Ts22 - The Fabulous F3

I will admit I have sometimes come out negatively, but I also try to have an understanding that sometimes there are things that are not in DTG's or even a developer's control. Unexpected problems with a signal on a route, like London to Brighton approaching Victoria in the City Express scenario (at least this is reproducible, so do not save and resume). A sudden loss of your entire train at speed, as has happened to me on both Cajon and Sherman (I document both in a Sherman video on Arrival of the Thunderheads). The dispatcher occasionally routing you into another train. All we can do is laugh it off, report it, and hope it ever gets looked at, even if it can't be reproduced and it's determined to be an Act of God™. But when it gets to starting to insult people, that's where it crosses the line for me, as you state. I do however wish they'd take reports of easily fixable problems (why is a certain scenario worth only 600, 750, or 400 points?) and quickly repair the easy to fix things. That's a Career thing.

I know, for the F3, I made DTM aware of the comments from the first two reviews; both fair reviews pointing out things to improve, without at the same time being an insult comic. Hopefully some things get fixed. We'll have to see.

 

Good post, Cyclone. Your approach is, in my view, exactly the right one ... point out valid issues in a constructive way and contact the developer. I am not hear to speak for DTM, but it has already indicated on its FB page that some fixes are planned and in the works, something DTM is quite good about. The true motives of a few, who use insults, vulgarity, even profanity, and post countless repetitive tirades here and elsewhere, has to be questioned.

 

I messaged DTM about some of the errors. It seems that some things slipped past the QA testing. He is, however, working on a patch to correct the errors that were made. Texture improvement, number board texture, placing the numbers on the UP B-units on the correct end, and a few other things. With a combination of a computer malfunction and DTG not giving him time to correct everything, who knows what could've happened?

 

I must question your standards of excellent content then, DTM has failed to improve over time, and while this quality was acceptable in 2012, in 2022 ad standards have changed. While not every developer can release Searchlight or K-Trains quality content, improvement in physics and sounds is to be expected, to say nothing of models, textures and in cab functionality.

 

Sorry, but you entirely missed the point of my post. The post has nothing to do with my personal "standards of excellent content," but rather states that the collective TS community, representing thousands of individuals, through its buying and satisfaction habits over a decade and more has found much to like and enjoy from DTM products. Whether an individual approves of my personal standards is entirely beside the point.

 

that's a pretty damning indictment of the American TS community then, quality of this sort does not fly in the UK, German, or Czech scenes.

 

Then just do not buy it!

Some people might like it and does not.

I myself only buy what I find interesting even those which have negative reviews.
Some of them are really fun.

About this Electro-Motive’s classic F3 streamlined diesel I do not know yet if I am going to buy it or not.

Have lot of other dlc which I need to play first.

 

Exacty my point of view.

 

But no mention of the missing Spring Hangers on the trucks? Or does that fall under improved texture and shaders.

 

Michael Stephan has already held his hand up for the missing hangers and has sent the fix to DTM so it is in hand (info from RWA forum).

 

We're not doing it purposefully Gary. How many times has DTM created content that well, was far below our expectations? There are literally YouTubers who can even confirm that. Have you ever heard of Schnauzahpowahz? He's a YouTuber that mainly focuses on giving his first impressions on most Train Simulation content, mostly involving Train Simulator. He reviewed DTM's Union Pacific F3 dlc not too long ago and if you listen very closely to the tone of his voice, you can hear that he doesn't sound very impressed. Our expectations are far higher than that Gary, and you darn well know it and so don't DTG and DTM. Searchlight Simulations can provide the most top notch and quality content and get all of the details right without us even lifting a finger. What can SS do that DTM cannot do? Practically everything DTM and DTG can do. I'm very impressed with a majority of the dlcs for Train Simulator don't get me wrong. DTM has good stuff here and there, but most of the time, they don't take things up a notch. I wouldn't have complained, if the dlc was enjoyable. The only thing I've seen enjoyable in the dlc was the rollingstock. The textures of the F3s and rollingstock are okay to me a little because I like bright colors if they're in all the right spots, but I'm starting to realize that color isn't everything. Quality is. If you want to listen to a real locomotive, take a good ear assault on YouTube. The horns, the idle and operation audio, the buttons, the levers, the switches, and the wheels all sound real, because they are real. If SS took requests, I could ask SS to make an authentic CSX EMD GP40-2 right now and they would make it no problem. It might take a few months, but at least I know they're programming the Geep to be a true-to-life-loco and not a loco that uses recycled audio and the same LOVE from 2012. The strobe light on the F3s look cool, yes they absolutely do, but why couldn't it be a Pro Range dlc? All I'm sayin' is that I expected a little more from the dlc than what was in the reviews. I just want to really give DTM a review that will knock their socks off and inspire them to create more of the good stuff and less bad stuff. Has DTM heard an actual EMD F3? Here are YT videos of real EMD F3 Operation(s)
Video Links:






Those are how real EMD F3s sound. Horns and all.

 

It would take longer than a few months. The Bnsf sd40-2s took almost 2 years to make

 

Just a comment to typical: maybe Gary does not know what you are saying, as he may not have had any involvement with SS or seen their products. Maybe he will be interested to look though. But keep in mind that things are a lot different as a publisher. The cost to DTG is much higher day-to-day than SS, which is a smaller outfit. So they do operate on quicker schedules.

Do not get me wrong at all. SS does great stuff. But two years for a product is not something everyone can do as a developer.

 

Wish I knew that.

 

I get that, but if they're going to promote content for Train Simulator, they need to be honest because they have a bad habit of [edited - provocative - JD]. The most obvious example being the F3 dlc.
"For anyone, and everyone, interested in classic first-generation diesel railroading, this pack offers endless opportunities for captivating and enjoyable action on a wide variety of Train Simulator routes."
"And now, for Train Simulator comes a pack that is every bit as extraordinary as the F3 itself! Created by skilled developer DTM, the Union Pacific F3 DLC delivers an all-new and ultra-realistic F-unit and includes the legendary diesel in the liveries of Union Pacific plus eight popular Union Pacific predecessor railroads!" Yeah I don't think so. If Searchlight Simulations can produce content like that, it must be costing them more than DTG's spendings on publishing and [even creating some of their own dlcs at some points] updating content for the game or the game itself. I can't code because I don't know how to do it never mind my disability, but as a person who has chased trains since childhood, I know the difference between ultra-realistic and DTM. Ultra-realistic isn't even a freaking thing. Come on, really? How can you say something is "ultra-realistic" when there's literally a steam review that begs to differ? You just can't make that [removed - language - JD]. If you know the dlc isn't really what people were thinking of when they heard "Union Pacific EMD F3 Locomotive" then why [edited - provocative - JD] say the loco dlc was "ultra-realistic"? That doesn't make any sense.

 

You know how marketing works, right?

 

Yes I know how it works, but still why [removed - antagonistic - JD]? The dlc is far from what they claimed it was.

 

Seriously, do you just want many devs, like DTM, to have the same ultra-quality in detail, like Searchlight? Hate to bust that bubble, but that's not how it works at all, and not many have that kind of time or resources to make it that realistic. Like many have said, you'll be waiting around very long for something like that for years, if not longer than expected. Not every add-on made has to be prefect you know, it just have to be good enough to be accurate just to be enjoyable, not the extra mechanics that'll make me frustrated if I don't know what to actually do with it.

 

The guys at Searchlight put out great quality, while yes in a longer than TS normal period of time - but they've full time jobs elsewhere and do it in their spare time. SS has textures, models, sounds, physics and mechanics (for a more realistic feel)

Meanwhile devs like DTM seem to pump stuff out monthly......... heck bi-monthly even. So hes obvs got time. Maybe too much. Why not stop flooding the market with *meh* and extend the dev period longer to make a slightly better product?

Its got not much to do with mechanics really. If DTM upped the model, textures and sounds it would be MORE than enough to be a worthy product.
Heck even one of those three things


This is an apples to oranges comparison

 

Thank you. The complaint has been made, enough now.

 

I think you're missing the emotions running here.

When the F3 is a subject you love and a decent model is absent, you wait expectantly for its arrival. In your mind it will be super realistic; you imagine sitting at your PC driving it as if it was real and being taken to a world of interest, excitement and childhood memories. You plan out all the scenarios you will make or download, you see in your mind all the perfect opportunities you will have for it. The pre-release shots look encouraging, or if not you know the model will be improved because of course DTM shares your passion for the subject and will not release anything less than perfection. DTG reassure you that it will be fabulous and your heart says "believe, imagine, enjoy".

