Train Sim World 2 - Roadmap Update 25/01/2022

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Jan 25, 2022.

  1. kosti.nuuja

    kosti.nuuja Well-Known Member

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    upload_2022-1-27_21-41-40.png
    upload_2022-1-27_21-42-12.png
    The new Swiss route will include Lucerne. It can be standard gauge or narrow gauge route...
     
  2. Zugfanschweiz

    Zugfanschweiz New Member

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    The new swiss route could be Luzern-Engelberg or Luzern-Lenzburg.
     
  3. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I did infact say 'if' there was a fix. Surely if you buy a DLC and there is a problem, bug that affects gameplay you would expect a 'fix' for it no? Or am I being self entitled?

    If I am selling a product and it needs a 'fix' and I do not provide one making customers unhappy how do you think that would affect future sales? imo I would expect to lose customers and rightly so in my view.

    Adam, it seems strange you haven't mentioned the fairest way of releasing the updates and that is in the order the routes were released. So the route waiting the longest gets the fix first. I'm sure no-one would object to that. Or as seems to me we are being fobbed off yet again and hoping to cause a division amongst the community.

    DTG need to start releasing the fixes before their player base starts falling. And why they couldn't release all the loco's waiting for RD support in one go is baffling, especially after the last 6 months they have been telling us how easy it is to do. I wish DTG would realise that people waiting for these fixes just want to enjoy the game but many are deciding to not purchase any more DLC until the fixes are released which seems reasonable to me.
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect anything from anyone other than companies I work for to pay me what they're contracted to... So I don't expect fixes, I tend to work with what I have and if I don't like it I don't buy further product. But I don't then spend the next six months complaining about what I haven't got that in reality I never had

    The "fairest" would be to fix the longest standing bugs rather than in release date for routes. Some bugs have been caused by later updates, but in routes that have been out for longer
     
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  5. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    Thoroughly agree, DTG are already unpopular because these updates have been in limbo land for several months. They need to bite the bullet and accept they're going to get the flak because some vociferous punters don't get "their" updates as early as they wished.

    I have some sympathy for DTG as the intent was to bring earlier DLC up to the standards of newer ones. Sadly, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     
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  6. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    We get updates for released routes, thats all that matters to me to be honest. its ready when its ready. It makes sense when dlcs are upcoming to priorise them (harlem line / lirr preservation update) in this case.
     
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  7. tibomatthijs

    tibomatthijs Well-Known Member

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    There was said (long time ago) that things on the roadmap are listed in how they will release. Not sure if that is the same by 3rd parties but; the unknow Swiss route is above Horseshoe Curve, does that mean the Swiss route is that close already or is Horseshoe Curve just delayed that mch, or aren't they listed in how they'll release?
    upload_2022-1-27_23-15-17.png
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I get the feeling that HSC was sent back to SHG with lots and lots of red pencil.
     
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think and am thankful that between them (likely DTG) have pulled rank and said this is not going to fly with our community.

    That said , it may be more financial risk to skyhook but likely longer term value teaching them new tricks and giving them the confidence to deliver more. Someone will always find fault but if it releases with less overall issues I'm all for it
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  10. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Yes and i like the fact dtg is supporting 3rd party even closer. In the end i want skyhook to succeed, and would be pretty bad advertisement for this franchaise, if a 3rd party stopps making content.
     
  11. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Narrow Gauge route out of Lucerne is a Rack railway Riggenbach system the Brünig Bahn. That requires update to have working rack equipped locomotives in the game
     
  12. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    A Rack railway would be nice. Its just requiring proper physic setup. Im not questioning if rivet would be capable of, i question if they would go into such detail as required, to make a real experience out of it.

    So my guess is, the route is based on a 1435mm gauge.
     
  13. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Find that helpful since SBB CFF FFS selected locomotives can change German routes due to them being 1.435m tracks
     
  14. ottselmaster

    ottselmaster Well-Known Member

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    Feels like its dragging on for nearly a year now. Yet every stream its "Oh its been done FOR MONTHS"
     
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  15. Es4t

    Es4t Active Member

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    The preservation crew should prioritise updates in the order that the original routes were released in. Simples!

    Also, don’t release anything else until Adam and his team have caught up…they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place atm
     
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  16. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    Let’s look at how things have changed for QA over the past few years.

    Once upon a time QA was necessary for two products – Train Simulator and Fishing. Then DTG introduced Train Sim World (TSW) so now QA was needed for three products .Subsequently they added the generation 8 consoles to the party which required different hardware and also had more restrictive memory constraints so I’m treating them as additional products in their own right. Now QA was not only needed for five products but also all the existing PC DLC needed to go through QA as well. Perhaps DTG added one or two more staff or maybe they just farmed out the short term peak to third parties.

