Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by WonterRail, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Quite so. OTOH Gronks were everywhere, and this route apparently has vast shuntyards, just begging for some action....
     
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  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That will come with the Jinty DLC along with a few more wagon types, I expect!
     
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  3. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    It’s a fair point. I suppose, though, that 1958 wouldn’t feel much different to (say) 1960, and by then there would be plenty of 40s around, and 101s. In other words, they’re suitable for the general era and geographic location, even if they’re not strictly accurate for the exact year specified for this route. Incidentally, if I were DTG I wouldn’t specify the exact year in this way. It leaves them open to nit-picking (I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, by the way!) I’d just describe a route as being (taking this example) “late 1950s”.

    What would be the re-work required on the 101s, by the way? I’m not particular knowledgeable on any early modifications they had. I was thinking a re-paint and replacement seat moquette would pretty much do the trick in terms of significant visual changes, but perhaps not.
     
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  4. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’m hoping the tutorials do not start

    “Welcome to driver training” , look up, look down ,” coasting is an effective method etc etc.”

    I’d hope there’s a little “when this goes wrong try…” I’m wondering too whether this will be another asdw key festival only, must be more functionality
     
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  5. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    They already explained why they choose this route. It adds a lot of gameplay for mainline, commuter and freight. Who knows maybe there is a branchline too. In this case everybody gets his part of the cake to enjoy.

    Maybe they match your taste with the next steam route. Im very impressed, first to get a route nobody didnt expec at all ;), second the rolling stock looks damn cool. From what i saw of the wagons, we get plenty of freight traffic. So yea looking forward to it.

    Im sure dtg isnt gonna disappoint with their premiere, just hope they dont start to cut out areas because whatever reasons. The topic about research and the BR in the past i can understand, its a giant time effort just to get research and create all the tracklayout. Nice to see dtg puts that effort into a route.

    Thats why i think there is not a reason to be disappointed, they will make already existing routes for sure, makes also sense to save a lot of time with the research part.
    I can immagine they already plan few loco dlcs for adding additional locos. A Black 5 is coming probably with another route, but 3F makes a good choice for a separate loco dlc.

    41505931010_0686c7d6e1_c.jpg

    43315981081_52273ee936_c.jpg
     
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  6. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome benefit of the timetable mode! thanks to it we can have a steam only timetable in 1958 probably with addidional loco dlcs etc, and a combined timetable with diesel action in 1960-62.

    This calls for a gameplay dlc (and its worth a separate suggestion after release):

    - new timetable with diesel locos
    - Reworked locos for vacuum only and br green livery.

    The year which the route is set is perfect, while the rolling stock past few years has changed much, the area 4 years ahead has probably changed minor. (at least to not appear as fake like diesel legends).
     
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  7. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Route and loco choices are excellent, but I'm slightly concerned by not having a fully functional steam loco yet in-game with working sounds and particle effects if release is expected within several months. I would have thought such task would be completed months in advance to allow sufficient time to iron out any bugs and make improvements, especially in this case where it hasn't been done before.
     
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  8. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Even though I'm not a big fan of British steamers, these certainly look great. I'm really glad we'll get 2, for passenger and freight, so neither is neglected. I'm especially excited about the 8F freight services, as there's just a special charm about those old freight wagons. Hopefully there's a chance we'll see the NTP vans once again too.
    But the route itself seems bland. Apart from some iconic locations it's mostly just flat and straight, without any nice scenery to make it interesting. Especially the Crewe end looks kinda boring. The Liverpool area is better, but iconic stations at the ends of the line won't help much as that's not where you actually spend your time driving.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  9. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's clearly going to be a bugfest on release. By the time it's gonna be on -40% sale it should be playable.
    How can it be only months away if route building hasn't really started and they don not have a working steam loco in-game yet?

    Still, I'm happy steam is finally coming to TSW. Long overdue, looking forward to German steam locos!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I can't help thinking instead of the 8F a Ivatt 4MT or similar wouldn't have been a better 2nd loco. Reasoning being a 4MT would have been able to provide secondary passenger services as well as local freight, the downside of course would have been it would have ruled out the big heavy freight that the 8F can offer.

