Rivet Games: Luzern-sursee Discussion

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by FD1003, Feb 8, 2022.

  1. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    :D

    I kind of agree with you. There are far too many Emu's in the game already and the differences are mainly external. They are rather boring to drive. However, if the route is well made and the scenery is interesting, I guess I'll overlook that aspect, as I will with the Harlem line, no doubt.
    This is what happened with BML; I don't like the two trains but the route is very well modeled.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but how in the hell are you managing to start the Ge 4/4 II without it jumping? Because even if you apply throttle first then release the brakes, it doesn't work. Even 1% brake holds the train in place, so no matter how careful you are, the brakes reach 0% and the loco jumps. It's not about "instant gratification", the Ge 4/4 physics is simply bad even after the update.

    Yeah, that's really what they should do. After the release of this route, they could start by making a train add-on for it to increase traffic and variety. Then they could do another Swiss route, either a RhB one or a standard gauge one like this. In both cases they could use rolling stock from these previous routes to make their work easier and better.
     
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  3. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Same for you. Video or stop trolling. Rivet used a BS excuse like this to try and pass of the abismal brakes as realistic, I can see they are recruiting gullible people now.
     
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  4. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    It's not possible. Period. Don't know why there are people on this forum telling things that are completely false.
     
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  5. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible there is a misunderstanding of the problem.

    This (video by fabristunt):

    Happened to me once or twice shortly after 4.26 released.

    This:

    Instead happens every time the loco is accelerating from stand still and I believe is due to how DC motors* are simulated in TSW, or the fact that the current immediately jumps to 24A.

    It's not much different from the transition from series to parallel in the '72 stock or in the 313.

    *
    So, apparently the GE 4/4 II is powered by "mixed current traction motors" a.k.a. ripple current traction motors a.k.a. wavy current traction motors. So far I managed to understand that those work with the current being fed from a transformer (like the old german AC locos such as the BR155 and 143), but the current is then passed through a tyrhistors which converts the current into (machine translated from german): "non sinusoidal voltage (DC/Ripple current) - I have no idea if that causes the motors to "struggle" at low speed like a normal brushed DC motor or not, but it seems like Rivet modeled it like a normal DC motor

    If it's not clear those are guesses not facts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
  6. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Don't believe it- that is your prerogative - just stating what I experience the way I drive - loco brake set - apply power - release brake - works for me
     
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  7. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    So, I have a question about safety systems on the Flirt. Will it also be equipped with ZUB?

    The Flirt driving on this line with ETCS is wrong:
    The Flirt is equipped with ETCS to be able to run for example on the Gotthard, where the line is equipped with ETCS L2.
    The line Luzern-Sursee is only equipped with ETCS L1LS, which requires Baseline 3 on the train ETCS, which the Flirt does not have.
    Hence it is impossible for the Flirt to run on ETCS on this line.

    Can you please look into this?
     
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  8. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Its not actually that hard but hey you do you and I wont expect an apology. Like I say if you arent capable of putting in the effort and want everything handed to you on a plate and name call people who can drive trains then dont be surprised when you have egg on your face.

    Same goes for you Dinosbacsi & Jinoss17
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  9. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Wikipedia states that the Luzern-(Sursee)-Olten line is equipped with ETCS L2, so hopefully that's not an issue
     
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  10. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    where is that stated? That is wrong ...
     
  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Rather than just state something is wrong, it would be really helpful if you could provide a verified source to back up your statement. And I agree wiki can invariably be wrong.
     
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  12. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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  13. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    What is written there is, that ETCS L2 was tested 2002-2004 on a part of this line (not included in the DLC). After the tests, the ETCS was removed.

    Now the line is only equipped with ETCS L1LS, which the Flirt can't use, as it does not have Baseline 3.
     
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  14. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    https://company.sbb.ch/en/the-compa...sbb-and-safety/train-safety-etcs/level-2.html

    The mentioned lines at the bottom are all the lines that are equipped with ETCS L2 atm. More should follow soon (Luzern-Sursee not yet part of those routes).
     
