Rivet Games: Luzern-sursee Discussion

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by FD1003, Feb 8, 2022.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that you will quickly learn what Rivet and Skyhook have: that developing for TSW is vastly more complex and difficult than TS. Both studios have demonstrated a high level of TS competence (which you assert for yourself), yet TSW has in both cases proven to be a different league
     
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  2. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Don't let the door hit you on the way out, redrev!
     
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  3. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies for what? Btw this is not an airport, you don't have to announce your departure.
     
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  4. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Back to topic pls.
     
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  5. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    By no means do I think they're incapable. All three have positives, mostly in the modelling department, which is where I struggle. All three have proved themselves in these areas - Skyhook with scenery on Cane Creek and modelling many trains, Rivet also for modelling trains and assets, and DTG made some really good DLCs in the TSW2020 days. Any help from them would be appreciated.
    Indeed. But that argument doesn't hold up when looking at the good stuff for TSW, like the recent Vossloh G6 and the early TSW routes (scenery). I expect that if Rivet take their time on this route and DTG don't rush steam both can be good DLCs. Sometime I feel these companies are settkng themselves up to fail, and that's the upsetting bit. I really do hope this new Rivet route is good and proves us all wrong, but until we see it I am going to be very careful with getting excited.
     
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  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    From what I've heard the environment editor (OK, the track laying bit) is relatively similar to TS1.
    TSG has had lots of experience with the TSW editing tools before making their own locos - same for Skyhook (at least on the modelling front - they did most of the trains in the early days). I think the main bit where both have consistently come a cropper on is setup and simugraph; possibly because the tools are (maybe) nothing like anything in TS1.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While I do not by any means mean to demean Maik or diminish the excellence of his locos, I would observe that to date that is what TSG have (has) done: locos. Routes and scenery represent another learning curve. I am not saying TSG couldn't make an excellent route, but I am saying that for any studio to do everything involved in TSW well requires a lot of disparate skills. Rivet and Skyhook have displayed some of them, but rather obviously, not all.
     
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  8. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't think that anyone involved in the development of routes and locos for TSW, whether at DTG or at 2nd or 3rd party studios, lacks the skills to produce quality products. In my opinion, most if not all the problems over the past couple of years come down to a lack of rigor in beta and QA testing. Issues with dlc are not being caught before release or, if they are, for one reason or another, are not being fixed prior to launch. Is every route and loco being rigorously tested on every platform and every kind of hardware?
    Not every bug can be spotted and fixed, but some major ones are escaping into release versions. And then they're not being addressed in a timely manner.
    Other core issues, like the save dysfunction, sound deficits, lighting and preserved route updates are not being triaged like they should be.

    Just my personal take.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2022
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  9. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    My impression Crosstie is that the beta testers aren’t blind or stupid and see many bugs and faults, but the powers that be insist on a release anyway to have an immediate cash return. This could be considered shortsighted but it has been demonstrated again and again. This is the way.
     
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  10. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Another route I won't be purchasing, certainly not at full price, I'm going to get bored with it very quickly at only twenty-odd kilometers!
    A to B B to A driving is not fun for very long without different layers, they should have stuck with another narrow gauge route imo.
     
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  11. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    For right now, we don't know anything about the layers and timetables? And Rivets record actually shows that their timetables do include often more than just A -> B -> A. For example Arosa has the runs where you change the direction of the loco which are fun and chellenging. So no way to judge right now the gameplay.
     
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  12. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Ok here a thing might be worth a discussion:

    With this modern swiss route and the Flirt, PIS should be working on stations and train in my opinion, since DTG clearly goes the path of this feature being standard. And to be honest, even if not every pis is 100% accurate, i like having them in tsw2.

    So what you think? Will Rivet add this feature, or would it affect your decision of a buy / no buy if it would be not integrated?

    Just interessted in opinions about this.
     
  13. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Well I disengaged from this thread quicker than my mouth does dirty kebab meat when I saw it was another one of the these threads....

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    It would be nice to see functional PIS on the platforms. This would be a new asset I assume, I don't think it will look like any of the PIS that are already in TSW. But the tech is there and it should hopefully not be too much to create the visuals for it, so I really hope for it :) Is it going to make the difference for buying or not, probably not, but it certainly adds to the feel of the route, and that will be a deciding factor in the end. I look forward to getting more information and seeing more from the route :)
     
  15. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite saddened by how this thread evolved and I feel somewhat responsible as well... I was hoping to keep this thread updated as more info became available but I guess it will just be ignored by most now... beyond maybe the original post and few posts below.