    Hopefully we get a DLC steam loco for local passenger services shortly after this release.
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That's why, 1. I reckon it will be Xmas which of course then leads into the possibility of no other UK route this year unless one of the third parties publishes something. 2. As I alluded to earlier seems far too ambitious for an unproved concept and something more modest should have been the first foray.

    Now further to my concerns about the correct type of moquette in the Mark Ones, this site is interesting:
    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw/moquette/1950s.html
    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw/moquette/1960s.html

    As can be seen the colour schemes popularly associated with Mark One coaches such as candy stripe (orange smoking, green non smoking), Trojan and the blue seat coverings did not come about until the 60's. Yes maybe I am getting obsessed about this but I love Mark Ones and as an aficionado want to see them done right. Strictly speaking, for the era, walking through the smoking sections or compartments there should be a thick haze in the air, as everyone was lighting up back then.
     
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  12. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, simply because I feel like the 8F is a bit too similar to the Jubilee in terms of it's design and looks. A 4MT would stand out a bit more and feel a little more unique.
     
  13. johnwatson85

    johnwatson85 New Member

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    It's a good choice for me, i'll be able to bunk all the 3 sheds and not have to look out for the foreman, although i never did get thrown out.
    Happy days
     
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  14. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Here's some footage of the Jubilee Class Leander tackling the Lickey Incline (the steepest incline on Network Rail) without a banking engine in 2006. While it's low quality it shows the sheer power of this class far better than words can. I'm sharing this because it's not often locos are pushed to their limits like this when in preservation. You can hear Leander long before it actually shows up, and the sound is something DTG HAVE to nail. It's absolutely relentless. And they'll have a huge job replicating the steam it's letting off. I'm not sure the PS4 and Xbox One can handle what's shown here.

    Definitely listen with headphones...
     
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  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Think I can split my concerns into three main areas:
    1. Performance. We have already seen with Sherman Hill that a swathe of plain terrain with high poly grass out to the horizon can bring the game to a crawl. Likewise London to Brighton with the massive pauses and sound drop outs, particularly when running at speed.
    2. Operations. I would like to hear from Matt how they intend to manage terminus in and out working at Lime Street. Some trains will re-engine for outward workings while others will be to/from the carriage sidings. Either way every incoming train is going to need a turnover loco with the inward loco having to be turned and serviced before a later working. We have already seen from West Cornwall that this can go wrong, with the intended outbound loco running into the arrival platform and blocking it, if the incoming train is late.
    3. Signalling/AI/Saving. Again we have seen from BML and the Riesa German route that the signalling AI can easily be overpowered. Matt was talking in the stream about the massive semaphore gantries and I have to wonder if the game in its current state can manage it, even if trains are confined to certain paths and lines. Likewise, unless the save game mechanism gets a fix, highly unlikely you will be able to resume reliably. Could be one reason why a shorter route was chosen as Crewe to Liverpool calling at Runcorn will be under an hours run.
     
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  16. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward to the route and locos.
    The signalling sounds like a challenge - I'm just really hoping they simulate absolute block signalling.
    Would be nice to hear if the team are trying to simulate this.
     
  17. olsbyn

    olsbyn Active Member

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    This looks nice and very possible a day one purchase from me to.
    I'm not familiar with the route or area, I was initially hoping for a port of Riviera in the 50s, but new content is very welcome, we can't have all TS ports either, imo they should just stop all the porting for a while and present some fresh and new content :)
     
  18. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    They will certainly need to simulate absolute block signalling to be able to re-create this route in 1958. They've done it before, on NTP, but it doesn't work properly - it has a tendency to give a signal at danger without there having been a signal at caution protecting it, often resulting in an unavoidable SPAD. They'll need to address that issue for this route to work (hopefully they'll fix NTP at the same time, but it tends not to work that way).
     