    Train Sim World 2 (TSW2) then appeared and with it the issue of legacy TSW DLC. As part of the drive to persuade existing users to not only migrate to the new platform but also pay for the privilege DTG promised that all existing DLC would also be migrated at no extra cost to users. Enter the Preserved Crew and Adam. During this period whilst QA were still supporting five products they also needed to cope with revamped versions of existing TSW DLC but this was probably still manageable.

    Meanwhile the TSW2 developers had increased their expertise and were now introducing new and improved features to new TSW2 DLC that weren’t present in migrated TSW DLC. The decision was made that Adam’s team would continue in being to retrofit these new and improved features as well as conduct a deep dive to rectify various issues that appeared during the initial migration as well long standing bugs. I suspect by now there had been some small permanent increase to QA staffing but since DTG is a business any increase will have been the bare minimum that could be financially justified. QA still only had five products but also had some additional reworked DLC from Adam’s team that needed to be tested for three products at a time.

    Into the midst of all of this came the minor matter of a virus that caused major disruption to the UK at various times but particularly during the first lockdown. I suspect that QA was at best seriously disrupted initially if not suspended for a while. It’s a fair bet that DTG faced increased and probably continuing costs as a result. Naturally the priority was to increase income. How does DTG do that? Release more DLC of course! This DLC still needs to go through QA for three products and it’s pretty obvious that non income generating DLC from Adam’s team will be at the back of the queue,

    To make matters more interesting generation 9 consoles make an appearance although in limited numbers due to disruption caused by that pesky virus. Naturally DTG is supporting these new consoles so now QA has to cover seven products as well as those outstanding DLC from Adam’s team. Third parties are now beginning to dip their toes into the water with some initial DLC which now needs to be tested for five products at a time. Third party DLC won’t make as much money for DTG as their own DLC but there’ll still be a percentage. QA now need to handle seven DTG products plus third party products for five products and of course there’s a growing list of DLC from Andy’s team that need to be tested for five products waiting for a spare (hollow laugh) slot.

    I’m pretty certain that by now the strain on QA is now obvious to DTG but any extra permanent QA staff still need to be financially justified and then of course there’s the minor issue of finding said staff at the pay that DTG is prepared to offer.

    Epic then come along and suggest adding TSW2 to their store and DTG agree. QA now need to handle eight DTG products plus third party products for six products plus there’s all the other TSW2 DLC needs to be tested for Epic and right slap at the bottom of the queue is a long list of DLC from Andy’s team that’s been further increased by Matt’s decision (obviously with the best of intentions) to update all outstanding DLC with a targeted set of improvements that need to be tested for six products waiting for the pretty well non-existent QA slots.

    In the space of about three years QA have moved from coping with two DTG products to needing to handle eight DTG products plus third party products that need to be tested six times as well as about 17 DLC from Adam’s that also need to be tested six times. It’s hardly surprising that QA is now a major bottleneck.
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is no indication that the rate of DLC release has changed any from the start of TSW: 6 routes per year, plus a couple of locos or "gameplay packs." If anything, the frequency of loco DLCs has dropped off quite a bit from 2019, when there was a huge tranche of old British diesels released.

    However, I agree with the matter of overwork- both with regard to QA, and the fact that Adam's PC now have three jobs: updating old routes to include modern features AND repairing any and all bugs (since the Core Team have apparently washed their hands of it) AND, now, 'advising' Rivet and Skyhook on how to make their products non-rubbish.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  18. jj-6688

    jj-6688 Member

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    Been waiting to play the updated Oakville sub and San Francisco for a while now. Any ideas on that?
     
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  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Don’t forget making stuff for DLC expansion packs and all the Mastery rewards.
     
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  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I thought the same until someone pointed out something to me - despite the small size of Adam’s team, just look at the amount of stuff which is waiting to be released. I think the team will be able to handle it. It’s the testing which needs serious attention to it, which is delaying everything.
     
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  21. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    I probably should have missed out the "more". The point I meant to make was that DLC is where DTG makes its money and that non-imcome generating DLC would definitely be the last choice for QA time.
     
  22. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    My post was an attempt to explain the background to why QA is struggling for those who may not be aware how TSW platforms have mushroomed since TSW's launch around three years ago. In a perfect world and without the issues that a virus caused management might have recognised what was happening and taken steps to forestall this issue happening. We don't live in a perfect world, the virus turned up and we are where we are with a QA bottleneck which I suspect is unlikely to vanish anytime soon IMHO. I would be delighted to be proved wrong on that last point.
     
