     
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  45. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I personally would be all ok with waiting a longer time for a release, but for sure not accept a lower standard.

    The details we have now was one of the major reason why i changed from ts to tsw 2 (without ever playing tsw1). And i spent a lot for content for ts20xx to 2022.

    When the community is ok with rivet to lower the bar, dtg will come after.

    Maybe dtg should give 3rd party devs a better & easier base for creating tsw content too. That would be constructive in my opinion.
     
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  46. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I went further, I told Rivet’s mum what they’ve been up to. They are so grounded this weekend. That’ll teach them.
     
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  47. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Oh my Lord this ⬆️
    LucasLCC you should again post it in the Rivet forums
     
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  48. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Is anyone from rivet on here available to be tagged or tell us to be patient? I’ve two routes of theirs I’d buy if they sorted them.
     
  49. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    You could tag Jasper_Rivet , but I doubt it makes much difference.
     
  50. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I like trains and I'm pretty active in the community, but I'm nowhere near enough of a train nut to know all of the fancy technical little details. As long as it looks and feels realistic, that's enough for me. For Rivet DLC, that means that I do notice IoW AI trains not using their headlights, which feels weird, but even then it's still not bad enough for me to totally ruin the enjoyment of that route. The timetable on Arosa is impossible, but I've learned to ignore it. However, the ridiculous rocket-like acceleration of the Arosa train, that does feel so unnatural that it actually ruins my enjoyment and I haven't played Arosa since the bug occured.

    Oy, don't break your neck. Nobody gains anything from that, and you're the one who'll be stuck with all the problems. Take care of yourself, your health should always have priority above anything else.
     
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