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  19. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Route building has started. Matt said last night that the track is laid and the signals are placed (but without the final signal artwork yet). Most of the route doesn't have scenery yet and there's still lots to do but it seems wrong to say that they haven't started the route building yet. Also, iirc Matt said that the class 09 has been converted to a makeshift steam loco for initial development and testing of steam locos in TSW2, so they do have a (presumably mostly) working steam loco in the game, just not one that they could show us. Also, Matt has previously told us about how the frame rate dropped to single figures on initial testing at over 10 mph due to the work that simugraph had to do (they have worked since then to improve efficiency, but that implies that the 09 was functioning enough to see that poor performance...).

    I'm sure that there will be a bunch of improvements made after release, but I'm also fairly certain that I'll be buying it on pre-release :D
     
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  20. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a good mix. The section from Crewe to Weaver Junction is pretty flat and straight, giving an opportunity for some fast running. Once through Weaver Junction, it's a stiff climb (1:151 / 1:101) to Sutton Weaver, followed by a steep descent (mostly 1:115) through Runcorn to Ditton Junction. Then you're climbing again, not quite as steeply, as far as Wavertree Junction. After that there's the very steep descent from Edge Hill into Lime St (a proper challenge in the opposite direction, with a steam loco with a heavy load).

    Line speeds are high at the southern end, and lower the closer you are to Lime Street. Lots of variety, and different kinds of challenge.
     
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  21. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    There are little windows you can look out of to see down the train, not super amazing but still good, it would be nice if this was a camera position that could be selected while in the brake van :)
    Brake Van.png
     
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  22. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    What stations went along this way back then?
     
  23. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think Matt and the team are very brave in their choice, given the higher graphical demands of TSW.
    Especially when they are struggling with historical authenticity and the fragmented nature of the records.

    The potential for outrage over the minutest detail is enormous and they are bound to miss, overlook or omit something regardless of the new implementation of steam.
    Looking forward to it all.
     
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  24. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    From what I could count, this route will have 13 stations. These include (Including those that are now closed):
    • Crewe
    • Hartford
    • Acton Bridge
    • Runcorn
    • Ditton Junction (Renamed simply Ditton in 1973, closed in 1994)
    • Halebank (Closed in September of the same year this route is set in)
    • Allerton (Closed in 2005, reopened in 2006 as Liverpool South Parkway)
    • West Allerton
    • Mossley Hill
    • Sefton Park (Closed in 1960)
    • Edge Hill
    • Liverpool Line Street
    There's probably more that I missed, but that's all the stations that probably existed back then.
     
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  25. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Very happy for someone to correct me, but having done some Wikipedia research and checking some historical OS maps:

    1) Crewe
    2) Winsford
    3) Hartford
    4) Acton Bridge
    through Weaver Junction
    5) Runcorn
    6) Ditton Junction
    7) Halebank (closed September 1958)
    through Speke Junction
    8) Allerton
    9) West Allerton
    10) Mossley Hill
    11) Sefton Park
    12) Wavertree
    through Edge Hill marshalling yard
    13) Edge Hill
    14) Liverpool Lime Street

    Most stations appear to have a small goods yard of some description so I am really hoping to see some local pickup goods action (although we don't really have any appropriate locomotives for it yet).
     
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  26. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    I should start by saying that I like the novel choice of route and I'm really excited to finally have steam in TSW2. Having said that, I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a smaller loco included for shunting or local trains (passenger or freight)? I think it would look a bit odd to have a Jubilee on a stopping local service, or a 8F doing pick-up / drop-off goods trains. Speaking of, I hope that a van will be included with the goods wagon selection as well - all of the other basics appear to be covered.

    Perhaps we can expect a number of loco DLC to bulk out the roster - I really hope so. Stanier 4MT tank or 3F Jinty for some local services (hopefully with some more appropriate, older carriages than the Mk1s)?

    A Black Five would surely be an easy win as well given the similarity to the Jubilees and the existing collaboration with BMG. Checking shed allocations for Crewe and Edge Hill around this time shows them to be very common.

    Obviously we already have an express locomotive but does anyone know if the Coronation class went to Liverpool this way or were they restricted to WCML workings towards Scotland?

    In any case - brilliant start, really looking forward to this. Hope we see more steam routes to help catch up a bit to the modern stuff in the future! I'm convinced that steam will attract a whole new audience to TSW who are currently still stuck with TS20xx.
     