  23. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I think you are in danger of confusing real world to the Digital world. In the real world if you buy a product and say 100 people buy that product and say 5 people publish a fault with that product then it is easier to stop people buying said product and the company goes bust or remedies the situation. In the Digital world if 5 out of the 100 find a fault with that product companies like DTG will think 'it works for the other 95' so probably won't do anything about it.

    And if you buy a faulty product in the real world and don't complain about it you're either a fool or so rich it doesn't matter . Even if you buy the same product elsewhere isn't it a courtesy to highlight the fault in so helping other people who might have the same fault but didn't realise? And you should know by now with software if no-one complains then nothing gets fixed only ignored or in the pres updates just not released. If there are only one or two people complaining on a forum they will get heard but if lots complain eventually they have to address it.

    I think your view of 'fair' is flawed. You like real world analogies so here is one. Say you bought a product in the real world and it developed a fault and the manufacturers said it would take 1 month to fix then three weeks later they told you that it will now take another 6 months as someone who just bought the product had a more serious fault than you. That is OK is it? To me it is not, you should have priority because you have been waiting for longer. Used to be known as good service and good manners once upon a time....
     
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  24. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Still no ICE T and Class 700 on the Roadmap is pretty annoying
     
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  25. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    At the same time I feel so sorry for adam's team, now having to handle, three stuff, which is putting too much pressure on the team. They have to expand the team, or the community would not be able to get what they wanted. The company really needs to step up the game and really needs to make changes that are equal and fair to the team as a whole. Have a separate QA Team, for each own franchise, instead of one big team doing everything. I really hope they would understand how much it affect their company and will make changes fair.
     
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  26. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Now that the public can go back to work couldn't DTG invite people in to do testing?
     
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  27. Es4t

    Es4t Active Member

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    What people? If you mean Joe Public it’s unlikely that would ever happen. Besides which everyone would need to sign an NDA.
     
  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I know they have pots of money but EA do just that, in fact they fly some members of the public in. Obviously DTG couldn't afford this but given that their excuse is a bottleneck in QA/testing I'm sure their would be plenty of volunteers prepared to give up a day or so to help DTG out and by doing it on site there is no danger of their software going walkies.

    I do not see signing a NDA a problem if one is needed no? I've had to sign a couple in the past other people more.
     
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  29. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Wake me up when the next stuff with TSG involvement is going to release ;-)
     
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  30. Es4t

    Es4t Active Member

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    The ‘bottleneck’ as you describe is merely the fact they DTG want to and keep pushing out DLC too quickly! All that needs to happen is that they release new routes less frequently for a while and give Adam’s PC team time to catch up. This would benefit not only DTG but also ultimately end users.
    As I see it now DTG are trying to spin too many plates at once and not very successfully at that! If I remember correctly Adam said that his team were involved in QA now…there’s an example of that plate spinning!
    I too am a paying customer and frustrated at broken elements of the game but we should all remember this is just a game and not a matter of life and death!
     
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  31. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the DLC releases but I can't see the bean counters at DTG changing their ways.

    Adam's team have completed the 17 pres routes that need updating and are awaiting release for the past two months so the bottleneck is in testing and even though Adam's team are involved they are involved with third parties as well now, like you say 'plate spinning'

    I wouldn't say it is a matter of life or death either but I would say it is frustrating. I just want the GWE, haven't played TSW2 in months. There are a few that want just the RD updates for the preservation Loco's (again has been done, awaiting release) no idea why they couldn't have been released by now.
     
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  32. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    As TSW is essentially a business, this will never happen. They won’t delay and/or stop DLC purely for the benefit of preservation updates. The issue lies in how DTG manages their QA process.

    As an end user, I am not particularly interested in the way they handle their internal management, nor are their issues/limitations/problems our problem. All I care about, and probably many other players are, is a stable and well functioning game, with all routes having the same amount of features and staying up to date.

    DTG, the ball is firmly in your court…
     
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  33. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    DTG are going to have to bite the bullet and let there be one mega download once in a while.
    Folk on metered internet access as I was, will be sensible enough to have automatic downloads switched off to manage their update schedule themselves.
    The mega update isn’t an unprecedented thing, when gen 9 consoles came out, all the folk upgrading to those versions had to do just that.
     