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  15. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    That source lists a number of routes as examples. That's does not necessarily mean Luzern-Sursee is not equipped. I don't know either way, but if it isn't equipped but modelled then it's going to sway my decision somewhat which is why I'm taking an interest.
     
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  16. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    Just watch a cabride video ;). If you can see normal signals, it is not ETCS L2.

    Edit: Finally I found an official map:
    Page 95:
    https://www.bav.admin.ch/dam/bav/de...gramme.pdf.download.pdf/Standbericht 2020.pdf
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  17. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your input! Sadly by reading that page using Google translate it seemed as it was one of the first lines installed with ETCS L2, but it wasn't clear the fact it got removed later.

    I definitely noticed the discrepancy between L2 ETCS and the presence of trackside signals but just convinced myself it was just me not being knowledgeable enough with ETCS.

    I will update my original post, thanks again.
     
  18. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I just saw the map and Luzern-Sursee is ETCS Level 1 Limited Supervision Route. In some cases ETCS Level 2 has a Triangular block signal sign this is seen on Gotthard Basistunnel and Schnnellfahrstrecke Olten Bern Lotschberg Base Tunnel and the Lausanne Domdossola Line ETCS Level 2 segment. End of those uses ETCS Level 1 LS that includes the Simplon Line Start point Vallorbe where ETCS Level 1 LS 15kv AC Meets French KVB 25kV AC
     
  19. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, it's jumping in this video!

    BTW, 1 minute for every departure after a stop or a red signal, what a work around, very confortable :D
     
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  20. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Just like Dinosbacsi pointed out above, even 1% holds the train still. Just look at the HUD, there is the red traction lock icon on the throttle setting. The whole procedure you are doing is useless, the 50t loco and the rest of the train jump forward excatly the same. If that looks normal to you, you might want to get checked.

    This is one of the few things that was working well initially, rush hour broke it and River half-assed a fix a few months later.

    Just check min 15:00 and 28:45. The train departs smoothly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying this behavour is prototypical? I still have my doubts. Try to do a smooth start with the loco only. Even 1% loco brake will hold the loco so it's impossible to release it any slower, so the loco always jump.

    Anyway, this is getting off topic, so let's not discuss it here further. I will try to replicate what you've done in the video to get smoother starts, but I'm still pretty sure the physics are wrong. No train jump starts like that.
     
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  22. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's time to move on. The video definitely shows the loco is still jumping but the guy driving somehow misses it ...
     
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  23. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    So on a line with a 6% incline you think its prototypical to release the brakes and then engage throttle?

    Ok but I'm going to disagree with you entirely on that.

    And as for the loco jerking forward in the video I think your preconceived beliefs are clouding your judgement and you're looking and seeing something which isn't there. If you compare side to side with the videos provided showing the train jerking forward it's clear it really isn't but hey I'm just a troll employed by rivet.
     
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  24. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Rivet are very good at modelling Locomotives , I never complained about that. However their route modelling is extremely poor in my opinion. I hope they make a better fist of this short route than they did with West Cornwall, the worst route in the game so far for me.

    It is a very short route with one locomotive, so I would expect a price of £19.99, but bet they charge £24.99. It won’t be a day one purchase and I will not be buying it until it has a sale price of less than £15. If their other routes had been better I would have bought it on its release.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  25. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    In an effort to bring this topic back on track I wanted to share some MSFS screenshots the route, the scenery seems incredibly beautiful and the line does not feel at all like a busy corridors (even if it is IRL), I hope that could help offset the lack of trains and long distance traffic.

    Hopefully Rivet will focus a bit on replicating the mountains of the far distance to replicate the feel of a valley rather than feeling like a plain. 487abf91-a92c-42f6-8d46-ae2d7f6f59c1.jpg 678757ec-1e1d-491a-8c9c-380ae296fe71.jpg a31d6fd3-e7aa-45c1-b7bd-8dd208f8e00c.jpg 2194548e-4f24-457a-9861-b24e3d6646dd.jpg
    Hopefully the short lenght will result in a more detailed and beautiful line. Also the MSFS AI does put too many trees, I expect the scenery to not feel like a forest IRL.

