I'm not quite where to post this, but considering that I don't think will ever get addressed, but still want to get out there regardless, I've decided to post it here. But anyways, I want to use this thread to get out something that has rather bothered me about Hamburg – Lübeck. Now you might be asking 'If this another rant about how the dostos on this route are wrong?' no, actually. Okay 'Is it regarding the details on the 112 are incorrect?' again no. I'll tell you what it is, it's regarding an often overlooked aspect of a TSW route and that is the AI run-off. Now you might be wondering what an AI runoff it, well to put it simply, it's the stretch of track that separates the end of the route, from the AI spawn point, if a route just so happens to continues beyond the boundaries in which a route is set in. It's probably something that you either don't notice or care much, and that's mainly because there's quite and big distance between the AI spawn point and the end of a route. Plus, you also have the invisible walls are located far, far away from where an AI spawn point is located and unless you actually installed a mod to remove those invisible walls or you glitch the game in order to get beyond those walls (as I have done quite a few times recently) it is normally impossible to get up close to where an AI spawn point is located, regardless of whether you spawn in walking, or whether you try to drive a train into a off-limits area (where the game would normally end the simulation if you tried to do that). But on Hamburg – Lübeck... let's just say that I wasn't best impressed in the way that this route handles it AI run-offs and the distances between the spawn point and where the route starts/ends and in this thread, I wanted to show you all why that is the case. Now before I start, I know that recently, I've been posting threads where I have been able to get past the invisible walls of a route in order the explore areas that you normally be off-limits, like when I explored Sherman Hill's Track 3, the New Rochelle part of Harlem Line and the Hamilton Industrial Complex on Oakville Subdivision. I bring this up because I want to make this absolutely clear... … I have not done any camera tricks/modding at any point when getting the images I have for you here This isn't me downloading a mod that removes the invisible walls, this isn't me using the camera trick (drive into a tunnel and then engage the boom camera when inside) in order to get beyond the invisible walls. All I have done to get the images you are about to see here is just simply spawning into the route walking and then walked as far down the AI run-off as possible before being stopped by the invisible walls. I just want to get that out the way before anyone starts accusing me of doing such things like modding/camera trickery with what I have for you here. Now with that out the way, let's see what I have a problem with the AI run-offs here on this route. Lübeck Hbf To set the stage of this thread, let's start at the northern end of the route at Lübeck and I want to focus specifically on the stretch of track heading away northeast towards what would be in real life either Travemünde, Kiel or Puttgarden. Now you see the image above, take a look at that track heading northeast and allow me to ask you this...how far can you walk down that section before you reach the limits of the route? Like, the furthest you can walk before you come up against an invisible wall? Well, the answer is... …here. …and for those wondering what you can looking away from the route, well, it kinda looks like... …this. This is the point I want to get out here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the AI spawn point that I can see right in front of me. Now I don't know about you, but this feels like something that you shouldn't be able to see or be able to get near normally, as it is completely unimmersive to see a train spawn right before your very own eyes before moving on into the route, and the same in reverse with a train coming into an AI runoff and then de spawn right in front of you. Normally this isn't a problem most of the time, as the invisible walls are located quite far from a place like this, but on this route, you can get quite close to the AI spawn points, something like I said, shouldn't be somewhere you should even be able to get anywhere near in the first place. I should also mentioned here that I don't have any video footage to show this in action, but I think you can get the general idea from the images I have here for you. Plus, this is something you can go and see for yourself. Just walk past the end of the route at Lübeck and eventually, you will find yourself here and all you have to do at that point is what for a service to spawn/despawn here (which for the most part is the freight service that run on this route, as they are the only service that go beyond the Lübeck end of the route). The same can be said for all the other areas I have for you here, except one, which I'll get to later. But in the case of Lübeck, it's not too bad here as this is in an area that I doubt many people will visit on foot anyways. It's what goes on at the other end of the route that I begin to have problems with. General view of Hamburg area on the map Now I want to begin this by having a look at how this area looks on the current TSW2 map down below. As you can see, you have the section coming in and out of Hamburg Hbf heading in the North-easterly direction and you have the section down to the yard at Rothenburgsort that is used by freight services on this route. Now from having a look at what this area looks like in real life, there is actually far more trackage located in the area that in-between these two locations, including a stretch of track that directly connects Hamburg Hbf to Rothenburgsort. Now admittedly, at the time this route was first being preview, I did think to myself that there is probably more trackage located in this area, it's just that it's been covered over on the map, as this was coming off of several routes that had large chunks in inaccessible trackage covered over on routes like the Bakerloo Line, LGV Med and Southeastern High Speed. But as it turns out, all of the trackage you see in the