    I'm particularly sad about how buried the discussion about ETCS is and I suggest lux#4689 to open his own thread if the situation is not clarified in future posts.

    PIS is one of these nice to have but not at all necessary things to how I play the game. So I'm not bothered to be honest. Personally my immersion depends more on the general scenery, and mostly train physics/sounds/cab rather than little station details such as PIS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  16. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's a bit weird that the PIS screens on the Flirt don't seem to shown anything. Issue is, if they do not work at release, I very highly doubt they will work later on, as DTG will not go back to fix Rivet content, and River itself likely won't either.

    But I do agree with FD1003, to me PIS is not that much of a concern either. The busyness of the timetable, train physics and sounds are much more important concerns, and I've yet to see a Rivet rolling stock with good sounds.
     
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  17. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Well i hope rivet works with dtg to make them functional. There is plenty of time and it would be an improvment to rivets content.

    At least it would push up their image of doing only the bare minimum on their content.
     
  18. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    So for those of you who would like to know whether there are mountains in this route:
    Here is a picture I took today from the station of Nottwil on this route- I must say this route is very busy and after walking along it for about two hours, I am really looking forward to it!
    View attachment upload_2022-2-12_15-38-54.jpeg
     
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  19. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but it seems there are no headlights, or lights in general, on on the screenshots, so maybe (hopefully) the PIS is missing because of the Work in progress.

    But i think working PIS on the in and outside adds a lot of immersion, especially if its very prominent like at the front or big screens inside the train.
    E.g. the working, scrolling and dynamic PIS on BML is a great feature which makes free roam and timetable mode more interesting.
    So i really hope it is in the release version
     
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  20. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Would you please improve the scenery around St. Ives and Penzance, I would gladly pay you £25 for a more realistic design. But with all respect to you, any keen developer would have made a better fist of a realistic route design than Rivet’s effort. What surprises me is Rivet’s replication of locomotives are extremely good, but their efforts to produce a realistically design route is very poor. I just hope that Rivet will issue an expansion pack for WCL where they improve their design to more realistic replication.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  21. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I agree, based on past performance I don't expect to be surprised, but you never know some pixies may sprinkle special pay attention to details dust over the devs at RG?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  22. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps? But the length is the off-putter for me in particular, especially for a busy commuter and express route. I would have been happier with Interlaken Lauterbrunnen with the 800mm narrow gauge thrown in. :love:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  23. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    All of this discussion on the merits or demerits of all the developers goes for nothing until DTG fixes the update problem It is irrelevant that DTG has a fix for a bug or inaccuracy if it is never released. What differentiates the good from the mediocre is not whether errors are made - errors are inevitable - it is the recovery. We will have to wait and see if Matt's well-meaning (and I am sure sincere) promises come to fruition. Sorry, but I am not holding my breath.
     
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  24. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    One of my ideas to improve my skills before committing to building a route is to upgrade existing ones. WCL, LGV, Arosa and SEHS are on the top of my list. I think a lot of the criticism Rivet Games is justified; they are capable developers but shoot themselves in the foot in one way or another every single time in TSW...
    BR204 - Knowingly release it with inaccurate and broken physics, then refuse to fix it.
    IoW - Not a bad route (one of my favourites actually) but has bad water textures and the train is a bit buggy, albeit beautiful.
    Arosa - Calamity after calamity... Terrible scenery, buggy physics, stupid timetable... £24.99
    WCL - Bad scenery, buggy and inaccurate trains, broken scenarios.
    Anniversary Pack - I haven't seen any horror stories, but I guess they couldn't mess up a reskin pack with some new services and scenarios that bad.

