Spirit Of Steam Stream Feedback Thread... And More Importantly...

Conversely I think it would be really positive and show that DTG have faith that this route is going to generate enough sales to warrant additional loco DLCs

 

A fair point, but I still think it would generate a reasonable amount of 'why isn't this included at release?' and I think it could possibly hurt sales in the short term as people will be waiting to find out the 'complete' timetable to buy the route and with a major project like this it's probably hoped that this will be immediate sales win.

 

Just caught up on the stream as I wasn't able to watch it in real time, my feedback:

• I am quite ignorant on steam locomotives and I don't know exactly the shape of each thing, but everything seems like a low-LOD version, as if it didn't properly load, reminds me of IoW right after release before it was fixed. For some reason the locomotive and cab look "wrong" as if they were melted. The textures on the side of the loco seem pixelated as well.
• Same goes for the cars and vehicles around the route - not that they look worse than other route, but being one of the main features at Lime Street's platform and the road being visible from the station itself I was hoping they'd be better.
• Lighting seems off, but Matt mentioned it was a bit brighter on his screen, so I'll see next week
• If you want to get rid of the "jack hammer" effect set the rear most camera as far backwards (away from the train) as it will go, and go to that camera to reset the sounds - it works with the few trains where switching between cab and exterior doesn't work. It will work if the train is long enough
• Particle effects are very good, much better than the first screenshots, the fact it reacts to obstructions really helps with immersion
• Nice to see that distant signals are fixed, that seems a pretty big problem on NTP. I'll remember to avoid that route.
• Outstanding work on the route, things like the abandoned station and generally the ambience of the route seems spot on, can't comment on how accurate it is, but it seems really good - dare I say, the best in TSW?
• Edge hill, again yet another instance of a red signal that clears after you pass the "go via point" I know it's a limitation of the dispatcher. It is still annoying, and I'll continue to point those out, particularly with systems that rely on distant signals.
• Cool to see that some wagons are fitted with brakes and some other aren't - having a working brake van would be cool in the future.
• About fitted/unfitted wagons, I hope each composition on timetable is different (or there are a few different combination) and the amount of fitted/unfitted wagons is present in the sevice description.
• Good that the train turn arounds are represented correctly in Liverpool
• Are the scoring and medals more forgiving, given the lack of speedometer, or were speed limits as "enforced" back then as they are today?
• [OT] Didn't think the pre-order discount had such a massive effect on the total revenue that in this case it would equate to a price increase
• Good to see period looking passengers
• Lime street seems decent, shame for the very basic looking road vehicles.

 

I don’t think anyone is saying that there should have been more than two locos (although Sandpatch & GWE did come with three locos). My point is that as it is there is a trade off between which “laughably inaccurate” route DTG go down, either use the wrong locos and increase the number of services or have a timetable so sparse it’s akin to a NUR strike day. Choosing a different route with prototypically less traffic or loco choice would have gone some way to resolving this issue. Alternatively, as others have suggested, choosing different locos or moving the era to the early 60s when diesel layers could be included using existing models would also have worked.

As I’d say I am a big fan of TSW, these are my personal views, I don’t expect anyone else to agree but it’s certainly not a “failure of realistic comprehension”.

 

Console.

 

This is the difference between Consoles & PC's, quite why they choosed to feature the initial unveiling on a series X is beyond me, especially given the sound issues and LOD constraints.

 

Well, I know that rendering distance and such is shorter, but I've never seen that much difference in terms of locomotive level of detail, as I said, it looks like it hasn't finished loading, it's not like it has 1080p textures instead of 8k ones or something minor like that, literally no other train is like that, so console is, at best, only part of the answer. And if PC is indeed better than that's definitely not a purchase for me, and I hope for more console users because that is not acceptable.

I am aware that consoles have such limitation from what third party aircraft devs say about their work on MSFS, yet I've never seen such appalling LODs and textures on any of them.

 

Now that is a good idea for a quickie DLC they could develop and release in short order: repaint and mod the 08 - more involved than just removing the air brakes, for instance replacing the electric lamps - (or redo the physics and make a couple of tweaks to the WSR 09), together with a shunting timetable, and get it out pronto since they will eventually have to come out of the stand-down but not wait nine months to generate revenue.