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  27. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    You have obviously never seen BR WR steam before it was being run down then, pre-1965.
     
  28. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I still think there will need to be a steam density and quality slider added. Xbox and PS4 need to start correctly managing their expectations now or they’ll be whining about fps
     
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  29. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    Coronations did go to Liverpool, and indeed I think at one time some of the heaviest expresses were actually allocated a Coronation on a regular basis. However, Jubilees were much more common in the era represented.

    I agree that something is needed for local services. A 4MT tank would be superb, but I’d be happy with a 101 at release, as an easier option.
     
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  30. thomastl59374

    thomastl59374 Well-Known Member

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    I swear Matt said they had a gronk that was being run on steam, plus they showed us the two steam Simigraphs and that it was just a case (a long and complex 'just a case') of refining them and putting them into the models of steam locos. Also the fact that it is looking like there will be few DTG releases coming up they may be putting the majority of their resources into making steam. They said they have all the parts but know they just need to fit it together. I excpect we won't have to wait that long until we see screenshots of working steam locos.

    This will definetly be a day one purchase for me unless I hear that on Xbox one I physically can't load into the route. I haven't set my expectations massively high, as long as it sounds right, drives right and looks right at first I'll be happy. If it doesn't work on the Crewe route I'll have ago on NTP or GWE.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  31. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    So it's 1958, if it's a route full of MK1 coaching stock. As usual it will be totally wrong. pre-BR stock was in use well into the mid 1960's.
     
  32. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm some interesting developments, but I wonder how sustainable steam releases are going to be considering how much workload such a route requires and with this release potentially being ages away? Obviously, having third-party developers will hopefully give us a few other new routes and/or loco DLC to look forward too for those of us not into steam in the meantime.
     
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  33. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    Really like the choices made, it’ll give us some really good locos to start.

    I wonder if they can give us a clean livery in addition so we can use them for off the rails rail-tours, or even have them added to the timetabled rail-tours we already have on other routes.

    probably not prototypical, but in scenario planner I hope the can 8F stand in for passenger duties and represent filling in for a failed loco?

    lastly, the wagons are in bauxite colour meaning they’re braked stock. One day i wonder Will we get the chance to drive unbraked stock? that will add a whole new layer of experience to driving.
     
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  34. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Great, great choice, so looking forward to this. Would also love to see a jinty, but an all-over green class 24/0, class 40 or a gronk would not go amiss. The class 101 has been done to death (sorry), but a different 1st gen DMU would not be unwelcome.
     
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  35. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If we get a 101 then we might as well have a GWR HST substitute in for the Jubliee then and a cl37 on pick up freight. As these would be equally unprototypical as a 101
     
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  36. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You can't seriously expect DTG to include multiple designs of coaches on their first DLC? I'll be satisfied as long as a get some type of 1st class, a 2nd class, either a kitchen or buffet (or similar), a brake and a parcels. Although I'd excuse a parcels stock on day1
     
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  37. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm really excited about the arrival of steam, but it's certainly going to challenge many players' hardware. Steam, smoke and sparks notwithstanding, steam engines have a lot of moving parts. Add to that the number of unique controls in the cab. Then there's the fire box. Lots of unique physics and visual effects to model.
    For PC, we have the means to control the graphics levels. Console players have less flexibility unless DTG introduces the kinds of controls that other console games have. For all players, there will no doubt be " simple/expert " versions and an auto fireman.
    Either way it should be interesting and, for this first effort, while expectations will be high, we should expect some teething problems and temper our criticisms accordingly
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A class 101 would not be accurate anyway, they weren't common in the north west at that time, not that, that necessarily seems to be a barrier going on previous releases. A class 108 would be a far more suitable option.

    I agree something like a Ivatt flying pig for the second engine might have been better as it could be used on local passengers and freight.

    I really hope we get something for local services, I assume 4mt tanks or maybe a class 2 or 4 tender engine. Something other than mark 1's would be good, they certainly would have been rare if not unknown on local stopping services, ex mainline stock cascaded down or non corridor stock would be suitable.

