The route is pretty realistic, well done DTG. I have seen some yellow buses but haven’t seen any yellow cabs, which litter the streets of New York and it’s suburbs. Surely these cannot be missing, so had anyone seen any?
Well Yellow cabs do litter the streets of Manhattan. However there are rare occurrences of seeing yellow cabs in The Bronx. This is because there isn't that much demand for yellow cabs up here. Reason being is because yellow cabs charge you for every minute of the ride instead of a pre determined or flat fare in a regular taxi so it would be more expensive to use a yellow taxi instead of a regular limousine taxi in the outer boroughs of New York City The City did make NYC Borough Taxi which are like a yellow taxi but green and don't run below 110th Street in Manhattan. Green taxis charge you for every minute your in the cab so demand for the green taxi isn't high hence why it is hard to find one in The Bronx.
Speaking with our contact at Metro North, he describes basic accel specs as min 0.5mph/s with max 2mph/s and almost instant power with zero loading time. He says it feels a little sharp on the bottom end in the sim perhaps but nothing particularly notable. In reality If you whack the max controller into full it is indeed going to behave like a go-kart but that's not how the engineers run them. 800amps of power per car with all bogies powered, max 10 car sets giving 8kA of power.
Thanks for your feedback 2 MPHPS = 0,9 m/s² starting from 0 mph, which is way below the 1,25 m/s² I measured from 0 to 30 mph. It should be understood that even with max throttle you can't exceed this 0,9 m/s² value on dry rails. You did a great job at developing the LIRR M7, it should have been easy to reproduce it on the M7A with just a little more punch as they are not capped and can use their full power to accelerate at the rate of 0,9m/s². I really anticipated this route and I'm really disappointed Better luck next time...
I don't know about MTA drivers, but I do remember reading something by a British commuter EMU driver who said that slamming the controller straight into 4 from a standing start is very much frowned upon; there are in fact minimum recommended speeds for each notch.
That is true. You generally do not have to use full throttle from start. But to measure performance you do. It's the same for cars, you floor it and when you reach 100 km/h you have the time needed for the 0-100km/h (0 to 60 MPH in the USA?) . It's the same for measuring max train acceleration and that is what I did in the video to demonstrate the exaggerated starting acceleration that can't be reached with the power-per-ton ratio and gearing of the M7/M7A. That's just for the sake of realism, of 30€ DLCs This video was not a driving tutorial
So someone on the inside of Metro says " it feels a little sharp on the bottom end in the sim perhaps but nothing particularly notable" and you are still disagreeing and saying its wrong? Just exactly how much first hand experience do you have of driving these trains in real life out of interest?
Yeah you're right I'm so stupid, I know nothing about trains. It's not like I'm a train engineer (not driver, engineer). Oh LOVE, I'm going to sell bread, that will be better, you're so right. Nice one you've got there.
I asked you a simple straightforward civil question I never once said you wasn't an engineer IRL but apologies if it caused offense. Even so a simple yes I've driven M7a's for X number of years you opted for a sarcastic response. That says more about you then anything else.
I have noticed that the AI freight train that goes underneath the bridge at Harlem river doesn’t have clearance as far as height is concerned. It drives into the upper Harlem track and doesn’t look realistic. Another point is does the line have Realistic timetable for AI trains for the Hudson branch. Doesn’t look like. I have also noticed trains sometimes pilling up the line since it doesn’t move the rest just pull out behind them. Other than that looks great
As far as sound we definitely need more track noise. Is far too quiet. Especially when you go over certain spots you should hear the track noises
You perfectly know your question was not awaiting any answer. You perfectly know that I never drove the M7 train as I work for the french train industry. But trains are no witchcraft. They are predictable. The specification of the uncapped M7 and M7A is 0,9 m/s² IRL. In the game, it goes up to at least 1,25 m/s². That's a fact. That needs to be adressed if one cares for realism. Along with other members, I provided informations about the M7 to justify it. You just chose to ignore them and you failed to provide any proof that the M7A is different performance-wise. Just stop doing your show. The TSW 2 LIRR M7 is accurate. The TSW 2 Metro North M7A is fantasy. It's not the first time that a rolling stock in TSW behaves in a bad way. If it does not bother you, good for you. But stop mocking people that care for realism and raise concerns, or don't be surprised if you get answered in a sarcastic manner by the very people you chose to annoy.
