Train Sim World 2 - Roadmap Update 25/01/2022

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Jan 25, 2022.

  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Easier said than done. Whilst I do get what your saying, Grand Central is massive and it probably would've taken dtg a while to model the station along with the shortened version of the Harlem line itself which also takes time. If that was the case then perhaps the line should've gone to southeast which is where the electrified section ends (effectively the last stop for the M3A/M7A) instead of North White Plains.
     
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  2. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    What interests me, do we get the entire preservation update with the upcoming expansion pack? Or is it just pis?

    By the way i noticed in winter, the tharandter rampe doesnt have the nice snowy platforms like dresden or west somerset. Is it left for the preservation crewe, or did dtg "just hadnt time" again?
     
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  3. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Although that is true the outstanding issue here is they are not the patches that we have been eagerly waiting for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  4. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’m truly hoping that Sam and Matt don’t end up having to waste their time on another reflective apology stream and the updates in whatever order start filtering through. Likewise Nat and Adam shouldn’t need to think “oh it’s Tuesday , here we go again”. We know it’s unlikely none of the four above are roadblocks so internally a solution just needs the trigger pulling and a release date given, committed to
     
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  5. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Things are looking like they're trending that way, but I am hoping that they do something about it sooner rather than later.
     
  6. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I got some hopes after Boston and Dresden received quick fixes and updates, and was hoping that the situation would finally get better, but that seemed to have been a weird exception because already for London Brighton there are major issues outstanding. Tharandter Rampe is quite fresh, but there are also major issues outstanding (like level crossings for example) that haven’t even been acknowledged but would require a quick fix rather than waiting 2 years maybe. So those hopes were crushed quickly and we are back to things not being released for months and years to come.
     
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  7. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    So does anyone think the new swiss route will be the same as arosa/chur with 1000m track because some where it was suggested it might be a standard 1435m gauge instead.
     
  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not going to disagree that it's a stupid premise, but why people are buying a product isn't the product maker's concern really, so if people are "buying something because it may get fixed" is as silly as dating someone and thinking they'll change for you

    I think you missed a word out... "Free". Fortnite makes millions so likely can afford to have a better "agreement" (see money exchange) than DTG. Basing transactions on the highest denominator hardly ever works.
     
  9. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    It is the product maker's concern. If people are buying older products on the understanding the problems with it will be fixed eventually and this does not happen, people will pretty quickly get wise to this and not buy a substandard product from that maker again. And it will hurt the company's sales.

    The Preserved Crew exists because the idea that older routes won't age badly compared to newer routes generates additional sales of the add-ons.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    So the question is, what happens now? Are we going to have the same conversations and excuses every couple of weeks on streams? It’s obvious that DTG are well aware of the current issues, but the million dollar question is, when is action actually going to take place? It seems like we’re having the same conversations for several months now, but nothing is actually moving forward.
     
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  11. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    My only hope is that enough of a fuss is kicked up and Dovetail will see that is in their own interests to allocate more resources to QA testing to relieve the release bottleneck. I'm not confident though, I just watched an old roadmap stream at random from 6 April 2021 between Adam and Sam, and exactly the same issues with a lack of spaces for testing came up, in that case the Long Island Rail Road update was completed by Adam in February, but had yet to be tested. This update was eventually released on 11 May 2021
     
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  12. TrainSim-Adam

    TrainSim-Adam Staff Member

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    OK, lets all calm down on the 'popularity is an insult' line shall we. There are many ways the order can be arranged. We've seen Alphabetical and Popularity so far, purely from an admin perspective. We asked on stream for community input for the very reason that we agree the current line up doesn't feel right and we want to know what you'd like. Which ever way the releases get ordered, there are going to be some pleased and some disappointed. It's not possible to please everyone at the same time (unless we released every update in one go and that's not going to happen).

    I've already suggested grouping things on a region basis might be a good idea, however we can't just group every update for a particular region into one release because that becomes too much for QA to process in a single pass.

    There is activity already. Peninsula Corridor, the MP36 and the MP15 are currently going through testing and my team are working with QA to get these passed and ready for release.