 

This whole situation was quite interesting for me to learn. I've not had anything to do with TSW/TSW2 really due to the lack of steam locos but it surprised me that people prefer a route with no stock running on it to a route with stock that isn't 100% prototypical.
Personally I find it far easier to imagine that the 3rd 8F running a local stopper that just passed me in a blink at a closing speed of 120mph was a different class than having to imagine I'm surrounded by imaginary services when in reality I'm driving on an empty route that feels like it's set after a zombie apocalypse.
But it seems the masses disagree

I don't know how much work it would involve but would it be possible to have 2 options for in game timetables: 100% authentic and "fill the gaps with whatever I have"

 

For me, the main contention is that loco DLCs add services. If you give those services to the wrong type of train, there's less incentive to create the correct train (it has less value), and if it does come along, you can't tell the game only to use that type of train on those services.

It might be easier to pull off on a steam route (particularly a GWR one because they all looked the same), but the often quoted example is when they put 375s on services that should've been done with the 465 - two types of train that look, sound and behave nothing alike. Tbh it probably wouldn't be worth it when there's potential to have the correct one made a bit later down the line.

 

I’m guessing there is a parallel here with Run 8, where if you don’t own all the rather extensive collection of cars trains still appear but with the default Run 8 boxcar (or a generic loco) substituting for the missing item. It’s not pretty and a bit incongruous having a R8 liveried boxcar where a hopper or gondola should be, but better than no train at all. Also gives you an incentive to start parting with money to fill in the gaps with the proper stock!

 

It does look good, and sound good too. I do wish that there was a bit more interactivity in regards to firing the locomotive, although that's something that's probably going to be addressed in the next livestream. Steam Loco Express did a good job of simulating the fire, dividing it into squares and having each square have a colour intensity and a coal level. So you literally could pile the fire up in the middle, or around the edges, depending on the locomotive since each class fired different. Of course, doing that *and* driving would be a lot to ask so you'd probably need a simplified version for driving purposes which has already been suggested in this thread and others, but you could in theory have an option where you'd fire a service and the AI would drive it. Obviously MP would be the ultimate dream for that, but that's a pipe-dream for now.
Would also be pretty neat if you could check the oil levels on the motion gear as well, and the sanding levels since in TSW we can walk around the locomotive.
Just imagine you get assigned your locomotive and duty, walk over to it in the yard, the AI fireman is busy getting the fire ready (the locomotive itself is already in a warm state since the cleaners would have fired it up from cold earlier in the day) so you walk around the engine, clicking on the corks on the motion and topping up the oil, checking the sand boxes, maybe even having a look in the smokebox. Then when you're ready you draw out of the shed and coal up and water up, and then at your allocated time, you're off down to the station to couple up to the train.

That would be good stuff, some real PMDG/A2A levels of sim, but probably a bit too much for most TSW folk, of course that's where realism sliders could be used but, well, maybe for TSW3 or 4. We've got some good stuff coming down the line (pun intended) and this does look nice, and hopefully when the editors are released the floodgates will be opened.

 

It's probably very niche, but I'd love this. I'm fully aware that this'll never come to TSW but the idea of doing all the menial maintenance tasks associated with steam is lovely to me.

 

Don't forget that like with all other trains in this sim, about 90% of people who buy it expect to just press a single button on the controller to move, and another to stop.

They don't care about things like oiling the engine before use, topping up the sand boxes, unblocking the sander nozzles and so on,

Some people complain that they have to sit in the cab to drive the train, they want to sit as a passenger or use the fly by cams and watch the train and scenery go by... but still have control of when the train starts and stops.

Some want the 'tonka toy' control overlay from Railworks, the big red lever you drag with the mouse to go and stop.


There are people complaining that having to do things like insert the reverser lever, move it to forwards, turn the brake lockout key, turn the headlights on, maybe raise the pantograph and turn the main breaker on before they can move is far too complicated.

So having to balance regulator with valve cutoff, and steam usage/production is going to be way too much for some.