    Apologies for the informal nature of the first two shots.

    Let's see how the situation with ETCS evolves... lux#4689 do you think it's possible they are setting the route when ETCS L2 was in operation? How would that impact operations with the Flirt?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  26. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Where is it jumping in the video? Obviously we have different definitions of “jumping”. When the route originally came out, it would jump forward several feet when starting under most conditions. That is why I started applying power before releasing the loco brake. With the fixes provided, as many others have stated, the lurching has been much improved and I do not experience it with my driving.
     
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  27. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that it's jumping less than before, it's evident and nobody can deny it. But nobody can also deny the fact that it's still jumping.
    For reference, check the video fabristunt posted above.
     
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  28. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Not going to argue with you, all I can state is I am not experiencing the “jumping” you describe and I am enjoying the route.

    best
     
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  29. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    And I don't believe it given the guy claiming your same statement posted a video and the loco jumped :D

    However let's move on and hope that Rivet learned more about TSW physics.
     
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  30. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    And as I stated - I do not see the jump in @redrev1917’s video he posted I am referencing. If you did, so be it. If you want to laugh at me for not agreeing with you, again so be it. But being at an impasse over how to interpret the video, not worth continuing this conversation. Have a great day.
     
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  31. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You claim the loco is still jumping when it clearly isn't because you are incapable of accepting you are ever wrong.

    It's like Jinoss17 claim it takes a minute to start from a station or red light when the video is only 26seconds long...

    And it's obvious to anyone I was deliberately slowing the process down to aid people.
     
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  32. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Did you watch the video posted by fabristunt? I already have the answer: no you didn't.
     
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  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, depends on whether one defines "thyristor" as including "silicone-controlled rectifier" or not. Modern multilayer thyristors as are used in the speed control of German locos from the BR 120 on have those, but they weren't a thing when the Ge4/4 was designed. Had they been, then it would drive like a TRAXX, rather than relying on tap-changing.

    "Ripple current" is a way of describing unfiltered rectified AC; in other words the negative half-cycles have been "flipped over" but haven't been smoothed out (which in old-school electronics required big honking filter capacitors)
     
  34. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    No Flirt back then. That was about 20 years ago.
     
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  35. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    Nice idea to take screenshots by flying over in MSFS. I also can make out a F-14 Tomcat. Meanwhile there is a free F-18 Super Hornet available, so anyone can fly a fighter jet at supersonic speed now. ;)

    But back to the topic: the scenery at the lake will certainly be implemented well, because the team from Rivet has already created such a convincing coastline in WCL. This time it is not a swiss high mountain route but rather a hilly plain, but at least with mountains on the horizon. In any case, we remain curious, not only because of the fancy train!
     
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  36. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    From what I understand all trains that can operate on L2 can also run on L1LS as it is the same as L1 but only on certain signals rather than every signal, it will work out brake curves at the signal rather than adjusting the brake curves on the move as it does with L2. So yes it does have ETCS but will only provide limited information in the cab and only when passing certain signals which is prototypical, if they implement Level 2 then that would be wrong but not L1LS.


    From Wikipedia
    Pictures of how Level 1 works compared to Level 2, Limited Supervision is only on some signals not all
    2560px-ETCS_L1_en.svg.png
    2560px-ETCS_L2_en.svg.png
     
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  37. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    Baseline 3 is separate from the Levels. You have the different levels and different baselines. The train must be of equal or higher level and of equal or higher baseline than the line it is running on.

    In this case, the level of the ETCS on the Flirt is higher than the one on the line, but the baseline is not high enough, so it does not work.
     