Then it's released and the disappointment is crushing. Your dreams, your pleasure, your assurance disappear, You have been robbed of your happy future. Your anger burns at the betrayal. Only the greatest pain and suffering by the developer can atone for their failure. You want to strike back, you want to repay the betrayal and everyone must know. So you reach for your Steam account to give them a review that will ensure no one else buys the product and your vengeance is complete.

Or you pause and realise that in a hundred years time nobody - least of all you - will care that the spring hangers weren't modelled properly.

It's OK to be disappointed, but keep a sense of proportion.

 

Uhh I think you're incorrect on two parts.
"Or if not you know the model will be improved because of course DTM shares your passion for the subject and will not release anything less than perfection." That part is incorrect. ABSOLUTELY VERY SO INCORRECT ACTUALLY! It's mind bogglingly hilarious that you think DTM shares the same amount of passion for quality as us Train Simulator fans do. Ha Ha Ha, NO. THEY DON'T! I care, there are other people who care. IF you can't see how annoying this situation with DTM is, you're part of the problem. Not that you have to agree with me, I'm just disappointed and frustrated with your lack of understanding as to why some of us are frustrated with this dlc in the first place. The main problem is "not caring." That is one of the problems. If you don't care, then you shouldn't be playing the game then. You should be finding another game to play. I would have no problem taking DTM down if I could code and come up with absolute quality locos and rollingstock, that is if I could. But I can't because I'm not a coding person. I don't know how code works and I still wouldn't understand it no matter how much it was presented to me. The very first review was tearing DTM a new one. What makes it worse is that DTG's expectations are so low, they thrive off of people who just buy this content and not care about the lack of quality that comes with it. IF a developer is going to make something, they should certainly care about what the customers care about. Everyone's opinion matters.

The other part you got wrong was this:
"Or you pause and realise that in a hundred years time nobody - least of all you - will care that the spring hangers weren't modelled properly." That one part right there has so much wrong written all over it, it makes the dlc itself look accurate. I care, I will care for as long as I'm alive. I'm definitely sure there are others right now who care a lot more than me. You saw the YouTube videos I linked previously. How much more information from me do you need to believe me? Maybe you're just as blind as other Train Simulator people. I like the pro range content better than the crappy dlcs that exist for this game. I wouldn't be surprised if people started demanding refunds for this dlc. Because those people care. They care and they know what a real EMD F3 is. You're talking to someone who's been chasing trains since he was young. I'm 19 now and even I know damn well that dlc is far from accurate. I've seen videos and compared those videos to the dlc. Everything about the dlc (except the liveries at least) is WRONG. I like the liveries yeah, but I don't like the fact I was hyped for something I should have known was a huge LOVE up from the beginning. How many times can this go on before people start realizing that they're wasting their money for crappy dlcs that aren't even close to the real things the dlcs are trying to recreate? Hopefully not too long. I don't want a world where no one cares about anything. I want a world where people care about what they're buying. DTM is cheap and I'm not going to hold punches. That was a cheap dlc that should have had a price reduction immediately after the first review and they swore the audio was just an incident. It sounds like they were seeing if they could sneak the 2012 audio into the F3s amid the hype and then swore it was an accident when people caught on to the 2012 audio implemented into the F3s. I call it how I see it so...

 

I’ve been a railfan since I was 3, i’m now 73 nearer to 74 and don’t tell me I don’t care but how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over. Shouting louder than anyone else doesn’t get you heard any better it just turns everyone off. You’ve made your complaint, made your complaint and made your complaint - enough - if the message hasn’t got through by now it isn’t going to.

 

Seriously give it a rest. Is the DTM F3 bad? Yes. Is it the worst crime since lootboxes? No, it's not even close. You've made your point days ago, another wall of text isn't gonna do anything.

 

Can you please cool it? You are really ruining the enjoyment of these forums by other people by repeating the same thing over and over. You will find many people here agree with you that the F3 was, let's say, not the best thing since sliced bread. You will, however, find very few people who like watching you natter on about it. So please stop nattering and let someone else natter at some point. Cheers.

 

Having looked at Schnauzahpowahz's video on the F3. I feel ready to give my own two cents. I do also just wanna present the way I see the situation overall on the subject of DTM and what matters in this sim. How important are the details, and is it right to rivet count or dive deep?