Of course at the other end of the spectrum are those who understand how the loco's work, and want every switch, lever, button, dial and screen to work and be operational, they love the challenge of operating the train as if it were real whilst trying to keep to the timetable.


But whilst TSW2 can't decide if it's a sim or a game, and tries to cater for everyone, there will always be compromises,

like i dont get why it has to be like a game with collectables, i want to drive the train, not walk the tracks searching for things to earn points and tacky virtual trophies (i bloody hate it when i get the stupid 'congratulations, you have driven this train the same number of kilometers as it's number, have a trophy' thing as i'm driving)

 

On GWE I got an award for placing a poster at West Ealing. The only thing is… At the time I was passing by on the Up Main at 95 MPH which doesn’t even have a platform!

I have heard some of this AP and achievement LOVE is at the insistence of Steam, which is why titles like Run 8 will never go on that distribution platform despite the fact it would simplify their arcane installation procedures!

Oh and incidentally, I have no objection to setting up brake keys or MU26A valves but the game does need to make it clear where these are in the cab, especially in poor lighting and maybe prompt if you forgot to do it.

 

Common misconception: Console players = people who are not into simulation, who don't understand anything and just want a GTA style game. It's fine to play that game, tho. But the platform you're playing doesn't equal your simulation depth.

Says who? Who are "they"? And it's fine to not care about that. As same as it's fine to do care about that.

Have you seen some youtubers who try to play TSW for the first time and totally fail to understand how to even move an inch? That's because it is complicated. And at least the tutorials should be better to make it easier for people to get into this.

Only for those, who don't have the time or don't want to invest that much time into learning a game. That's fine.

No. It's not up to DTG to decide what TSW is. That's a big misunderstanding. It's the player who decides that.

Don't care about trophies? Fine, ignore them
Don't care about mastery? Fine, ignore it.
Don't care about collectables? Fine, ignore them.
(...)

But if you do care about the gameification parts, then it's a big strength of TSW2, that people who care about gaming as well as people who care about simulation can fine their comfortable spots in TSW2. Yes, this means compromises. But that doesn't make the overall experience (at least for me, who is more into simulation) that much worse, that it could not be justified with this approach.

You don't have to get it or even like it. Just drive your train, you'll have zero disadvantage from not getting that collectble. And zero disadvantage if someone else collects them

 

Theoretically, I would say it’s quite simple to cater for everyone, just have an option in settings for it, Beginner (on by default), Pro, Expert. The thing is DTG by default are trying to make it cater for everyone which I would say is not going to well.

Beginner will make it super easy, just start a service and when loaded everything is ready to go, just pull the throttle and be off. Pro, pretty much how it is now I would guess. Expert could then be as close to realistic as possible, so in SOS that would include oiling and all that fun jazz associated with steam locomotives.

I for one would be interested in an expert mode, I want a simulator, not a game.

Just my two cents on that topic.

 

I agree that there needs to be a setting between ‘beginner’ and ‘pro’ gameplay, instead of DTG trying to choose for us by cramming in everything in, whilst ironically missing out features because it’s ‘too hard/complex’ for some players.

 

I have never understood the TSW approach to complexity. We get tutorials for Cathcart that emphasise pressing pantograph raise & auxiliaries set and then no service ever requires it and it isn't mentioned again. We have US freight that needs very specific brake system setting with often well hidden valves that get no prompts. I've seen at least one youtube stream by an actual engineer remarking about why something to do with the brakes wasn't set because 'that would never be left like that'. We get West Cornwall where every freight service automatically selects the wrong brake mode setting every time you couple/uncouple overriding any correct setting made by the player.

I can only see this becoming even more of an issue as TSW gets into the complexities of steam. Euro & American Truck Simulator come to mind as a shining example of how to handle this. Just make it a setting or an option in the menu. For example I can select gearbox to Simple Auto / Real Auto / Manual and never get caught out again. I can set manual or automatic retarder or engine braking and it just make the experience so much more enjoyable regardless of desired skill level.

I'd love to see menu settings for how to set up the trains along the lines of Real World No Hints / Real World with Onscreen Hints / All Set-up Ready to Roll. Could even apply to Safety Systems on or off because setting them every time just becomes a pain.