map above is all of trackage that has been represented as part of this route. There are no major tracks hidden away as far as I can tell and the only tracks that are hidden are those related to AI spawn points, and this has a pretty bad consequence on how the AI runoffs look and the distances between the invisible walls and the AI spawn points on this route, as you will see. Hamburg Hbf Starting with maybe the most noteworthy one, the track heading south out of Hamburg Hbf towards what would be in real life, Harburg, and beyond to either Bremen, Münster or Hannover. Now like I just said, I did think before this route was released that maybe there was extra tracks leading away from this area, but in reality, there isn't in game. Or at the very least, none that are accurate what is really there in real life. This is where the invisible wall is located... …and this above you is what the area looking away of Hbf looks like. This image I should also say wasn't taken right at the limit of the invisible walls, but rather at the end of platforms 11 & 12. The limit of the route is located just a few metres in front of this image. But again, this right infront of you is the AI runoff, somewhere that shouldn't be normally seen by the player, which means that you could literally see trains spawn/de-spawn right before you're eyes as they are going in and out of the route. But what makes this worse than the Lübeck end is that this is somewhere that can be seen from the player, regardless of where you are in the station at platform level, even if you don't come in this direction while walking. This is also why I'm not the biggest advocate for putting more AI traffic around Hamburg Hbf on this route, because while it would certainly help liven this area up, it would be completely unimmersive to see trains spawn/despawn within sight of the station. It would have look much better if the track was extended a few miles further away from the station heading south in order to see services from that direction naturally come into/out of the station from afar, instead of seeing them jarringly spawn right before your eyes. What also makes this disappointing is that, from looking at real life maps of this area, on the left of that image you just saw, is a yard that is supposedly used by trains that run on this route when not in use, as seen in the image below. What's more is that behind the yard lies a stretch of track that directly connects Hamburg Hbf to Rothenburgsort yard. So the fact that not even that yard (and stretch of track) was represented here is incredibly disappointing. Even if the track behind the yard wasn't used any trains on this route, it would have still been a great area to explore on foot. …and that absence of that whole section has big consequences of how the AI runoff on the other side looks, as we will get too. But before we get there, there is one area that I want to show you first. S-Bahn line leading away from Hasselbrook One area I did want to show while we around Hamburg is at Hasselbrook and the S-Bahn line leading away north of the station towards Poppenbüttel/Hamburg Airport. This is just something that I wanted to know A: How far you could walk down here and B: want you could see off in the distance at the edge of the invisible walls. The answer to the first question is here on the map... …and the answer to the second question is this... As you can see, this doesn't look all that great, not only is the AI runoff just about visible again, but I also believe there's suppose to be a station here that didn't even get represented, probably because I wasn't deemed to be all that relevant to the route. But this isn't too bad, as firstly, this is once again in an area that I doubt anyone would go near anyways (Although there is collectible located on the spur leading to this point) and secondly, it isn't even used by any service that run on this route at the moment, as we don't have the train that actually uses the S-Bahn section in TSW2 yet (Unless you wanted AI freight running down the freight bypass line). But saying that, I do think you could see this from the big that crosses over the bypass line, if you looked in this direction. Which I don't think is something I think most people would notice when either driving or riding the train, but I let you all decide on that one. Now I think I can hold this now longer, let's go to the worst area in terms of an AI runoff at that is down at Rothenburgsort Yard. Rothenburgsort Yard We come to an area that wasn't present on the TS Classic version of this route, but is present here in TSW2, mainly so that freight service can have a decent place to start/stop, rather than in the yard just east of Wandsbek. Now we have already established that the AI runoffs on this route are not great, so expectations are not that high going into how the tracks leading west away from the yard will look, but you are not going to believe what you're about to see here. So once again look at the image above you and let me ask you this, where is the furthest you can go away from route heading west before you encounter the boundaries of the route? The answer... ...is here, and what can you see looking away from the route? …This! If you could get close to the AI spawn points in the other examples I've showed, you could literally walk right up to it here around Rothenburgsort. I will again reiterate, this is not me modding the game so I can close to here, this is not me exploiting a camera glitch so I can get beyond the boundaries the route, this is just me spawning into this area walking and then walking as far as the limits will allow me in this direction and it just so happened to take me right up to the AI spawn point, and to be honest, out of all of these areas that we have explored here, this is easily the worst looking area of them all. You first have fact that, although there are three tracks leading away in this direction, only one of them actually has an AI runoff, and secondly, the entire area around here looks badly made and unfinished, like as if the inclusion of this whole section down to Rothenburgsort was added late in development (which is kinda true for this entire section down here, but that's something for another time). Even