I can understand the frustration of many in this pack, and I was very disappointed myself. I hoped that this pack would be an improvement over certain things, such as the SD45-2 and especially the DL-109. Nice to see new roads modeled at least, but I would rather have one brilliant Union Pacific F3 than 15 mediocre models. Quality over quantity.

I like fidelity to the prototype, which is why I value modeling above all else. Incorrect railroad specs just, hit me on a different level, because you have photos at your disposal, and especially with modern locomotives, you have Michael Eby's Trainiax drawings to compare, and even use to help with correct phases and specifications. In the case of the Conrail SD45-2, I actually commented on a WIP shot and DMed him on Facebook regarding the issue of cab signals for it. In hindsight there were other things to comment on, such as the fuel tanks for it and the Erie Lackawanna variant. (EL equipped them with 5000 gallon tanks, which extend up to the running board), and the unique EL style horn placement, which was recreated correctly on another (CSX) unit, but not on the Lackawanna unit. It's a case of the more you look, the more you see problems. I know it was a Seaboard/CSX pack, not a Conrail/EL pack, but if more time was taken, perhaps these things could've been resolved before release and departure to another project.

He did reply, but haven't seen anything more result from it, and probably won't, especially due to the fact that all that occured in December and here we are in another pack and in a new year. I don't know if he takes into regard suggestions or constructive criticism, perhaps it's only from certain individuals, I don't know.

The point of this tangent is you have good resources at your disposal, use them. There are people too who are absolute gurus on these subjects. I love looking at the Bergen Line and it's related material because the guy who made the route knows his stuff and knows his subject, that's why it's one of my favorites.

Modding is one of the greatest things with this sim, you can easily mod everything, from a texture enhancement, horn replacement or a full Doki Doki Literature club themed menu with accompanying music...

:P
You can change a lot in this game, which is probably what's allowed it to last so long and what allows it to have a community backing it. I feel sympathy for TSW modders, because I've seen how difficult the modding process is, but I also admire their dedication and perseverance. The lack of 3rd party support also lets it down, unless it's a release backed by DTG for Steam payware (which DTG will get a cut of of course). 3rd party is the fuel that keeps the sim going, and I think once DTG moves onto Train Sim VR or whatever's coming down the line, TSW is gonna get left behind and gather dust.

There's a lot you can do with this model:
- Textures can be fixed, even though DTM has always been known for flat texture quality, as if he doesn't bake his models, or at least improves the alpha channel.
- Sounds can be replaced and this pack has support from the team behind the 16-567 enhancement on TSC, so we can move off those classic prime mover and brake sounds.
- Particles can be replaced
- Flares can be replaced, though it is difficult due to how the way it's set up. Oh and DTM flares also seem to kill just about everything.
- Couplers can be replaced.
- Parts can be noded off (though it's usually arbitrary in what can be) and child objects can be added, including decals.
- Quick drive consists can be modified.
- Models can even be rescripted or have features added onto the engine script, as the great Marty and Searchlight Simulations have demonstrated in the past.

... but I do wish there was more out of the box to appreciate.

I sometimes do get products to mess around with them (namely the U34CH). But I, both a developer (modder) and user shouldn't have to get a model just to enhance it.

Rolling stock... Just put some michael stephen stuff behind it, because at least those have the excuse of age to back them, (and they have character/charm).
To sum it up:
textures,
bad truck proportions (as usual), and low quality all around. Flatcars are probably the best of the bunch.

Cab stuff...
Inclusion of a prime mover is cool. But there's just not a lot to it. Shiny and the good old hawtdawg handles. You can open doors and windows, which is normal DTM standard. Otherwise that's about it.

The whole thing just feels, as Schnauzah said, unfinished.

In summary, just make one unit and one railroad absolutely amazing, include the different varaints (there are like 4 or 5 different phases of F3s that were manufactured) and we can worry about other stuff like repaints and railroad specs later. All we needed was a Union Pacific F3. There's a lot more that could've been done to flesh it out.