 

That's exactly it, it's called Train Sim World.. not Train Game World.
i too want a simulator and not a game.


I do ignore the 'collectables' but it's annoying when i am happily driving along and get a big pop up blocking half the screen saying 'well done, you've just driven 422 kms in the BR422... here have a picture of a trophy'

If it's a steam requirement, then the epic gamestore version shouldn't have the trophy thing?
Tho i remember steam made DTG dumb down some DLC's in TSC big time... what were supposed to be an expert line trains had all the 'expert' bits removed to allow the 'stop go' controls to work.




if we could get an API giving us access to the data like we have in TSC, then we could turn all the on screen stuff off and drive the train using a working EBuLa [electronic timetable screen]
or the various versions of it in other modern trains from around the world, even picture of a clipboard with the stop sheet on it,

You could drive steam trains with a set of gauges on a 2nd monitor / tablet so you can look out the window watching for signals, and a quick glance over can see what's going on with the engine (could even have the fireman's controls on a tablet, and a friend can take care of adding coal and water whilst you drive)

 

Given you can refuel the locos, it would be interesting to know whether the coal in the tender reduces visibly as it gets used, so you can just look at the tender and see whether you need to add more or not. They can display variable amounts in wagons so hopefully this can be done for the tenders.

 

I too think DTG should show their hand that a loco dlc is confirmed (providing the type or not) to help concerns people have about a quiet route. I’m less inclined to buy thinking it might be a two loco, never added to route

 

I agree, I have stumped up for something for my N guage layout based on this not being a day one for me. I can't see me getting enough out of it to warrant day one. Maybe the 8F stream will show otherwise. I'm beginning to wish that busy locations were not modelled as they are badly empty when left without A.I. Will wait on more DLC and would be nice if as said a hand could be shown as to what else m ay be on offer...

 

Ha , good luck with starting in the shed at 4:00 with the grease can to do tasks for the 5:30 train.

Im happy if they implement most valves. the tsc jinty has even a working lubricator and you can smash the cylinders when compressing the condensed water inside the cocks.

So im "expecting" a step up with tsw for a true immersion.

 

Then you've heard wrong, I do think Xbox or PlayStation do that, but not Steam. I own the original Half Life on steam, which is a game owned by the same company that operates steam, and that lacks achievements. And there's plenty of Steam games out there which don't use those features, Out of the games I own the IL-2 series are the main ones I can think of which lack achievements. As for scoring that's not been standard in games since the 90's, and frankly many people didn't even care about the score counter even during the latter half of the 80's. Adding scoring is almost certainly a conscious choice by DTG, not something they were forced into implementing.

 

I can't see this being anymore than a arcade train game. I mean I cannot think of any sort of way this will be challenging when everything practically appears automated and knowing DTG, they will be testing a manual fireman for 5 years + until somebody in the preservation crew "take a look at it". I mean why even have all the signals on this route when there's barely any services/AI on the route to even test you, it's being overhyped and you will be disappointed.

It's just another shoddy joke, judging from the simple use of the brake and the regulator and continuous safety valve operation. TSC has a very good simulation method, especially using the Jinty on WLoS for example...

 

Really?

 

"Ha , good luck with starting in the shed at 4:00 with the grease can to do tasks for the 5:30 train."

Ahem...if you really want to do the full realism thing from fire up - more like 1.30am with a Jubilee, so your Crewe - Liverpool Lime St session would last around 6 hours - with the Save function as it is now!!

This is the problem with all loco realism - if you want to do a realistic cold start on an AC4400CW, it will take an hour or so. And we already know the issues on realistic brake release on a Sherman Hill consist.

 

Is there anything to be gained by pre-ordering?

 

Absolutely, you’ve paid DTG the same amount early.

 

I mean, IIRC the actual driver and fireman wouldn't do the full fire from cold though, that would be down to the shed staff, so when the rostered crew clocked on, the fire was already going and the steam building up.

 

Yes.. Regulator, Reverser, Brake, Ejector, Blower, & perhaps Damper (?) What else is there that we can do?

It's only like doing LZB, SIFA and controlling an Electric train in Germany tbh..

