Dtg Should Extend The Length Of The Upcoming Harlem Line To Southeast.

Currently, the plan for the Harlem Line that was announced on the Roadmap back on 10/30/21 is too short. The line runs from Grand Central Terminal to North White Plains. While this is a good plan, I feel as if it is too short and I think I can speak for others when I say that. This section is only 24 miles long. Personally, I think the line should run further north to the terminus of all electric trains at Southeast station. This would make the line have a length of 53.2 Miles, a little more than double the currently planned length. The line from North White Plains to Southeast would also feature around 10 crossings and very scenic views. It also has the potential to have a P32AC-DM DLC, as some trains run from GCT to Wassaic and requires a locomotive that can run on both third rail and diesel. (Note that you would leave the cab on the Wassaic train at Southeast as beyond Southeast is the diesel section to Wassaic.)

What do you guys think?

 

While I tend to agre with you, I'd advise you to not get your hopes up. When DTG usually announces a route, it is already under development and therefore it's difficulty to add new mileages.

 

It also worths noting that while making it longer to Southeast would be great, as it would allow for more rolling stock in the future, currently it sould have no use to double the length of the routr when all M3A and M7A services terminate at North White Plains anyway.

So unless they add some other rolling stock along with it as well, which I highly doubt would to at this point in development, it's really unreasonable to extend the route.

That being said, it would be great. But I don't see it happening. At least I hope the shorter length will mean it will be well made.

 

Double the length double the release time. If there's already 25 or so stations you've no hope

 

The longer the better in my view, but the likelihood of DTG extending the route is very slim to say the least.

 

Could this make it a prime candidate for a later route extension? If all of the included trains terminate at North White Plains, adding in a further section of route along with a later loco DLC wouldn't affect the M3/M7 timetables or existing services that people have already completed (the organising of which seems like a key reason for not doing route extensions up to now).

It would be a similar deal to the Birmingham-Worcester (UK) route I suggested where you'd get EMUs running the initial route to Bromsgrove, then add the Worcester section later with the DMUs. As long as it was all planned up front, there shouldn't be any timetable issues doing the extension.

 

I can think of one word, deadlines.

 

If it's true that the M units terminate at North White Plains then I can see why they've terminated there, and I don't know if they have a license for the remainder of the route etc
It did seem from what people were saying that it's akin to doing the Great Eastern Mainline in the UK, with services to Shenfield but terminating the line at Stratford

 

It has been fairly well established that DTG are not in the business of doing extensions to existing routes, otherwise lines like GWE or TVL would likely have been extended by now.

 

Well, they can always change their minds. Just because they said they are not doing them yet doesn't mean they never will.

 

Okay so it makes sense for the route to end at North White Plains. But I'm wondering what else we'll be getting for our money? Or would it just be cheaper than a normal route? You can't expect us to be content with paying the full 30 euros for half a as much content ...

 

Length isn't everything, why would it be half as much content? It can still be a great route, if done right.

 

From what I understand there's over 20 new stations; 2 reworked units, all multiple carriage; a different signalling system; etc etc
So to say you get half as much probably discounts how much work DTG are putting in, even if you personally don't care about the effort, only the length and shiny new things (ie completely different)

 

Sure, but the price of a product is connected to the cost to make it. Shorter route + re-used trains (visually different, but SimuGraph will be copied over to a large extent) = less dev cost to make. Unless of course they put that dev time into something else. ARuscoe suggested there will be a different signalling system (I don't know the route so cannot judge that statement at all); that could be something to put dev time in, so we will see.

 

Sure, but that's why I said it can still be a great route. Just because it's short, it still features like 20 stations and it mostly runs through the city which is harder to model than the great plains of Sherman Hill, for example - city buildings have to be hand placed, while miles of grass can be auto generated or brush painted.

The ATC will surely need a lot of work, as it's not perfect neither on LIRR or on NEC. And the same can be said about the M units, which will need a lot of work to fix. Though these don't really "count", as these shouldn't be broken to begin with.

But my point is, that if the route is well made (works well, good timetable and nice scenery) then I think it will be worth a full price, even despite the shorter length and somewhat reused rolling stock.

 

It would be a pain to extend GWE, for example, because all of the trains which end at Reading should really carry on. If they extended past that point, what do you do with all of the completed services to that point? Do they just get cancelled, or do they stay ticked as though you've gone all the way to whatever the new route end is?

With this suggestion (and a bit of foresight) there would be no issue with the existing timetable or services because all of the M3/M7 services end where they should, regardless of whether the line goes on further. Adding in a bit more track at the same time as putting a new diesel loco on the line would be feasible and technically achievable without raising loads of other issues.

 

The extension could even come with the loco pack. Map extension + train DLC. Would be pretty cool in the future.