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Rivet continually release content that shouldn't have been released, then expect us to like what is released. We, as a community, get excited for the DLC, then buy it, then go on a rampage in the forums after we realise how awful it is. Repeat. One of these needs to change - either Rivet get their act together or we lower our expectations so Rivet's DLC is acceptable. I paid £22 on WCL. I was fooled by the scenery and the modelling. which is generally alright except for some parts - I remember saying to my friend that it looked decent when it was first shown off. It wasn't decent in any way and I ended up just buying a £22 test route for me to put my 90s reskins on. I do not want to be fooled again. Until Luzern proves itself to be worth my time, my £24.99 will be spent elsewhere - maybe on of Rivet's TS routes...
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
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  25. Warspite

    Warspite Well-Known Member

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    I was really looking forward to this route; at last, a standard gauge Swiss route in TSW2. However, Rivet has done exactly what they did with West Cornwall. That is, develop a route in an interesting, really scenic area, and then don't include the main line trains which are such an essential part of the railway operations. In the case of West Cornwall, it was the IC125 HSTs and here it is the main line passenger and freight services. I just hope somebody will see sense and find a way to include some main line services on the new route. Otherwise, they should just title the route "Luzern-Sursee Local".
     
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  26. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I rather prefere additional rolling stock in a separate dlc. And it make sense, so rivet can focus on the route and the features of the flirt. Not sure how it would end up with 5 new trains and a new route qualitywise. Its not even about rivet, same i think with dtg.

    Spirit of steam has 2 new Steam engines, probably because its a premiere and new core feature, but i got used to have 0-1 new train per new route. To raise the quality bar, i would even suggest to keep new trains entirely separate. However since there is not a single loco dlc from dtg right now i dont say this too loud. ;)
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    TSW doesn’t model cog railways
     
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  28. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    Matt said in a live stream rack & pinion is possible in the game, you just fake it by putting the track adhesion to 100% then make add the rack to the track :)
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's true, but it would violate the ethos of Simugraph. It's like TS physics programming.
     
  30. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I got something wrong, but the strong point of simugraph is simulating the traction equipment and electronics, togheter with other physics calculation, this has not much to do with adhesion, apart from the locos that have anti-ship system in place.

    TSW2020 used simugraph even if it didn't model adhesion at all, because simugraph "simulates the locomotive" not the wheel/rail contact and adhesion.

    EDIT/Addendum: for example in TS you could just put a number in a script for "acceleration" (I think this is an oversimplification anyway) or you could directly input values to match the acceleration and beaking curves of the real trains.

    With simugraph instead you define the input, so motor power for example and then simugraph would calculate the resulting acceleration curve.

    Adhesion doesn't make a difference
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The idea behind Simugraph is to model mathematically all the components and processes of the actual locomotive. Rail/wheel adhesion is just one of these. So where in TS1 one would simply write a function
    Code:
    Throttle f(weight, grade) = acceleration rate,
    in Simugraph it calculates the increase in prime mover output, and from there generator output, and right through the whole propulsion plant until the the wheels turn. To maintain that approach with a cog railway would have to model a driven pinion impinging on a fixed rack, not "pretend infinitely grippy wheels."
     
  32. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Why would you need that though? The more in-depth engine performance and brake calculations make sense, as they result in more realistic simulation compared to a simple function, but a cog railway can be perfectly simulated with "100% traction", no need to actually simulate the cogs touching and doing their things.

    Just like the train staying on the track is not simulated physically either. In TSW the train doesn't remain on the track because the rails physically hold the wheel flanges in place, like they do in real life. The game simply goes "there are the tracks, so the train goes in the middle". So not everything is accurately physics based, just because the game uses SimuGraph. So I think cog railway could be perfectly simulated simply by using 100% traction, as technically that's what cog railways simply result in anyway.
     
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  33. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    solicitr
    Probabily I'm just stupid but I still don't see how approximating a cog railway as a normal railway with 100% adhesion would change things.

    This remains unchanged wether adhesion is 1% or 100%, it's just not part of the equation.

    And if adhesion is so fundamental for simugraph, how does TSW2020 work?

    It would like saying that if you set the adhesion level between the car and the road to 100% a game like BeamNG that simulates correctly engine, gearbox, brakes, etc... would lose the edge over a game which just uses values on its physics engine like GTA V.

    Also approximating a cog railway as a normal railway with 100% adhesion doesn't seem awfully unrealistic, if the relative increase of drag is simulated as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
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  34. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I too am optimistic about this one, hopefully the 26km = more time on the underpinnings.