Speaking to Harlem, I've noticed that some services do not have a required arrival time to this station, and/or do not have a required stopping point. So , you can stop whenever or wherever, for no penalty. It seems that some services, perhaps just Croton services, are set up more like "cargo" trains than passenger trains. It doesn't matter when you stop or how close you get. Also, I have noticed that upon arrival to GCT, the individual cars "unload" to separate values, similar to cargo loading. Strange.
I have zero knowledge of you or your work history and it was a genuine question actually. But hey you do you, seems like you know more about how a M7a drives than someone working inside Metro North
Ok no problem ! No I'm not pretending to know more. I'm just reading the specs sheet, which is a reliable source of information and depicts what the train operating company asked the manufacturer to build. The manufacturer won't overbuild a train because it would be more expensive and it may lose the tender process against other manufacturers. So if the train is built to accelerate at the rate of 2 mphps (0,9 m/s²) from 0 to 30 MPH for example, it won't accelerate faster. This rate is specified at full throttle. That's all you need to know. The video I posted shows that the M7A has been reproduced inaccurately because full throttle gives, at starting, 1,25 m/s² instead of 0,9. And yeah, that makes a difference. That's the issue that needs to be adressed if you care about realism. Anyways ... the case is closed for me, I have nothing else to add and I'm not willing to argue anymore. If you think I'm wrong, I can't do anything else.
If you haven’t bought this route, why not? DTG have set a new standard with this wonderful route. If you haven’t yet, go out and buy this, you will not be sorry. Thank you DTG it is magnificent.
It's funny how you ask for proof, (technical specifications) you get it and yet you simply choose to ignore it. Says alot to be honest. Fact is that they got the acceleration of this train wrong. If you don't think that's the case that's fine. I thought you left the forum by the way.
Really glad you're enjoying it. If you take the time to read through the threads, you would understand why some of us are underwhelmed by this dlc. After the most recent stream, I'm a little more favorably disposed, but will wait for a sale.
There are a number of issues though. The M7A propulsion cuts out when accelerating from zero which is the same issue in lirr. AI trains don't have passenger lights on. The M7A accelerates way too fast when applying full power. Yes drivers can drive at full power. My uncle works for the railroad and drives at full power. AI trains don't have working pis. It's nice your enjoying it but you should also understand why some haven't bought it.
Are you sure? Because I think I saw AI trains with passenger lights on. But I will keep checking when I drive.
Just curious at this stage... How is the night lighting? Is the city awash with neon and ambient light or is it pitch black like Saxon England?
They did a night run on the launch stream and it looks like this Starts about 33 minutes in, leave the tunnel at 42 minutes in
Thanks Pacer. Hard to tell, but it really doesn't look modern city bright to me. The problem I have at the moment, is if I buy and it isn't up to scratch I am still on a warning basis from Steam over refunds (thanks to Rivet and DTG). So anything I buy at present has to be for keeps.
On the topic of the GCT balloon loops, what purpose do they serve nowadays seeing as though it is only double ended EMUs using the station ? I know historically the Amtrak empire services used to use them to turn around after coming down via the Hudson Line...but since 1991 they have terminated at Penn station via the Empire Connection. What reason would the M3a/M7a's have to use the balloon loop (as they do in the game) ? Is the balloon loop only there IRL in case there is trackwork on the Empire Connection and the Amtrak services terminate at GCT and need to turn around ?
I believe there are storage tracks down there for trains. The loop allows the trains to go round the back of the platforms into the sidings on the other side of the station. I don’t think they’re used to turn trains around anymore.