    Releasing all the large updates first because they'll make the biggest difference makes sense, however that means 'small' things like the Rapid Transit PZB fix has to wait = bad!
    Releasing all the small updates first because they're quicker to process and less risky also makes sense, however that means some routes will have seen several updates over time while others are still awaiting their first = bad!
    Releasing a mixed order of large and small updates therefore is the middle ground. We could easily decide for ourselves, but we want to involve the community in this, so here we are having the discussion :)
     
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  13. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    How about a voting system? Everytime a fix is ready to go further into the QA-->release pipeline it can be added to the list, everytime something is released it gets removed from the list. Let everyone just click the things they want released, and whenever there's an opportunity for a release slot, release those with most votes. Some popular items will likely to get votes in fast, the less popular items will stay on the list for longer (but also have more time to slowly accumulate votes, so should end up on top sometime eventually)

    I have seen such a system somewhere for a game to deal with popular suggestions, but unfortunately I cannot remember which game it was. :|
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I have been responding on the belief that you have fixes that have been tested and are waiting for release. Are we at the position that none of the preserved crew's work since before Rush Hour has even passed testing? Please to god let me be wrong...
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But they've already made a sale... and the way of it is on the consumer, not the company.
    If I buy a V6 in the hope that at the next service they'll fit a V12... That's my problem
     
  16. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    Whichever order that means the updates can be tested and released most efficiently and quickly. I have many routes on the preservation crew update list, and have been holding off playing them until they get updated, some for as long as 8 months. So any would be good, i'd just like something released
     
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  17. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    If we try to solve the ordering issue, we are are solving the wrong thing. The real problem seems to be twofold:

    1. Limitations to the release schedule. Lot's of paperwork and limited amount of slots.
    2. The way development is organized with all kinds of specialists and a separate QA team.

    It is hard to keep this all in balance. Into my opinion there is a better way, but it is up to DTG to organize their process. In present day software development, we work with multidisciplinary teams that are responsible for the whole product, including quality.Each team member may have one or two core skills, but they must at least have some knowledge on other topics. E.g. the track laying expert may do signalling and game play as well. Maybe not as good as the expert, but good enough to support an expert and give feedback from his own discipline. The team makes the product release ready and this includes testing. Part of their time each team should work on improving their way of working, eg. automate testing and so on.

    A bit loose coupled from the teams their can be chapters or communities focussing on specific expertise, like game play, track laying and so. These teams drive innovations and make sure each individual employee can learn new stuff.

    There should be a small QA team. But what it does is nothing more than accept the product from the devs to go live and sell it. From this perspective the community manager, helpdesk and release team are part of the QA team.

    In this way you need far less management as well.

    You also can make teams responsible for the preserved collection, that is each team gets a set of routes they should maintain and update where needed. This also means the teams are responsible to fix their bugs as well.

    With this style of work a team can have ma maximum of 9 developers plus a product owner who sets priorities and a scrum master, who makes sure the team works together in an optimal way.

    For the release schedule: automate it. Make releases small and less work and release every week. It may take some time to discuss with the partners, but consider TSW2 as a game platform and each DLC as a game.

    I have a lot of experience with this way of working as a product owner. My team released about 20 changes every two weeks and we did 4-6 large projects in a year. We had a release schedule with four teams. It started on Monday and the process accepted only tested and approved stuff. On Tuesday the release dev ran an pre-release test and on Thursday the release would go live. By setting clear criteria (necessary, because it is a customer administration for 2 million customers, including a billing engine), this process runs extremely smooth. You do not get this for free. The devs worked two years to automate the process step-by-step with every month an improvement.
     
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  18. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    The analogy doesn't work because in the cases you are talking about the company only wishes to make a single sale to you in your lifetime. I think Dovetail's business model relies on you making multiple purchases with them over the course of many years. That relies on consumer confidence. But using your example if you buy a car and expect it to be a V12 and it is not you are likely to leave a bad review saying "don't expect this car to be a V12!" and other customers will take note
     
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  19. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that's the case. The release slots thing comes up every once in a while when talking about preserved crew work, but the real bottleneck seems to be testing.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    OK, Anyone looks up "DTG" on steam will see their business model. If they search "Dovetail Flywheel" they'll get another insight...
    But back to "expectation", don't use it as a purchase strategy as it will almost always fail
     
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  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Then it's a more serious "concern" than DTG are making out. That would mean no fixes tested for approx six months.
     
