Route Merging Hype

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Alex_m30x#7297, May 3, 2022.

  1. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Even though Matt and JD made it clear if it’s not on the roadmap …(bingo!) I feel that after 5ish years we are defiantly getting closer.
    What routes currently in the game would be the best/ most fun merged. The merged route can add a small amount of connecting track such as lewes to wiversfield but not like 100 miles of high speed.
    Are there any routes which are partly in the game or not at all yet?
    Personally I would love to see a Victoria to Medway, imagine being able to drive from Faversham to st Pancras/ gravesend, the to Victoria( maybe also Charing Cross) then to Brighton(and Eastbourne!!!!)
    What do you think?
     
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  2. KMAN

    KMAN Well-Known Member

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    I really welcomed the discussion around Route Mergers/Modular routes and hope DTG keep thinking about this inconjunction with the community. I would love to see more Routes with future upgrades built in. My Example is Cathcart Circle. I think they could of laid more track say the East Kilbride/Barrhead branch or extended the track to Lanark/Motherwell or Larkhall. Released these areas without scenery then later on release a 156 DLC for the Diesel branch and/or Add in a 318/320 for the Lanark/Motherwell section with added missing scenery. Give a DLC room to grow over time! Thats what I would love to see.
     
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  3. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    I think this topic has been mentioned just a little too many times now on streams to not be something they are seriously planning to bring. Very excited for this! Personally, I would be very happy if they extended LGV Méditerranée to Lyon.
     
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  4. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    What I found interesting was despite Matt saying extensions would never happen previously tonight he said first off they'd perhaps do an extension before moving onto a modular concept
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So you say not to include loads of new track and then make this comment?

    Gravesend to Victoria would require an extension of the North Kent Lines to Lewisham and then the South London line via Denmark Hill to Brixton and Battersea. Thats quite a lot of route to make (and a LOT of stations)
    Even if they did the Chatham Mainline from Rochester to Victoria that's a lot of work with all the stations between VIC and Bromley then six more rural-ish stations before you hit Rochester (Strood station isn't on the CML though the line runs the length of the town along the river)

    I would expect "a merger" to be ten miles track or less with max one station otherwise you get into a module (paid minor DLC with additional timetables)
     
  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Nice if it would be GWE with the branches or extend to Oxford.
     
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  7. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, I don't think route merging has really moved as much of an inch at DTG. We know some of the UK and DE routes are based off the same tile origins, so a merger is possible (as shown by a certain modder on the community discord).

    But it really is something that DTG have to engineer in, and should have been actively doing "yesterday". Not that I don't think they will ever do it, but just being practical here.
     
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  8. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Keep your hype reeeeealy low on this.
     
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  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be a theme... Loads of things which could be a lot simpler if they're built in from the start. Hindsight is a wonderfully clear thing though
     
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  10. dave from Cornwall

    dave from Cornwall Well-Known Member

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    Yes! I think giving GWE some love would be great.
    Give it the "rush hour" treatment!
    Think the numerus short branches off the mainline would be an excellent extension!
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Especially as for the off peak the branch lines are largely self contained. I’m curious if this “huge” Pres Crew update might be laying the ground for this route to be the guinea pig.
     
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  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Huge thread about it here mate.

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/route-mergers-in-2022-lets-build-a-network….50511/
     
  13. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, although in fairness... they seem to slowly be learning. TSW, core engineering issues appear to bite back sooner rather than later. But it's good that they are identifying now and resolving.
     
  14. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again, route mergers would be fantastic, but that shouldn't mean we get a concentration of routes around a specific region because they can be merged, depriving other unexplored regions of potential content. Maybe we should get a handful of routes that will connect others (e.g. Chatham Main Line connecting SEHS and BML) but that shouldn't be every release.

    There's also the argument of whether the route mergers are actually beneficial, e.g. do services actually traverse over multiple routes, or do the routes only intersect at a terminus where you'll have to walk to another platform to drive another service (essentially saving the need to exit to the menu and back to swap routes).

    BML - ECW merge would be good only if it includes the connecting line from Wivelsfield to Lewes. Chatham Main Line from Victoria to Rochester would allow services to be extended onto Faversham, but none continue along the Brighton Main Line, so merging there would only save the need to swap routes via the menu - though is this a thing worth implementing anyway (as something people would want to avoid)?
     