OK makes sense...I didn't realise there were sidings down there as they are not modelled in TSW2. The first time I was sent around the loop in one of the scenarios I was like "why the heck am I going around here when I can just change ends?" I guess they just wanted to show us the loop exists with a fictionalised run around there
Yea, I'll add on to this old thread. Brought this topic up in another, and wanted to share a couple things. While I also did a comparative drag test, one only has to look at the indicated Tractive Force and Speed to see what's going on: An electric motor has a power profile with the same shape as measured here. A constant torque from 0 rpm to a point where internal EMF starts to oppose input current. You have increasing HP from 0 to that point which is the max HP and from there remains constant while torque decreases. The final limit is the physical design limit for RPM and a point of minimal output. If both these M7s were using the same electric motors but with the M7A a higher gearing, you would get more early acceleration but decrease your RPM limit by that same amount and hence top speed. Increasing gearing ratio does not give you free HP! It just tunes your vehicle to utilize the whole motor rpm range for the desired vehicle speed range. Both trains by all accounts use the same HP motors and the fact that both trains max out at 105mph, indicates that it is in fact not simply gearing. It may be possible that LIRR de-rated it's motors torque output for longevity. Or it's simply modeled wrong. Maybe when I get a chance to ride on Metro North next time, I'll take some g force measurements. (Probably not) BTW, industrial machinery such as trains are designed to be operated at full power. As an example note that a Ford Power Stroke diesel is the same engine used in both the Super Duty F-series pickup and the Commercial line of chassis cabs. It actually outputs less HP in the commercial tune, because it's expected to work at full capacity more often, as opposed to the guy who will rarely tow anything so it's duty cycle is shorter and output can be higher, to maintain longevity. So I don't really know if I have a conclusion about these M7s. There doesn't seem to be definitive documentation about the differences. All I know is it's more difficult to operate the M7A as modeled on the Harlem line, with constant on/off pulsing. I don't remember the train feeling jerky when I rode it last.
Thanks for those informations ! Yes, the LIRR M7 are in fact slightly capped to reduce the strain put on the LIRR electrical infrastructure, which is why they are closer to 0,7 m/s² of acceleration instead of 0,9 m/s² for the Metro North. I agree, minimal acceleration and minimal braking on the in-game M7A is too strong, which results in playing with the throttle lever too often. And you're right, EMUs are designed to be perfectly usable when using full throttle on dry rails, which are the design specs. Here is an example with a SEPTA Silverliner V train (watch at 1m20s) : In passenger service you start off gently and once the train is moving you can put the throttle to the max. According to Fan Railer, The Silverliner V are rated to accelerate with a rate of 1,34 m/s² (3 MPH/s).
Good video. It does indeed prove that the Metro North M7A can be considered realistic. If you look at the speeds and the times, it's a little slower to 30, but then within a couple seconds of what I recorded. And I tested with empty cars. We'll assume this was not on a significant downhill. I am surprised SEPTA runs into the 90 mph range. At 3 mph/s it's fast, because I am very familiar with the forces on the NYC subway cars, and you have definitely have to hold on to something for acceleration and more so for braking. Those are nominally 2.5 mph/sec and 3.0. Just wish the power application curve was mapped a little more smoothly to the control lever in the M7A. Also they tweaked the detent to make it quicker to get over, which is good. I got used the the timing of the LIRR and often went over the detent on the Harlem line. And speaking of starting off smoothly in passenger service. I always appreciate an operator letting off the brake in the last second to prevent that final stopped jerk back. It's annoying and makes everyone do that foot shuffle. Can tell they overshot if the last second is a hard brake.