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  22. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Unless the company has promised that 'old' products sold in the past, will be updated to the new technology standards, and has created a preservation crew to do that job. In such a case, when V12 comes the standard for new products, we as a consumer can expect the company to update our old V6 products up to the new V12 standard, for free, as they promised us.
     
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  23. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    you test very longtime
     
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  24. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    This makes me happy, because I've been wanting to dive into Peninsula but have been holding off until the (it seemed) imminent preservation pass came through.

    And as always, insights from the people behind the scenes are most welcome. Thanks for taking the time to post.
     
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  25. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    I think it’s safe to assume that testing has become such a bottleneck because DTG is an independent publisher having based its income on a few hobbyist titles developed internally. They always prioritize new releases to keep the wheels of the publishing arm turning, and they don’t have several development studios to rely on for income, like many other publishers in the gaming industry. I’m afraid this business model will always be at odds with the very valuable concept of post-release support.

    On one of the recent streams the topic of “how to keep new players coming back” was raised in the context of making the simulation more accessible to newcomers. On the other hand, if you want to keep experienced players coming back, invest more in post-release support of existing content. Maybe then I’d actually start buying TSW DLC at full price instead of 50% off.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  26. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If you read the product description it makes no such promise and states the preserved collection is as it was in TSW2020. Anything over that is a bonus
     
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  27. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    It has been suggested both on roadmaps and especially roadmap streams what was the intended with the preservation crew updates. I believe that's where the information came from. Maybe people watched those before purchasing certain add-ons?
     
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  28. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I'd just bypass the QA anyway, I mean there have been many instances where obvious glaring bugs/glitches/problems etc. have been missed by QA and been spotted by the community within hours of release.

    Fix it > release to community > We report issues within hours
    Repeat

    :D
     
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  29. ormondroydj

    ormondroydj Member

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    Absolutely, especially when within steam there is an option to have an "opt-in beta", and a separate beta bug forum could be set up to report problems so as not to flood the main technical report forum with beta bugs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  30. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I believe it was also stated on trainsimworld.com website when TSW2 was just released. I cannot find that version of the FAQ anmore, as the whole website seems to be overhauled and advertises Rush Hour, which is no longer being sold...

    DTG Natster perhaps the website needs an update...
    upload_2022-1-27_13-47-53.png
     
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  31. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    No, just no. Last time they released a poorly tested preservation update it caused a backlash bad enough to provoke an internal investigation. At least that’s what we were told.

    Some of the routes awaiting preservation updates are playable in their current shape. Running the risk of them becoming unplayable is not worth it. They promised QA improvements, so let them show it.
     
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  32. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well, at least your are persistent.
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That's probably what happened which is understandable. Why buy a defective product that has issues when you can buy the same product down the line when it's fixed up.
     
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  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That can't happen because Sony and Microsoft do NOT permit public betas.
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the "player vote" model for sequencing update releases, is that it doesn't take size into consideration. As Adam posted above, updates vary in size from tiny to huge, and they need somehow to be grouped into packages of roughly equal size.
     
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  36. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    The only reason it can't happen is because DTG insists on treating all platforms equally. However, if a Steam beta branch could find potential bugs before it needs through QA, it may speed up the process and thus indirectly help getting stuff released sooner, and that benefits console players as well, even if they don't have access to the beta themselves.
     
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  37. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    But at least a "player vote" model could help with determining the popularity of updates. It doesn't necessarily need to be the only thing being taken into account to determine a release schedule, but it may be useful when also combining it with update size and whatever :P

    At least it prevents a situation that DLC remains unpopular because it receives no updates.
     
  38. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I agree I do not see "Player Vote" style working, as the files sizes of some the downloads vary. Doing it by region also is not necessarily a good idea either.

    Possibly mixing some small ones in with the bigger ones might work and get things out the door quicker.
     