  15. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would be great to see GWML extended to Oxford with the Thames Valley branches. Another I would like to see is ECW extended to Hastings or Ore.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely it shouldn't be every release, and even that route mentioned is a whole route in itself rather than an extension. There's almost twenty stations and hundreds of services would need to be added in (along with three or four new types of train)
    The CML is NOT a simple extension or addition at all
     
  17. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking in the context that overlapping (separate) routes would merge (i.e. snap together) rather than be extended upon.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely they should. Unfortunately people are already saying this should be restricted (GWE too old etc) rather than embraced, but we need to be careful that what people think of or talk about as extensions could be a complete route that is adjacent
     
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  19. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I rather any extension was instead a separate route then able to merge together, e.g. the Thames Valley from Oxford to Reading being a separate route, with something like a Class 165 and Class 220 included, which would then join up to GWE if you own both.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I know this may only work in the UK but personally I would see a back end pretty much like realtimetrains where each station and junction has a next step, and if they just added "portal" where relevant (or remove said portal where the person has those DLC in place) then it gets easier down the line.

    Of course this WOULD mean more work for Joe...
     
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  21. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I think our chances of getting route mergers in TSW2 are close to 0.
    Hopefully DTG will notice that there is interest in mergers and will do the needed base work when they start working on the Unreal 5 version of TSW in a few years.
     
  22. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    They say making the timetables is the tricky part, but surely if you've got part of the timetable already made that can be copied across and modified (e.g. extra stopping points for longer services). If BML and ECW were to merge, surely the BML timetable would be used as a base and only the Eastbourne/Seaford to Victoria services would need modifying? (they might need to add the Brighton to Lewes/Seaford/Hastings services back in if they can't be copied).

    Then again I have no idea how the timetable is created in the first place so it's probably far more complicated than that :|
     
  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This is why Thames Valley branches would be ideal.
    At the time the route is set, both Henley and Marlow had self contained services outside the peak. The latter went over to “donkey” working in the rush hour with the branch 2 car 165 being shut in on the Marlow branch to/from the Down platform at Bourne End while the through trains to/from London use the Up platform. Windsor is self contained all day with ECS moves from and to Reading Depot at start and end of service. I have a feeling the Greenford services are already in the timetable. The freight could be shoehorned in relatively easily if Colnbrook and Brentford were included.
     
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  24. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about RRO RSN with the Hagen Vorhalle Hump Yard.
    Yard has automatic Switches like the RSN DB BR363 intro Hagen Gbf and working Hump Yard. 363 is not used on the Hump a DB V90 DB BR294 is used. Can be substituted by RRO G6 RSN DB BR363 or the Blue Paint Riesa-Dresden Tharandter Rampe versions. Future options DR V100 from Main Spessart Bahn DR V60
     
  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Certainly the recommissioning of the Iowa-class battleships in the 1980s would have been considerably easier had their WW2 builders made provision for the addition of Tomahawk missile launchers......
     
  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not quite the equivalent. Tomahawks didn't exist in the early 40s, but adjoining railways and linking routes together existed before TSW did. Certainly it was being asked for and being done in TSC when TSW was being developed
     
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  27. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    The Chatham mainline would be a separate route, which would eventually joint to create a mega route, this would be v much in the distance
    But at least now they’ve moved from never to maybe, and that they’ve been thinking about it on every route.
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Fair point.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I even remember reviews of gwe when it came out and some players were already asking for extensions. I feel like had they started this process eariler, DTG wouldn't be in this position of potentially breaking routes or can't do it because they have to basically rebuild from scratch. It's not surprising to see players wanting mergers or extensions and dtg should've known that from the moment they were developing the game. I do get that they want to make different routes which is good but not everyone wants to buy every single new dlc so I feel like they should've have had some sort of plan from the beginning because it is clear that many players do want to see route mergers/extensions but it would be very difficult for DTG to do because of what seems like a lack of hindsight.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But this is the point. Doesn't HAVE to be a mega anything. In essence when you get in a train it should have a timetable set and whether that's disappearing into a portal or continuing as a player train or AI on that route could be determined dynamically
    As it stands right now Victoria only exists on BML. If they make CML they don't have to remake Victoria because the one we have right now is fine, they'd just have to remove the hidden barrier (which you can do with a mod anyway). Only difference is those 465 and 375s become drivable past the curve off Grosvenor Bridge and the game already knows that the train will continue on past where the portal is now
    What does happen (dynamically in the background) is the Brighton traffic then portals out somewhere south of Battersea
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think it's as much that people want to feel that they're GOING somewhere, and Reading isn't really "somewhere". OK it isn't anywhere that many people want to go but still... If they could do a HST drag to Cardiff or Bristol that would be a start for some. Carmarthen and Penzance would be the aim, but of course that's only really a dream for TSW simply because of the DLC memory issues they have