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  34. Es4t

    Es4t Active Member

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    Pedant mode on; TSW is not a business it is a product from a business namely DTG. Their internal processes are a matter for their executive management team not us whether you are interested or not. Any business will look to mitigate any issues/limitations/problems - does anyone seriously think that a business wants to sell an inferior product?
    I totally agree that none of their problems are the customers problem as you mentioned but at some point a line has to be drawn. Their problem with QA appears to lay in the fact that there aren’t or weren’t enough people doing that role. Moving resource from one area to another will inevitably impact all parts of the production process.
    This is what I see happening….Pres Crew moved to QA…preservation route updates grinding to a halt or at best intermittent and people on this forum complaining that nothing is happening on that front!

    We’ll get there in the end!
     
  35. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    upload_2022-1-29_0-53-45.jpeg
    this train want 99% guarantee for Swiss route
     
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  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where some people get the idea that fixing bugs, making improvements to dlc and QA testing are non revenue activities. Those processes are part and parcel of the production process and all contribute to making the product better and more desirable, thereby increasing sales, especially among those new to the hobby. Everything that a company does when producing a product for sale is all part of the revenue producing stream. So those activities are just as important as writing code. It's not only new dlc that sell, older routes and locos are still for sale and improving and fixing them contribute to profits.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While that's true, it's awfully hard to turn that into a number that fits in a spreadsheet. Whereas anticipated revenue from a new DLC can be.
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not confused. I don't see a difference. If enough people online complain in the spaces where people go to look for reviews then it's "buyers beware", which is the same in the bricks and mortar world
     
  39. kosti.nuuja

    kosti.nuuja Well-Known Member

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    Is it 100% sure that this is the loco of the new TSW2 Swiss route? (Would be very nice.)
     
  40. jiroo92

    jiroo92 Member

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    Rivet said at Instagram that the model is from Train Simulator.
     
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  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if potential TSW2 players who fancy some of the older routes rather than the new ones would think 'I will wait for the updates' . Would DTG take that as lost revenue?
     
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  42. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking 'I will wait for a bigger sale discount' for some of the routes. Although I like the concept of West Cornwall and Cane Creek, reviews about numerous bugs and low quality make me very cautious buying these add-ons. Perhaps some bugfixing would tempt me to buy these add-ons at a higher price tag. ;)
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In concept, yes- but it's almost impossible to attach a number to that.
     
  44. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I can accept that but as a business surely you have to take that into account no? I'm no businessman but shouldn't potential lost sales be part of the calculations even if it is estimated? Or perhaps DTG think it is a loss releasing pres updates and would rather churn out new DLC?
     
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  45. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, I'm sure most companies incorporate all kinds of overhead and variable costs into their Cost of Goods Sold spreadsheets, and fix prices, budgets and revenue estimates accordingly.
     
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  46. rilijsellard

    rilijsellard Member

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    I agree with you dude it is disappointing and ridiculous they want instead of fixing stuff they want to go by a popularity contest so when they start losing money at won't be our problem. They aint listening to us they are doing whatever they feel like and leaving bugs in the game that are preventing most of us from playing the content we have already . I wont buy anymore stuff till DTG get off their lazy British rears and fix whats already wrong and has been for years
     
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  47. rilijsellard

    rilijsellard Member

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    To any dovetail employee that wishes to read this: Dovetail games need to get their heads together and in one spot and come to the senses that you guys need to launch the bug fixes before you start worrying about making new content and before you even think about launching another content release you guys need to crack down and get the bugs fixed and stop with this popularity stuff that's dividing your community in half. . Now let's see how smart DTG is or if your going to keep going down your current path of destruction and the path of loosing players due to community division .
     
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  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    How can you quantify ‘potential’ lost sales against any possible delayed improvement of old DLC? It’s an impossible number to know and even an estimation would be very difficult. The simple fact is that upgrades to DLC only actually affect people who have already purchased them and any improvement isn’t going to generate any revenue from those players. Not a single penny. DTG can afford to take their time improving any single DLC as it isn’t likely to massively affect income one way or another in the short term. Selling new DLC does affect income immediately. Not selling new DLC will have the single biggest detrimental effect on their income overall both in the short and long term, so it is much higher on the priority scale. That’s why we are waiting so long for other work to be released.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You should realize that the people who fix bugs and the people who make new content aren't the same people; shutting down the one won't make the other move any faster.

    You should also be aware that the current problem is not the bug fixes themselves - most have them have been done - but rather a bottleneck in testing which is delaying those fixes from being released.

    Also: if DTG stops selling DLC, they can't pay their bills. Starting with staff pay- and the first staff to be laid off would be the ones who fix bugs.
     
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  50. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    With the exception of the Preservation Crew, if I understood things correctly...
     
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