I've seen various people reporting random ACSES penalties in different situations.. I want to note a specific location for this here, related to Signalers permission to pass a stop signal. After leaving the yard with the built train.. you first pass an Approach, followed by an upcoming Stop. The ACSES then jumps to when I was going around 20. Managed to brake with suppression.. though it slowed me down to 4, so still trying to figure out how to deal with ACSES reduction at such slow speeds. In this case, I just passed an Approach and the Stop was visible, but instead of letting me get to it and stop then, it demanded an immediate stop, just past the Approach. Next, upon nearing Stop, contacted signaler and was given a Restricted to 20. Upon passing the Stop, the ACSES jumped to 0 and very quickly gave me a stop penalty. I'm wondering if this is a result of not initially stopping to "clear" the ACSES.. I've tried this a few times, testing different behaviors, and one time got that unrecoverable no power situation requiring scenario restart.. So.. How to brake with suppression, without slowing to almost stopping? Are you actually expected to Stop upon seeing a Stop, as ACSES suggests? When you see a Stop, and then contact Signaler for permission to pass, do you still need to stop before proceeding? Is there a bug here?
Sure. Will test that next time. As to the penalty.. I wasn't aware that ACSES is able to enfore ATC Signals, since the limit went to zero with an ACSES indicator after passing a stop, for which ATC switched to indicating Restricted. AFAIK, it is for track speeds and train limits. So that's a little confusing. In general, with the known fact that there are some errors in these system in TSW, trying to learn the correct real procedures, with chances of system being wrong here, can lead to confusion as to whether it's a bug, or I am missing an understanding.. Ah well
Ok, fair enough for enforcing Stop signals.. but it's way too early. I've read about problems with ACSES being overly aggressive.. This especially with Stops. In most recent example, there was a stop signal just before station.. Didn't even let me get close before stopping me. Reset, got clear to proceed restricted.. The next Stop was past the station platform, but ACSES didn't even let me get to the station before stopping me. You're not supposed to stop just past the preceding signal, but before passing the Stop. ACSES stops you at the previous signal. Unfortunately you can't selectively just disable ACSES without also ATC. It's annoying obviously. ACSES enforcing Stop signals is broken. It stops you too early for the purposes of the stop because of seemingly wrong distance calculations
Well, on the F40PH, I only see the Safety Devices circuit breaker as well as the single keyboard shortcut which toggles this. It toggles both the ATC and ACSES, together. Maybe you know something I don't
There are some "interesting" things that happen with ACSES from time to time, its not perfect. Anthony Pecoraro is right in the things he's said. You might find this helpful
So I can safely say, I narrowed this particular issue to ACSES not synchronizing with the Contact Dispatched button, who gives you a restricted cross permission. ACSES still sees it as a STOP. If you just wait for the signal to change, ACSES doesn't penalize you for crossing. - WRONG- I tried to confirm, but waiting for the signal to change doesn't happen. So need to do two stops, once before, then call, move past and then stop again to appease ACSES. Happens at all stop signals on this route.
It is possible you got a release to proceed at restricted speed when you should not have. Can you tell me the service, location and time it happened to you?
Sure, this is on the MBTA Foundations scenario. At the 186 mile marker on the way down to Providence. I thought I could wait for it to change and get by, but after 5 minutes, it didn't and had to call dispatch. So stopping before calling dispatch, or while moving or after, makes no difference. ACSES still thinks you need to stop and not allows a pass. Just like at every other Stop signal in this scenario: - Stop signal seen - ACSES to 0 - Very early before signal. - Inched forward closer and stopped before signal to wait. - Contacted Signaler - Given Restricted 20 on ATC - As soon as I pass, ACSES goes to 0. If I stop in time, I wait a bit and then resets back to ATC mode to continue. - ATC resets to 30 after stop past signal On a related note.. I assume you can slow down or stop as early or as close as you want as long as before the Stop. Is the ACSES correct in trying to stop you as early as indicated in the first screenshot?
Also the same thing occurs every time on the same service arriving at Canton Junction. Foundations scenario, Stop signal right in front of the platform. Slams on brakes early. Screenshot was after moving forward a bit. Then upon calling, getting restricted, moving past the Stop, get immediate penalty. Have to reset, then move forward again to correct location at platform.