if this area is once again in an area that I doubt many people will visit anyways, the fact you can access this point to begin with and the fact that it looks like this is something I think is quite unacceptable. Even if what I'm about to talk about next is unlikely to happen, at the very least, move the invisible walls further away from here so at least you don't ever get anywhere near this location. Just make sure that there are no collectibles located round here (which I don't think there is from having a look myself). What extra tracks should have been here? So you're probably wandering at this point, what should have this area looked like? What extra tracks should have been placed here in the first place. I haven't showed much of what this are actually looks like in real life yet because I wanted to save that for this part. Because what I have done is made a small labelled map of all the extra tracks that weren't represented that maybe should have been and also were the AI spawn points should have been located. The map in question can be found down below (made using the map that I made for my Hamburg-Hanover suggestion that I did back in January). So as you can see, what I think would be a better way of handling the AI runoffs down in the Hamburg section of the route would be to extend both the tracks from the northern exit of Hamburg Hbf and western exit of Rothenburgsort yard down to where they meet up at around Elbbrücken. This would service as the AI spawnpoint for both freight services going to Rothenburgsort and then on towards Lübeck, and for any AI traffic that's passing through Hamburg Hbf, should any be added to this route in the future. Don't worry though, unlike what we have seen here, the invisible walls would be located far and away from this located, but I would open up some of the limits in order to make sure we got the track connecting the two places directly in, along with the yard at the Hamburg end of the track, which would enable some depot moves at this end of the route (I think they do exist here, but because the yard wasn't represented, they are represented as AI trains spawning into the route). But as much as I feel like this would be a much better way of handling the AI runoffs around here, I don't expect this to ever be implemented as the whole section would have to be ripped up and re-laid from scratch and I feel like that effort would be much better put towards adapting this section as part of a much bigger (and better) Hamburg Hbf route (like a route towards Bremen or Hanover) whereas all this would just be for the sake of handling how trains enter and exit the route down this end, so I guess we are stuck with what we have here, which is kinda of a shame really. But also a perfect metaphor of how Hamburg-Lübeck ended up turning out.
TBH I don't care about HBK, I won't buy it, unless they fix and improve the BR112. But I have a counterpoint to the core point of your post - which is a topic I had in mind for a while but never got round to post here, mainly because I figured it would be a lot of effort for a very unpopular opinion. There should be no boundaries for walking on foot, a text that tells the player "return to the map" which automatically disappears after 40seconds /1minute should be enough. This should be a nice incentive to explore the route on foot, right now the only reason to do it is to get collectables and to get to see more details from closer up, but why is that the player of foot is restricted to basically 50cm/1 meter away from both tracks? The TSW experience should not emulate a magic trick, which tries to hide its inner workings, I am curious to cross the bridge beyond Köln and see the trains spawn there and get to Köln to start a service, I am curious to see how the route "ends" and the more inner workings of the timetable. What if we consider the TSW map a theatrical stage, and roaming on foot the player's way to see what's going on behind the scenes? As long as the players are notified that they are actually not looking at the "represented area" I can't see why everything should be blocked off. I once went trekking on foot on London-Brighton to try and get a cool shot of the bridge near Balcombe, but of course there was no point as I couldn't get a few meters away from the tracks themselves. Also it's cool to see the very basic and caveman like representation of Gatwick, as it's really easy to glitch the camera outside the bounds, same goes for Essen in HRR... There is nothing wrong in having a look at how things actually work within the sim, as long as the player is notified they "shouldn't be looking at that". Perhaps have an option which allows you to get rid of the invisible walls.
First of all, thank you for all of the effort you put into your threads. They’re always a fascinating read. Now, onto the main topic. Unfortunately, I have to say that HBK always felt like a half-finished, not well thought-out route. Starting with the well documented issues like the DoStos and the almost insultingly bad 112, continuing on with a generally lacklustre set of rolling stock, and finishing off with an equally lacklustre Hamburg Hbf. Being realistic, we can probably all agree that your suggested added trackage will never happen but I do like the idea of doing it better in another route. I’ve often been to Hamburg Hbf in real life and have a lot of fond memories of it. It deserves a better portrayal in another route doing it justice - both in terms of represented trackage and AI traffic. It’s an interesting idea you bring up. In a game/simulator like TSW, I don’t really mind having a look at how it works and taking a closer look at things out of bounds (and honestly, you don’t need any tricks or mods to see scenery which didn’t receive much attention). However, such a thing as you propose would absolutely have to come with an on/off toggle in the settings in my opinion. I certainly don’t want to “see things I’m not supposed to see” accidentally even if it does already happen on occasion. If I’m specifically looking for that sort of stuff, then fair enough, an option to get rid of the invisible walls would be nice. As long as I’m playing “normally” though, I expect the game to try its best to maintain my immersion.