In fact the M7A can not accelerate as much as the Silverliner V in the video. The offcial spec sheet for the M7 family, to which the M7A belongs, states 2 MPH/s and not 3. The M7 has inferior performance compared to the Silverliner V, and should also accelerate slower than the NYC subway trains. As I explained before, if the MTA stated that they want a 2 MPH/s train, the builder won't build something better as it would cost more and is not required
Yep the MTA can be real cheap. But with recent projects they seem to like to overspend when it isn't necessary
Haha, maybe you're right. I'm really interested in NYC subway and commuter trains, but I only have an exterior view of things and I'm not really informed about all the MTA projects. But I can tell you that even in Europe, some brand new trains commuter trains are really sluggish. The "Regio2N" train for example, is only rated for 1,34 MPH/s (0,6 m/s²) in its 110 meter-long variant, and the max throttle won't make you break records However, they replace old-fashioned locomotive-hauled commuter trains so they still are an improvement. There could be many reasons that could limit the specified acceleration, such as a weak eletrical substations on your network, that would not be able to cope with more powerful trains and would shut down everything (if they don't burn something). That is why the LIRR M7 have an inferior acceleration versus the M7A, because it's capped to preserve the LIRR electrical systems. This is well-reproduced in the TSW LIRR DLC. But as demonstrated, if the real Metro North M7A has the current MN M7A in-game performance, it would be one of the fastest-accelerating train in the world ... which it is not
Yes, what you say is confirmed by there being no documented evidence of the M7A being different with propulsion. That would be the power profile as shown with the LIRR. Let me reword what I said before. The video shows that a train of a similar type may have that performance profile. So the M7A modeling is realistic in the sense that it could exist. Real commuter trains with that kind of performance exist, so at least we can drive knowing it's not just sim physics. As to it representing the Metro North, all indications suggest it should be closer to the LIRR, as you stated a few times.
Yeah such a train could exist, that's true. It would be a really high performance train. However it would be prone to wheelslip. On a side note, it is admitted that anything stronger than 3 MPH/s of acceleration is over the comfort zone, and it would increase the risks of people falling and hurting themselves. That's why even rubber-tyred subways do not go above that rate when accelerating or braking in full service.
Well that's what the video showed. It was a Philadelphia SEPTA commuter train. It was a little slower than the modeled M7A but not by much and would assume was loaded. It was a bit slower than the TSW M7A initially for as you note, to prevent wheel slip. Would need to have technology or good operators to handle higher power. Agreed with the 3 mph/s g forces. NYC Subways at max braking start to feel a bit uncomfortable and they can nominally do 3 mph/s.
Yeah on dry rails there is no problem, but as soon as the rails are polluted by water or fallen leaves like in autumn, you lower the max tractive effort available before slipping. That's why wheelslip and the appropriated careful, relaxed driving, is important to take into account when building timetables. They still have to be manageable under those conditions, otherwise the train networks would easily become an absolute mess. The worst is not, as one may think, when it rains heavily (as it washes the rails), but when it rains just a little so the rolling surface becomes kind of "greasy". Tight curves also lower adherence because the 2 wheels of an axle are not supposed to rotate at the same speed (but they are forced to do so), so they are in a kind of equilibrium, with non-optimal adherence conditions. And you're right, better technologies and software are important to prevent wheelslip, even with an "agressive" driver that does not adapt his driving style to the conditions. Here is an example of such a bad driving style, even on an average EMU : The primitive automatic anti-wheelslip systems of the Class 465 act by suddenly cutting off power to slipping axles. Here it is because the driver keeps on accelerating too much. Recent EMUs are softer and more progressive. About the driver, when driving like that, he does not even gain time ... As a final point, for the same total train power, it is better to have a higher number of powered axles (even if each of them is individually less powerful) if you want to preserve the train performances in suboptimal conditions. But hey, I digress
Hi, Does anyone knows if the M7A acceleration and handling have been corrected in TSW 3, or does it still behave like a kart ?
I regained some interest for the Harlem line thanks to the revamped LIRR DLC but remembered that the main train of this route has some issues. So I found a cab ride showing what had been discussed before, that is to say how broken the Harlem M7A is in TSW ... even with a full power starting, the real one doesn't accelerate like the TSW rocket one ! (starting at full power is at 50s and another full power acceleration at 2m25s) I guess it is still not fixed ?
Did a run on the Harlem Line today and these caught my attention. Have there been flatcars in the sidings previously? I only remember the box cars, the hoppers and the tank cars. I don't remember ever seeing these flatcars on the route previously.