You shouldn't have to slam on the brakes, only brake enough to make the suppression curve (this isn't the same as putting the handle in suppression) - brake hard enough to make the "suppression" light come on on the ADU. ACSES only wants you to slow down in time for the thing its telling you about. For example, if there is a 60mph limit in an upcoming curve where the speed limit is 90 that is ACSES, ATC (or more correctly ATCS) is the one giving you the speeds to meet the signals. I do see on your screen shots that the HUD is showing ACSES and zero but I suspect that isn't right, I think it should be showing ATC - what is the ADU saying? As for the penalty, I don't actually know what is enforced on MBTA but in the Melbourne network where I live, even if a train is given permission to pass a signal at danger, the signal protection still trips and a penalty brake is applied on the train which the driver then resets to continue. Edit: just realised I did not answer your question, normally a driver won't bring their train right up to a stop signal unless its at the end of a platform or if there is a local instruction, e.g. always come up close to 2709 because you will hang out over the junction behind you if you don't. Paul
I've had a play of this mike.obrebski and I expect the scenario is faulty. The path to the station stopping point is clear ahead. There are no trains coming from behind you into the station that the dispatcher might be holding you for. You should not have to tab through that signal. It should likely be at caution because of the route into a dead end platform road.
Thanks for the response, yea I did expect it to work as you describe ACSES working. In terms of braking, on the F40PH, the suppression light only seems to come on at full application. Though I have been slowing slower and making it without penalty even without suppression indicator on. ACS64 is a little more forgiving it seems. Will have to measure to know actual time, and set an analog clock with second to be visible. I guess you're suggesting, one must get used to being under the deceleration curve ACSES enforces, but without actually knowing if you are or not.. Mostly it's braking and hoping it won't penalize, like Russian roulette, which doesn't seem like a good way to run a train. As to stopping before Stop signal, I will try to brake slower and test the timing. As to stopping after passing a Stop even after permission, you are suggesting that it can be a normal procedure, which is interesting. To answer about whether HUD matches the ADU, yes it always does. It did indeed show 0, since it required a stop before the first Stop Signal, then after passing it, immediately. Stopping three times within a hundred feet of platform and while rolling towards it.
Ok, great of you to check. All logic to me indicated that stopping 3 times in close succession, for no discernable reason, didn't seem correct. BTW, tried a scenario planner run, and all signals leaving South Station were Stop, no dispatcher response, no change and a scenario fail due to passing stop. And there was no other traffic in scenario. Failing the scenario is worse than an extra stop. I've started to write reports in the appropriate, for specific issues like this.
I took your advice paul.pavlinovich about trying not to panic with slowing down for ACSES. It works fine on the ACS because the point of suppression is reasonable, and you can slow with either or both dynamic and automatic. It was more difficult with the F40PH, but getting the feel for it too.. Just with that one, to get the suppression indicator you need to brake pretty hard. So without the indicator lit, there is often still enough time it seems to not be extreme. Takes some getting used to and release without getting overly slow.
After playing through the scenario to see what happened, I did some braking experimentation too - and as long as I was meeting the curve I didn't have to go so hard that the suppression light came on. It does take some practice that's for sure. I absolutely confirmed your issue btw and now I'm going to do some research into whether ACSES would come into play for a red signal because I am not sure that it would. I think ATCS would come into play then. I also think getting a red without any warning is just plain wrong. The signal should be at caution. Paul
Yea. It's just in this case, it's enforcing a Stop that was given dispatcher permission to cross at restricted. So ACSES doesn't seem to be synchronized to those changes.
I've gotten much better with the braking due to your advice, and have been able to slow at a reasonable rate with no penalty. This does bring up a question though. And that is, what is the purpose of the Suppression indicator and the suppression setting on the brake, if you can still slow without penalty without needing to be in that setting. When do you need to use it? Also recorded the speed and elevation along the whole route and the turns enforcing slower speeds. Compared with Amtrak and MBTA. Difference is only top speed with 125, and 90. Also interestingly, a light and heavy Amtrak will differ in when ACSES prompts for reduction, so that seems to be working well. With these references, I can maintain good speeds and anticipate all changes.
Good to hear that this is working well for you. A much more comfortable ride for your passengers and less stressful for you. I suspect the confusion is the bandying about of terms particularly "suppression" that and I do not think that the ACSES/ATCS implementation is quite right. For example in the ACS-64 the display on the loco displays "suppression" long before the ACSES/ATCS ADU does. All you need to do is brake hard enough that you will make the target speed in the time frame that the ACSES/ATCS wants you to. Now how you figure out what that is, well I guess that's route knowledge? Paul