As for the ongoing discussion:
I'm a critic, and I do think we should call things out when they're not correct or badly done. I feel like a lot of things were missed by beta testers, especially model errors where a picture to in game comparison can really make a difference. Perhaps others can, but I personally just can't call this excellent unless I refrain from looking at it up close or going in the cab. For those who don't believe that you can be respectful and critical of a model, you can. I don't believe in personal attacks, DTM is just like the rest of us, a member of the community and an individual. But I do believe in "product assassination" if it's necessary. I think it should be made quite clear when a product is below what should be standards for 2022.

It's things like these that keep us lagged so far behind the rest of TS content from other countries. Some people just don't care, but there are people who do.

If you're going to do something, do it right from the beginning.

 

And if the guy does what you require and charges the appropriate price I can hear the screams already. With the Steam and DTG fees taken out of the retail price he doesn’t earn much per sale.
(My apologies for starting sentences with prepositions, if anyone even noticed).

 

Has anyone considered that he's probably going to fix a lot of the stuff that's wrong? I am hearing he had PC problems during the production of this, so it kinda set him back but he had to still meet the deadline. This, unfortunately, is the result of meeting that deadline. Hopefully most of the problems being brought up are handled and this can eventually become a good DLC, but it's going to remain flagged with all sorts of negative reviews due to the rushed release. This can hurt sales of the DLC even if it turns into the best thing on Steam.

 

I mean, he should of been fixing things since 2019, starting with the Broadway Limited....

 

Even with the faults the game is better for his work otherwise it would all be SD70s and Gevos (boring).

 

I've had the F3 pack for a week now, and very happy with it

 

I would imagine someone else making things like SD45s or GP30s if DTM hadn't

 

No one did though.

 

Reppo
-GP20 (WP,UP,SP,BN, and a planned ATSF one that never released)
-E-33

Travel By Train
-SD60
-SD70
-GP40X
-GP50 HH

virtualRailroad
-RS-11

VRC
-C30-7
-C39-8
-U30C

Though TBT is the only dev who is currently active, VRC disappeared, vR never made any other US loco besides the RS11, and Reppo rarely does his own work anymore....

 

Travel by train are in association with DTM.

 

This is news.

 

Yes, because DTM did.
If DTM was never a developer for train simulator then someone else would likely have filled the gaps, maybe even dovetail themselves.

 

Sorry that logic doesn’t hold water for example there are at least 3 GP9s, DTG, Britkits, Great Northerner, at least 2 AC4400s, 2 SD60s and others that I can’t be bothered to think of. Apart from the excellent vR RS11, a couple of Alco RS1s and RS3s plus Dogmouse’s Alco S2 only DTM has attempted any of the more obscure prototypes

 

As train sim lovers, we get tired of DTM having an excuse every time they get something wrong. There were good models they have done and released, yes (I have read the reviews), but those are outnumbered by all of the horrible ones that not only lack quality, but also lack realism and effort. I know effort when I see it, and most of DTMs models just look like a bunch of projects that suffered from intense procrastination. The only thing I can really vouch for is the GP50 which, according to the reviews on steam, was very well done and pretty true to life. But that's the GP50 and one so far. The rest should have been done over again.
There's a saying: "If you want something done right, do it yourself." But I can't because I'm not a coding person. I just can't do code because it's not my thing. It'll take me years before I'm able to make something out of code or program something with it. So I have to rely on third party enhancements just so I don't have to avoid going "Eugh" every time I look at an unfinished DTM locomotive. It's horrifying. It's mind boggling. And it's absurd. 2012 is dead and gone.

Edited by DTG Natster - I have removed inappropriate language and sections of your post where you are dictating how other players should feel about DTM.

 

We’re tired of your rantings.

 

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Look. We're not defending him. Developers make mistakes. They're human. And they have to work to a deadline that is not of their choosing. You think this is bad? Play anything by EA. They force incomplete products to market and don't update them. At least this game gets regular updates every year, and various routes get updated from time to time, and third-party devs try to get updates in. But they don't have control over DTG's schedule. QA exists, and changes must go through it. So relax and stop being asinine here. DTM knows about the problems (I even personally gave him links to the very first reviews on Steam) and I'm sure fixes will be provided at some point. Hopefully it's enough to satisfy you. And if it isn't, then do me a favour: go find an F3 and take it for a drive in the real word - oh, wait, you can't. They're all in museums.

 

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I think this release was an embarrassment and even I'm tired of this, you repeat the same argument in each wall of text, and frankly at this point you're making the earlier pro DTM troll look reasonable.

 

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