    I think it will be great on release and I am very much looking forward to it, but I think it will get a bit stale after a while without some add-ons.
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Matt did say that the original steam simugraph had been applied to an 09 shell, but of course having a working simugraph is only one part of the battle
    They then have to match all the inputs to the correct inputs in game, then make sure the inputs and outputs all match, then match the outputs in game. Then all the sounds, smoke, effects etc
    And that's with it standing still...
    "just a case" makes it sound simple and quick, but it's unlikely it will be
     
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  40. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    One thing that I would expect in a route from this era, is a switcher/shunter, to move freight and passenger stock around in the yards and stations. My knowledge of UK rail is limited, but I would imagine these locos were fairly common back then.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That aspect actually concerns me the least- because, although those massive racks of semaphores will be relatively complex visual assets, the actual signaling system itself was much simpler than modern 4-aspect signals, or PZB. Basically it's Stop or Go, with advance signals showing caution or not in synch with the main signal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There were literally a thousand of them. As in, shortly after BR was formed they ordered 1012 Gronks to replace the existing steam shunters on a one-for-one basis. A decade later there would have been a mixture in service (the turnover wasn't completed until 1962)

    ^This doesn't count the many privately-owned shunters in factory railyards and the like
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  43. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Yep there is a standard van too, didn't show it as it's not really much different to the NTP one but it is included.

    And yes, you can sit in the window seat on the brake van. :)

    Matt.
     
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  44. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    Not really. It should be a 108, but realistically, if we're getting a Jubilee and an 8F, there aren't going to be any other new trains in the initial release, so that means no stopping services, which is a real shame. There are no existing TSW trains which could form such stopping trains with 100% realism, but the closest is the 101. The 101 and 108 are pretty similar from a Driver's perspective (and also look pretty similar) - unlike an HST and a Jubilee.

    If DTG can be permitted to use Mark 1s instead of older stock (which I agree, is a completely reasonable compromise) then a 101 instead of a 108 sits in the same category for me.

    It's really a question of use the 101, or have no local services at all. I fully understand some people would prefer to have no local services, but I'm just expressing my preference which is to use the 101 - and hopefully a new DLC can bring us something strictly correct at a later date.
     
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  45. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Kettles aren't my thing but I am looking forward to seeing them as I'll just be riding as a passenger and if modelled, sitting in the beer garden of the Hazel Pear Inn, Acton Bridge (if it existed in 1958!?!) watching the trains pass, as I do nowadays in the Summer time.

    It's also great to see a break van included, wanted to see one of those in game for a long time.

    It would be good if they created two timetables, one for 1958 and one for BR Green.
     
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  46. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Mk1's did service on the line around this era, admittedly they wouldnt have been the only carriage stock in use, but on London Expresses they definately would have been around by 1958.

    The 101 never ran anywhere near Liverpool in the era and would be totally wrong. Id rather have no local services then a wrong local service. Buts thats just my opinion.
     
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  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Mark 1's would have been common by then as they had been produced since the early 50's and top link expresses like WCML services would have been their domain. Obviously Stanier stock would still have been seen too.

    As for the class 101 it looks quite different to a class 108, different cab design, different drivers desk, the 108 had deeper windows.

    There should be a local service, personally I would like to see a suitable steam engine and stock as a DLC add-on rather than a class 101. Not having local services would be a bit barmy in my opinion. But I concede I would take a class 101 over nothing but it wouldn't be accurate whereas mark 1's on express trains are very representative of a late 50's express train.

    I just think over time it will be desirable to see more than a Jubilee and 8F as I think what is going to be a stunning add-on and one eagerly anticipated will get stale after a while.
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Looking at some P3 coach images, must admit would have been nice to see these in the game. Hopefully in a DLC along with a Duchess or Royal Scot.
     
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  49. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    As a station player I was already quite skeptical about this route, but this just looks a bit dull to me.
     
  50. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    "oh it's only a Black 5" - for shame sir, do you have a pulse? Spent my childhood running between New Street and Snow Hill stations because some one said there was a King on the Liverpool run. And I want the grime - would not be real without it. And on the subject of sound, I want the journal ring and the characteristic grinding noise of a heavy loco moving slowly past on jointed rail.
     
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