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  38. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Well the Flirt is not much younger either, but I just checked and it started production in 2004 so it didn't miss that time window by much
     
  39. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    we can see in the screenshots:
    523 038 - in service since 26/08/2008
    523 051 - in service since 08/05/2013
    523 055 - in service since 12/09/2013
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  40. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I paid £22 for West Cornwall... A bet that didn't pay off.

    This new route will almost certainly be crap. It's a habit for Rivet. DTG isn't doing well at the minute either. Skyhook are a lost cause. At this point, I'm just going to ask Matt Peddlesden if I can make routes myself. I bet you it'll be many times better than what people pay £25 for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Always good to bet small :)
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Darn it, now I'm going to have to load up MSFS for a flight around Switzerland (after the usual 10Gb update of course).
     
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  43. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Email 3rd party. Assuming it hasn't changed, it's partners@dovetailgames.com. Having said that, Matt's apparently going to make it much simpler to get new 3rd parties on board so maybe wait till then. Given you've written off the 2 big 3rd parties, I'd recommend being prepared to do everything yourself.

    And I mean everything.
     
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  44. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    No it would be much, much worse and never completed. I bet you any amount of money that it wont be better or anywhere near the quality of DRA or DCZ, id even say Arosaline or WCL. Sorry for the short reality check, but its a bit stupid and pointless to say something like this.

    I can understand the negativity about skyhook and in parts about rivet, but DTGs recent releases, especially the German routes, are really good, of course not flawless, but what software is?
    Dresden Chemnitz has very good rolling stock, scenery and AI, one of the best in the game.
     
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  45. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    About the track infrastructure i dont know anything how it was in lucerne between 2010-2018 related to etcs.

    But of the 2000 sold flirts by now, there are major differences in the configurations.
    The "olten flirt" had different batches, one of the same configuration is even operated by trans neuchatel by now. (Painted in green). ETCS "out of the factory" delivered began with the E2W Project around 2014 and was related to the Reference Flirt from Vaudoise, which are also ETCS equipped after refit.

    This is the Configuration equipped in 3 of the batches:
    1.jpg

    Well im sure Rivet got the details to produce this Flirt and a nice new system in tsw2 with their licencing. Unfortunately its not possible to share / post any more details for legal reasons.
     
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  46. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I need to do more stuff in TS to have enough of a background to work on TSW2, but luckily I have a team ready. I am very good at close scenery in routes (which is something quite lacking in TSW) and I am competent at scenarios (although we have an outside scenario guy who may or may not be better than me). There's someone else who can do signalling and large-scale route building, and there's another who does modelling - I'm yet to see how good he is though.
    This assumes my singular post has annoyed every developer of TSW content so much they'd refuse to come near me. My team have annoyed people in TS (we managed to get MajorWales to hate us despite us having stuff that could help him significantly, and the reason for us disliking us being a load of BS) but what I am saying isn't personal. I am sure DTG, Rivet and Skyhook are full of nice people who try their best - it's just that, while they show promise and can do things very well, it just doesn't turn out very well.

    I may be hyping myself up a little bit too much, but I do have some things going for myself and my team - the most important being that I have no shareholders to breathe down my neck.

    Of course, I may reconsider working on TSW entirely in the unlikely event Luzern is a good route and DTG don't bugger SoS up.
     
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  47. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    In the video posted by redrev there is certainly a fairly immediate start, but not the same jerking forward as in the other videos.
    However if you just watch the speedo you will see it does still blip (shoot up and then go down again) which is a bit wierd.
     
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  48. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realist you have a full team. If you wanna get into TSW dev I'd say go for it.

    I meant more that I thought you'd be less likely to go to them given what you said.
     
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  49. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Careful you'll be labelled a paid rivet troll with posts like that.

    No one denied it accelerates to fast, but no way doesn't jerk forward like some haters claim.
     
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  50. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I have little respect for people who just cry troll when ever some one disagrees with them let alone some one who when proven wrong isn't adult enough to admit their error and apologise.

    I'm out of here.

    DTG Natster please delete my account, I've no wish to remain in a forum where the maturity level resembles a pre school
     
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