Just been confirmed on tonight's stream not being implemented and I'm not hopeful it will be added at all.

 

After watching tonight's stream, I can safely say that it looks significantly better compared to the last one.

Can we please make sure that these streams, at least the very first ones, are shown on PC? As they have much better graphical details, as well as being able to show everything in its full glory.

 

Agree that tonight looked visually substantially better. Adhesion physics / wheelslip look great, all the running gear is brilliant, enjoyed the fireman animations even if they're not 100% there yet.

The only remaining negatives for me are the lack of a delay while the steam chest fills and Crewe being totally devoid of traffic at midday but I won't bang on about loco DLC again.

I'm looking forward to playing this time next week!

 

I enjoyed tonight's live show as we saw more of the driving actions. I liked the finale with Jamie: going up that gradient ; it made me really want to because it is complicated.

At the beginning, I wasn't keen on going to Spirit of Steam but now I'm considering buying it as it's a new driving experience for me (I never bought anything on the steam on TSC).

 

What else is there that a real driver does?

 

I know they have said there will be no layering with other routes but do we know if we will at least have the ability to substitute steam into services on the WSR?

 

Believe me I understand there is not much more a driver would do, I want to know if the simulation of these are effective in the loco/s.

Happy for you to reflect on the stream and tell me otherwise

 

Very excited about the arrival of steam on a 50s route but did I hear Matt say there was no rail joint sound? I hope I got the wrong end of the stick, it won't be be very immersive without the clickety clack.

 

It sounds as though another previous piece of tech has become lost from the TSW toolkit from trying to understand Matt’s expression on stream.

 

Nice explanation and good to know its being looked into and is a known problem. I agree the sounds add a nice detail to routes. I hope when it is fixed it can be applied here but understand it may be difficult, if even possible. Relaying all the track would be a problem eh :P

General Feedback from Stream #2
I really enjoyed this second stream, and the power of the PC shows the route better in all its glory. Some nice little details here and there including the water physics, fireman animations, challenge of driving, sounds, particles. I agree with the safety valves being abit difficult to control with the firing limitations but suspect this is something which will improve with time, tweaking and firing additions.
I agree some of the stations feel abit quite at the moment but again that cant be helped with the limited loco's and timetable. I hope we get some plans for additional loco's oneday. (4MTT/Jinty plz :P)

Things can only improve with time but the team has done an Amazing job in introducing the first steam engines into TSW and I cant wait to get my hands on it and see what the future of steam in TSW brings!

 

Wheel slip sparks looking good

 

The route looks really nice, i preordered this one.

Still strange they missed the joint sounds with an ongoing thread (200+ replies) about improving sounds, mostly because of the lack of track sounds latley. Interessting that thread gets ignored by dtg since it has opend.

In the end good to know they made sound recordings for the steam engines.

 

There's elements of this that look beautiful and I think there's some amazing work done

Crewe station at 13:00pm with next to no passengers in sight???? Painful watching Jamie run round a ghost town. What is going on. It felt like standard features have been dialled right back in. I know Matt said the passenger numbers were representative of time, I don't think Crewe was built for about 8'people

I'm so torn right now watching the last hour of steam but I'm airing towards wanting to experience the scenarios and service with all the features of other routes rather than an empty train set feeling at release . Man, what to do....

 

Better be careful with your head. Other actions sound OK to me.

 

Tangent...... I'd love the donkey list to be released (not as a paid gameplay pack though please)

 

Having seen the stream, I really like what I have seen. I think I will not miss the manual firing part a lot, you can do a lot more if you want.

Overall my feeling is that the choice for the route is not the smartest one. Building those three vast yards must have cost a lot of money, apart from the performance issues on consoles it causes (not 100% sure how much is because of the yards or other scenery details). And the not using them is just wasting our money. Maybe some one should have a stronger opposition against the over ambitious management.

Why not chose Falmouth branch or apart of the tees and Weardale network, one of the best TS routes at the edge of steam and diesel? With Derek Siddle, DTG has an expert in the house. I really do not understand some of the decision. And if you want to be ambitious, why not do a a Dutch steam route?