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  39. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    The only issue with that is that something popular to one may not be popular with another, either way which ever way is chosen people are going to be disappointed.

    Added: they some routes are not as popular for me yes there are routes I have not played as much. But that is due to the fact that I am waiting for them to release raildriver support to the remaining loco's.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  40. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    This "SIZE" is more about QA capacity to evaluate changes.
    Player Vote is totaly off, I will never vote for addon that is not in my collection and popular routes will be on top with every small fix done and listed as candidate for QA and realease. More important is to allocate QA resources for Preservation Crew and don't let main devs to consume it! It's allways better to put out even very small fixes on regular basis than 6 months of nothing...
     
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  41. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Having any kind of community feedback to determine the order updates come out has hopefully been abandoned now. The only people who know all the parameters covering what has been fixed, whIch updates have been done, the size of potential release updates and whether an update release fits in with the whole QA, packaging and release schedule is DTG themselves. They need to determine the best way of getting as many fixes and updates to the players based on all the above and how long a fix or update has been completed and waiting to get through the system. The players can only complicate this system with their input.

    DTG just need to get on with it and release the updates in the best way they can manage and handle. It’s not going to be popular whatever happens so we may as well just see what comes out and the order will be what it is. It’s also up to DTG to set up some sort of strategy to ensure this doesn’t drag on indefinitely and doesn’t become such a nightmare ever again. We can’t help them do that either. I’m whacking the ball firmly into their half of the court on this matter.
     
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  42. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    That's not completely true, at least for Xbox. I know both PUBG and Overwatch, at least, have had separate Xbox apps for their public test realms. There's also Xbox Game Preview, which is where TSW originally launched on console- but i'm not sure if they can launch DLC through that channel.

    It would probably be a lot of work on DTG's end, but maybe it would be worth it? I think they'd be worried about not being able to do the same on Playstation (and the ensuing blowback), but the architecture is so similar that i'd think an Xbox beta would be a help for PS too in the long run.
     
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  43. geisonplays

    geisonplays New Member

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    Have you ever thought about doing some Scandinavian DLC (Scandinavia is beautiful, specially Norway). And a soth American or Brazilian DCL like São Paulo Metro and south Brazilian train routes like Curitiba... Well It train WORLD simulator and there's nothing in south America
     
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  44. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    All things considered I am not in the slightest bit bothered about which order the updates arrive in, as long as they are indeed arriving. If I have to wait longer for my favourite routes to get updated as there are other more significant issues elsewhere to be resolved then so be it.
     
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  45. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    or like you said they could have expanded the route as well, but either way, I'm kinda surprise to hear that it would take this long. Hopefully they might surprise us, by extending it, or something else. I believe the current LIRR Route, that we got is the full route, but i am not sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  46. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    i think Adam's should expand their QA Team, basically train more people. I wish i have the skill to help them, but unfortunately, i don't. I think the real reason why the hold up is because of how small their team is, the more people they have with the right skill, the quicker the community gets what they want, but I am guessing it's hard. Do you think, it's because they are not getting paid?
     
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  47. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Player votes on updates? Thats the 2nd craziest idea I heard this week.

    What next DTG to put a list of 6 possible DLCs out and we all vote which one they make? I know lets make it a weekly youtube slot and we can have features etc about each possible route shown each one under Matt, Sam or Adam, the bottom 2 go into a weekly vote by us to see which route gets knocked off the list?
     
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  48. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    Quite the same here.
    I dont have all routes, but i will be happy if things advance for all. So dont care about order as long as it dont take a year.
     
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  49. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps when considering the order of releasing items we can go back to the original idea about the severity of bugs/importance of fixes determining the order of priority:

    1. Can you play the game at all? Crashes etc
    2. Does it stop functioning? Safety systems, signals etc
    3. Does it look/sound bad?
    4. Is it adding additional/improved functionality?

    And as a tiebreaker only, which route is it and which country is it from? - balancing out the releases of similar priority fixes.
     
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  50. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Adam
    The order of release doesn't matter. Just start releasing the fixes rather than talking about them! No way to please everybody, but DTG might as well start pleasing someone.
     
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