    Some of that will be sorted by the dynamic DLC loading solution for the PS5 DLC limit so who knows

    But of course people want all the lines from all over the place rather than building a network which would necessitate spreading out from a central nexus to work efficiently and bring variety quicker than would otherwise be the case
     
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  32. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    To see ECW and BML united would be a dream for me.

    For the work to merge them plus the Lewes to Wivesfield branch plus an extension to Bexhill and some added freight services I'd pay the price of a full route without hesitation.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    OK, here's a possible "click and merge" option from GWE (and no, it's not a simple "let's go to Bristol...")

    We've already got GWE, and We've got Redhill in BML. Do the route between the two and extend the current 166 from Gatwick all the way to Reading. Additional route miles 42 (the bit from Rehill to Reigate is already in game but would be brought up to spec in the new DLC)
    This would introduce more 166 that isn't just heading into London as well as Guildford and Wokingham, both of which are SWR

    Then do the line from Reading to Southampton, which would add more SWR stuff, as well as Cross Country and a LOT of freight. Route miles 43

    Then add Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury. Fast SWR running towards Exeter between Basingstoke and Salisbury. 158 and GWE from Salisbury into Southampton. Route miles just under 45

    So then we have PAD - RDG, RDG - GTW, VIC - GTW, RDG - SOU, SAL - SOU...

    Build the WCW route from Brighton to Portsmouth and then onto Southampton and you've got a heck of a lot of route miles and variation you can drive.

    Similarly you could start at Manchester and build the routes to Blackpool, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Crewe (also to Liverpool) and so on.
     
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  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    obviously... not happening but hey I can dream (and I'm off to round up that herd of flying pigs)
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Four more southern England routes. That will really make the Jocks and the Northumbrian lads happy........
     
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  36. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Would love to see it. I'm not optimistic for existing content, but if they planned for it going forward, I absolutely think modular design (e.g. Run 8 method) is the way to go.

    I think a big hurdle is decoupling rolling stock from the routes themselves. This design choice has hobbled TSW in more than one way.
     
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  37. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    People shouldn't expect hundreds of miles of combined lines anytime soon. It has taken TSC over a decade to make a sizeable network of lines in the south east and that is still a relatively small proportion of the total network in real life. The way it stands, I don't see them merging any more than maybe three or four routes together, unless the majority of new releases were concentrated in a specific region.
     
  38. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I don't really see the point in route mergers unless they allow longer end-to-end runs. Attaching Chatham Main Line to London to Brighton is effectively pointless as no trains gl from Ramsgate to Brighton. It's still two routes but with a longer loading screen, and I really don't see the point in this case.
    ^ These
    While these are extensions and not mergers and therefore require little work from DTG since we've had them before, I'd love to see all three in TSW. LGV Rhones-Alpes will make LGV worth playing because it will actually take time to complete, The East Coastway line is cut short (and would be even better with the Marshlink Line, which I wanted to build for TSW before I was rudely shunned by Matt Peddlesden) and GWE could also do with some extra distance.
     
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  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why the ECW was ended at Eastbourne, especially as the bit between there and Hastings is where you can actually see the sea! I would love to see the Marshlink line, preferably with a Thumper but I would take a class 171 I suppose!
     
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  40. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    We've gone near on 8 months since the last UK release, and no modern UK route on the road map. So if we are to see additional routes to connect on the GWE, LC and ECW then by my maths it will be 2035 before we get a UK modern image route north of the Watford Gap.
     
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  41. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    How appealing would route 'portals' be instead of mergers as an easier short term alternative? I.e. similar to the scenario markers but would load up an intersecting route at the same place/time in timetable mode. All it needs to do is to verify whether you own the route you are moving to, which could be done with a simple file check. No need to update timetables, just simply placing the marker at the relevant places for the relevant routes.