    As for the Flirts, they aren’t the most exciting train, however they are evermore common (they’ll be quite a few of these even in the UK by 2025), in my opinion they are staple of the Modern European railway, so it is indeed nice to see them in TSW, and whilst they do have a fair few models, the Flirt could make for a very universal layering option.
     
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  35. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    If one might get interested: I edited a few of the photos I took next to the station of Nottwil yesterday, so I thought I could give y‘all an outlook of how this route looks in real life:
    View attachment upload_2022-2-13_22-30-37.jpeg
     
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  36. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Saw that picture and are there Aem 940s Eem 923s running on the route. If so these are assigned to Bw Olten running local freight on Olten Sursee Luzern route. Long-Distance Freight like Basel Muttenz Olten Sursee Luzern Erstfeld Ariolo Chiasso via Old Gothard Tunnel Monte Ceneri Summit Tunnel. Heavy freight route is Basel Muttenz Olten Sursee Luzern Erstfeld Belinzona Chiasso via Gotthard & Ceneri Base Tunnel are run by Re484 Re474 Quadvolatge locomotives. Long Distance Trains Rabe 500 Basel to Chiasso Rabe 503 ETR610 Basel Olten Luzern Belinzona Chiasso MIlano Cle others are Frankfurt Am Main Hbf via Sursee Basel
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Wow that is nice.

    I wouldn't be suprised though if rivet made the distant scenery poor
     
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  38. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow, the scenery is so gorgeous and amazing sight to see, hopefully, they really will get the scenery then I might change my mind about getting this route. It depends on how much assets and hard work they put in and the outcome of the route itself.
     
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  39. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t see any freight trains, but at Sursee there were a bunch of wagons. I was told that there are a few freight runs in the evening tho
     
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  40. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Fingers crossed rivet places a couple of static freight wagons, maybe a layer from BRD?

    Seeing abosolitely nothing apart from Flirts would be a bit jarring TBH.
     
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  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if this will be another route like WCL, which will need last minute surgery from DTG to add in additional layers and stock to make it passably interesting?
     
  42. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I think I would forego the realism of simugraphs role in this route's (Interlaken Lauterbrunnen) particular case.
    And would you refuse to purchase said route if it were ever produced because of your expectations?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  43. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the scenery it has a lot of walls, I hope Rivet doesn't use one spline wall texture over and over like ArosaLine and West Cornwall. It looks really bad for such a long wall at Penzance station, where in real life there is a lot of plants growing on it.

    DTG used a really nice method for long walls in London Underground (Depot) and should be used more often. (the wall texture, not the cables.)

    LondonUnderground.jpg

    Compared to Penzance wall.
     

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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    ....and inaccurate!
     
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  45. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The route actually seems really lovely, even the short section we're getting. I'm really hoping they manage to reproduce the scenery well. It's just such a shame they used the Flirt, as I would've much more preferred the older EMU we see alonside the route.

    But if the route ends up being good, then it's a definite buy from me as it look lively. I'm just hoping for a good scenery and a well-done train. Then hopefully they will make another add-on soon to add some variety to the route, either in the form of freight or any of the other passenger stock.

    I'm really hoping this route ends up being good, as the game really needs some good foreign routes.
     
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  46. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Pssst… Simugraph is just a fancier form of fakery.
    Simugraph will do whatever the devs tell it to do. If they want a Simugraph widget to do widgety things to fake a cog in a rack by having the outputted power go to the wheels instead of the cog (in the correct proportion) and have the wheels at a permanent 100% adhesion then that can be done. Much easier than developing a new type of track behaviour and the train can behave just like it would if the power did go to the correct place. The rack and pinion can just be animated artwork then.
     
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  47. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Rivet just posted an image of the flirt with headlights on and working PIS, so thats confirmed working ;)
     

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  48. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That's great news. Hopefully we'll get some screenshots showing more of the scenery as well. Currently all the ones only show the train and barely anything else, which makes it very hard to judge the quality of the route.
     
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  49. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I'm fairly confident we will see another article either this or next week. Fingers crossed it looks good both the near and far scenery. Although TBH I am not optimist for the far range mountains given how Cane Creek feels like going into a void until the next terrain tile is loaded :(
     
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  50. MrSouthernDriver

    MrSouthernDriver Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    found another picture of the flirt, this time with PIS,

    if rivet get this route wrong, i will honestly have no hope for them, this is my final straw with rivet
     
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