 

Separate timetables... they've shown they can do it on the diesel legends pack, the Isle of Wight and upcoming Arosa...
No reason not to have a PAD-RDG timetable and a PAD-OXF timetable as an example

 

I hear it’s 38 stations to Southeast and 53 miles. There’s an underground section with large stations (harder to make) already and a built up area with many many buildings. This makes it bigger in scope than the Rush Hour routes but without the dedicated folk working on aspects of it in their own time for things such as the timetable etc. After over-stretching somewhat on Rush Hour and the subsequent loss of development time this year due to the extra months those routes took, I think asking DTG to overstretch again on what isn’t their flagship release of the year is really asking too much.

Where the route ends in the version planned for release is an appropriate ending point for where the services terminate and gives service times in the same ballpark as other TSW routes. I think it’s long enough for what DTG can achieve. With the release of some long routes recently (two of which have been truncated from their planned lengths die to being unobtainable within the development time) it’s obvious that some shorter routes are to be expected. Asking to more than double the length of a planned release isn’t going to work. It will still be a worthwhile release of a route that people want. If it turns out not to be worth full price, buy it in a sale a bit later on.

 

If the M3A/M7A terminate at the end of the route DTG is building, then I’m happy with that. It’s realistic, which is what I want most (as much realism as reasonably possible).

 

Having ridden on this route in real life, I can confirm that North White Plains is not where trains typically terminate. The majority of traffic on this line run from Grand Central to Southeast, which is the end of the third rail electrification on this line.
Hence, this is the reason you have your M3's and M7's terminating at Southeast, while diesel-locomotive hauled trains run the shuttle service between Southeast and Wassaic (with occasional trains running all the way to Grand Central.)
The trains that do indeed terminate at North White Plains are typically the less-frequent local stoppers, which do their turn-arounds while sat at the station.

So if you've played the LIRR DLC, it's akin to having the end point be at Hicksville, when in reality most trains proceed farther. Or like on the GWE having Reading as a terminus.

It's worth noting also that there is a small yard/depot directly north of North White Plains Station, which I believe is the most likely reason why this was chosen as the end point.
It was also quite convenient when the train I was on had a fault while arriving into North White Plains. The crew brought in a fresh M7A unit from the yard and made the swap in a couple of minutes as opposed to waiting half an hour in the awful summer heat.

 

It's not a brilliant solution though. Fine for the likes of Diesel Legends where you're choosing one timeline or the other, but not if you're working through a Journey or timetable then have to start a whole different timetable, like the replaced one on ECW. With that, you don't get to see AI 313s when working through Journey mode because it uses the original timetable. Better to just add in the new trains into the original timetable where you've already left intentional gaps in for them (like they did with BML) - as though you've actually planned ahead for such things...

If skyMutt is right (and Dinosbacsi is wrong) and the M3/M7s don't terminate at North White Plains, then they've already shot themselves in the foot again à la GWE, and my suggestion is moot so a separate timetable would be the only option.

 

Well now I'm sad again. So once again we get an unfinished line... Why? Increase the development time and/or the price, but why make half lines?

 

According to the schedule on MTA website, quite a lot of trains terminate at North White Plains. Each journey from Grand Central Terminal will take about 40 to 60 minutes. It's not too short compared to other routes like ECW or HRR, and personally I prefer this to some of the 30-minute high speed train services.

 

Correct Service Pattern is Local Terminate at North White Plains Express multiple units to Southeast. M3As do those as 8-12 car trains M7A to Southeast are 8 car trains because substations cannot handle 10-12 car trains of M7As due to their power consumption

 

Those are actually Local services express services end at Brewster North Southeast. 1hr 53 min trips is Grand Central Terminal to Southeast Brewster all local

 

Actually the electric trains final stop is Southeast. North White Plains is a short-turn for electric trains but the real terminus is Southeast station.

 

The timetable list them as local while Southeast is Express multiple units. Meaning Mount Vernon West Scarsdale are skipped some Express trains go Grand Central Terminal Harlem 125th Street Scarsdale White Plains North White Plains then local to Southeast

 

Another service pattern on the route is Semi Express Services that start at North White Plains and run local to Crestwood then go express to 125th Street and Grand Central. A separate service starts at Crestwood and runs local all the way to Grand Central.

 

If shorter route means more resources will be spent on details of simulation and points of interest in the scenery, I'm against extending it to Southeast. As mentioned already, short routes can be very enjoyable, case being Rhein-Ruhr Osten. Rather short in mileage, but otherwise an excellent route. Very recognizable scenery, a busy timetable, varied rolling stock and different gameplay options.

 

I agree that this obsession with route length is misplaced. Many TSW routes have shorter main lines than their TS counterparts for one reason or another ( CRR, SFJ, GWE, for example ). And Bakerloo is one of the shorter subway lines these days.

Shorter length can be a compromise with an expectation that quality will compensate for the fewer route miles. There could be more and better stations, more and busier yards, more branches and, most importantly, a higher quality of scenery and infrastructure.