    Doing this would allow moving between routes without going back to the menu and resetting the time/weather. E.g. moving between the ticket barriers at Paddington on Great Western Express to the bottom of the staircase at Paddington on Bakerloo line - therefore allowing a player to traverse across multiple routes in one session. Seems like an appealing feature to me, even if it's not quite full scale as a route merge.
     
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  42. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about RRO RSN using the West end of Hagen Hbf. You will get this message do you wish to continue to Wuppertal Steinbeck Yes or no? Yes start RRO No standard option.
     
  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't really be a fan because it would hurt immersion knowing that it is effectively a separate route and not one complete route
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would be just as happy with a network of Northerrn routes, Midland routes, Western routes, the entire Cardiff and Swansea system... Basically something not entirely A2B with freight as an afterthought
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The issue with this for me would be that the bit past Ore especially is just a rural branch line with one type of service, one type of train and very little else to draw people to it unless they happen to live there.
    The Kent coast is OK and yep, seaside but there's actually little of interest going on down there. Driven it many many times especially the bits from Bexhill to Eastbourne (well Pevensey) and the other end around Battle, Rye etc and really it's just countryside with a rail line through it and not a very busy or complex rail line

    Depends on what you mean by "portals", if you mean that a player on a platform clicks on blue shining light and this loads in a scenario from a different DLC then this is basically laziness in saving someone three clicks and a couple of loading screens
    If you mean that you start a freight service on ECW and rather than stopping at Lewes you drive into a big blue portal and after a brief load you are then at another big blue portal on the BML in the same train doing the same service, then maybe...
    In other words "portalling" doesn't have to mean saving walking from one platform to another and clicking on a blue light, but it could mean continuing a drive that otherwise couldn't be achievable in game without some other dynamic means
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just picking up on this... The issue with places such as Newcastle is there is fairly limited scope within the 40/50 mile range to make something interesting as a network.
    Because DLC would have to stand on their own as well as in the merged system where within 50 miles on the network would form a decent end point?

    We've already got Darlington to Saltburn and a Whitby line wouldn't add too much, to the South you've got York (43 miles from Darlington) but that's 43 miles and two stations... Hardly a thrill a minute
    North you've got the line toward Berwick and Edinburgh, but thats dual track a2b again, so not really "a network"
    West You're off towards Carlisle, but not the whole way as it's too far

    At least in places like the South East, Midlands, Northwest you have networks with interlinked routes and more than one train doing one thing in each direction
     
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  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You could apply that thinking to vast swathes of the national rail network, especially on todays identikit railway!

    The section between Brighton and Eastbourne isn't exactly awe inspiring even if it is one of the most nicely modelled TSW routes so far! With an extension to Hastings and maybe even Ashford you could have a nice little rural section of railway which would feel like a fairly complete route, as far as I know very few services, if any, from Brighton terminate at Eastbourne. You would have variety with the electrostar, the class 313 on the Seaford branch and a class 171 Turbostar running to Ashford. Plus you have the operational interest of having to change ends at Eastbourne.

    It would be just as interesting as say Cathcart circle.
     
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  48. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You could have a nice interesting network based on the current line to Saltburn. The Bishop Auckland branch which would complete services to Saltburn as very few start at Darlington. There is the Durham coast line between Middlesbrough and Newcastle which set in 1989 still had busy industrial places like Billingham and is quite an interesting stretch of line. Yes the Esk valley branch is rural but that adds to the variety, it is also very scenic and it would be interesting seeing Whitby which is a historic and quite iconic British seaside town depicted, you could also run steam services between Grosmont and Whitby. You could have local services from Newcastle up to Morpeth/Alnmouth if you wanted to extend up the ECML or preferably on the Newcastle to Carlisle line you could go as far as Hexham as some services terminate there, although personally I would love to see the Newcastle to Carlise in its entirety. In 1989 it would have a good variety of traction and even set in the recent past it would contain enough variety in my opinion to keep it interesting.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention the freight only line to Boulby which really should have been included at the outset.
     
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  50. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    The line from Manchester Victoria to Bury would be a nice addition to NTP. It's about ten miles long, used side contact,1200v, third rail electrification and the first mile or so is already built. By the time NTP is set it was purely a suburban passenger route operated by two car class 504 units, doubled up in the rush hour. Alternatively, the Oldham loop line which started adjacent to Newton Heath depot and climbed up to Oldham and back through Rochdale would be an interesting extension but much longer. Almost a route in itself.
     
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