This may not be DTG's " flagship route " for 2021-2, but that doesn't mean there should be compromises or short cuts in terms of quality.

The only criticism I have is that DTG seem to be in a love affair with the East Coast. It's time to cross the mountains and think about the rest and most of the United States for passenger rail.
It's analogous to the preoccupation they seem to have with London and the South of England.

" Why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is. ". - Willie Sutton.

 

There was the Peninsula Corridor on the West Coast, my take is that DTG found out New York sells more than any other route. That also explains the higher number of London Routes.

Bakerloo was short but really detailled. If this route ends like that I can be satisfacted.

 

Blimey, I'm not sure I could be bothered to do a 50-stop service anyway!

This is actually the first US route that I've been interested in for a while; since Peninsula Corridor perhaps. I still enjoy LIRR with the two trains, so running them (or similar versions) on a new (hopefully busier) route would be good. RRO has proven that a shorter route works fine if there are plenty of stops to keep things interesting. Are there any branches to include on the route, like LIRR has?

Fingers crossed the PS Trophy issue is resolved before this lands.

 

I suppose that's understandable. What is your opinion on what has been said here about the possibility of a "route extension + loco add-on" in the future? Obviously you can't promise anything here, but could it be feasable, considering the route could be extended in the future without touching the exsisting services? Could be a really great opportunity to try out the whole route extension idea.

Anyway, the shorter length is a bummer, but I'm still interested for the M units and the general commuter feel. Hope it ends up being good, I wish the best of luck to that!

 

No. Express services terminate at southeast.

 

I really hope you're right about the M3A/M7A not just being a copy-paste. I'd really like to see those sounds improved, and the proper visual changes made to reflect the new units. As for the route extension to Southeast, what I count from the official MNR map is 30 Stations (Grand Central - Southeast), 13 more stations than what will be included with the route just to NWP. Are you counting no-longer-used stations in that 50 number? I do understand though that it wouldn't be practical to build the route out that far, but I really do hope that the section that will be included will have the large number of services that are there IRL, including the AI New Haven & Hudson Line services.

 

There aren't 50 stations on this line at all though. There aren't any abandoned stations either that are still standing. The abandoned stations were closed and demolished decades ago

 

That's just not true. There are 30 stations from GCT to Southeast. Once again, my point of this being as though London to Brighton was cut back to Redhill still stands.

 

If doing a full route is out of your scope, then why do it at all? Why not do a route that actually fits within your scope. If you're presented with a project proposal that's outside your scope, you don't just do half of it! You shift focus to a project that's within your scope, especially when you have complete control over what projects you do and don't take on.

If 30 stations to southeast is too much, then why not model the Hudson Line with 21 stations to Croton-Harmon? It's a route that would make sense for the included rolling stock, and is one that you already have references for.

 

I hope we will see the ballast tech from Dresden Riesa as well as the improved night lighting make an appearance on this route. For a 24ish mile route, it's the least they can do behind improvements to the M7 and M3.

 

What bugs me is that there was a lot of criticism put towards some of the recent German routes for not including new stock. In response someone from DTG (I think it was Matt even) said there would be more effort in the future to keep that mind going forward. Yet here we are, another route making use of existing stock to form the backbone of a route.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, stock's just as important for selling a route as the route itself is, and rehashed stock from LIRR isn't gonna cut it for lots of people. Most obviously anyone who already owns LIRR ain't gonna be a huge fan of that, but even beyond that as someone who doesn't own LIRR I'm not impressed. LIRR is about double the length, and during a good sale you could get that and the M3 for the same price as what the Harlem Line will likely retail for. Even if the route had to be 24 miles including a P32 and a cab car would've helped the value of Harlem immensely.

 

I don't mind the length of the route, actually I think it's fine. In my opinion it's critical to improve the physics and sounds of the trains included compared to their LIRR counterparts. Also, to have a decent representation of the area I hope the amount of unique assets will be adequate.

 

What surprises me is the lack of add ons available for this route and scope for DLC, even if a PC32 addon was produced how many services would it layer in? A handful at most looking at the sources Ive found.

I always thought a factor in any new route would be what loco adds on can be produced and I just cant see it with this route.

 

Sorry for going off topic, but what is unique about the ballast in Dresden-Reisa?

 

Grand Central to Southeast has 30 stations, how u get over 50 stations????and majority Southeast trains don't even stop at stations between White Plains and 125 St???the NWP are the local and semi express service....Peninsula Corridor was about 46 miles and all. And the timetable of that in real life is approximately 1 hour and 15 mins, which there are LOCAL trains that entire route

 

they can always change but now it seem they add routes late in developpment in the roadmap.

 

There won't be any changes. The route will end at North White Plains.
It can still be a very attractive route if the assets are well modeled in the style of Rush Hour.

 

Go for the 52 miles.