Spirit Of Steam Post Release Feedback. The Definitive Thread

Simply put, if you get a distant signal showing caution, then slow down - expect ANY stop signal to show stop - until the next distant signal. It's a little more clear cut in real life as the signaller will hold all stop signals at danger if the distant is showing caution and clear each of them (If possible) as you approach.

 

I see. The signals ("modern style" signals) were all green before encoutering the red semaphore. I retried a third time by going slower and I saw the red semaphore turn green from afar. The correct signalling sequence would have been to display at least one yellow signal before the red semaphore, am I wrong ?

On another topic : I just completed a run from Liverpool to Crewe, and I got stuck on the fireman's side of the locomotive while walking inside the cab ! There was no way to go back to the driver's seat. Here is a video : https://drive.google.com/file/d/18GpYzRpjsKX8Lwm6QCdY9w_jOJm35mDe/view?usp=sharing - this needs to be fixed.

The speed HUD did not show up anymore so I decided to let it run at max power. After arrving at Crewe I saw that I did exceed 100 MPH, which is a little too fast, but at least I beat the AI schedule at Crewe

Edit : video now available to watch

 

Any green on to a red would be regarded as a wrong side failure, whether it’s the last colour light in the sequence or a colour light distant. It would be unlikely to get a “MAS” colour light straight onto a semaphore stop signal, you would always get a distant signal whether semaphore, colour light or fixed sign before the home signal.

 

So it's definitely a bug On the first run I didn't understand why I passed a signal at danger, on the second run I was being careful for yellow signals but still got a SPAD, the third was all right.

 

No.

 

Was surprised to see the smoke from the 8F traverse the tunnel roof between Edge Hill and Wavertree (on the avoiding line). DTG said the smoke should not pass through solid objects yet here we are:

 

My timetable for Spirit of Steam has been updated. Download link in sig.

 

After the topic about joint sounds in Doomotrons thread, i did a test about that. The interessting thing is some people dont seem to hear them and some do. Maybe a difference between consoles and pc?

Well i made the test on my platform the pc --> Result is i can hear all flange & joint sounds from the 8F, Jubilee and also all coaches and wagons.

The only down for me is the A.I engine sound currently, especially at low speed and accelerating. The running & track sounds are well, but there doesnt seem to be any steam related sounds. "no chuffs", no open cylinder coeck valve etc, just a siltent go. What i discovered is, the tsw a.i for all routes and locos seems to accelerate a bit before reaching a stopping point. Here the steam engine a.i sound works actually well.

I think dtg is aware and i hope they can improve that.

 

Yes it happens in several places. Collision detection is clearly not finished - like just about everything else in this DLC.

 

I don't hear joint sounds but I don't use headphones so that detail may be lost. However, when Cathcart came out I thought the 314 sounded great and the motors very audible even when the windows were shut, but most people thought they were completely silent and were quite surprised when I posted videos of what I heard, both on phone and through screen recording software.

 

I have no idea if it means anything but I've played probably 15-20 services now of all types on PC and never had a derailment either, or any rogue SPADs.

 

I think the rogue SPADs are basically random. I've also not had any problems with derailment.

 

I am in the same boat as mattwild55 - I have played about 15 or so services and scenarios and have yet had a derailment and have had only one SPAD on starting a service - so like Clumsy Pacer stated - those maybe relatively random since I restarted the service and was able to complete it with no problem.

Like all others - i have to release the vacuum on the fitted wagons that are not correctly connected to the locomotive, but are sandwiched between unfitted stock. Sound wise - I have noticed what I think are joint sounds when riding in the Brake van - but do they do not appear present when in the cab and I question how loud they would be when at speed when on the footplate of a steam engine. Since I never have had that privilege of driving a real steam locomotive, at speed or otherwise, I will leave that discussion to more experienced personnel.

That being said, I have worked around large boilers on steam ships and industrial plants and know with certainty - they are not quiet with blowers, feedwater pumps and roar of the firebox and other associated auxiliary equipment running, As a teenager - I worked at a plant farm where we had an old locomotive boiler that was gas feed we used to sterilize the dirt we used before making our potting soil and when it was going, it was pretty loud.

 

In TSC with the locomotive coasting you can certainly hear track sounds. Even under power, on the Kyle Line with the Black Five there is a distinct flange squeal going round curves too. And you should certainly be able to hear that distinctive hollow ringing sound that B1 bogie fitted Mark One coaches make going over track joints, both outside and inside the train.

 

Bonus points for putting there being flecks of toilet paper underneath the Mk1s though!

 

I haven't had a problem derailing either. I do notice that if I look down instead of forward, the engine pulses are faster, because UE is playing catch-up on my older rig. You can get some really crazy physics in any game engine if your CPU starts lagging. I don't know how they've configured their physics clock, but here's an excerpt from UE documentation:

Bottom line is you probably need a decent rig for everything to run as was intended. I think performance is also having an effect on how the sim inputs are behaving for me.

 

Speaking of the flange squeal - does anyone else think it sounds like the brakes are applied?

 

I decided to play for a week or so to let everything sink in and try to provide a bit of rounded feedback rather than anything knee-jerk. There’s quite a bit to unpack here so here it goes:


The route itself is really well modelled and suitably atmospheric in places. Lighting is good as is night lighting, although it still suffers a bit from the late twilight period where everything becomes extremely dark before the moonlighting starts having an effect (every route has this). Particular highlights are Lime Street, the view north from Runcorn and Crewe.

The locos are similarly excellent from a visual perspective, and the smoke effects are actually pretty good in the end. The only thing I’d say is that when the firing update comes, please add some effects for the water injectors and some steam leakage wouldn’t go amiss. Also think that having some varied levels of weathering would be a good addition.

The physics seems pretty good for the most part, although it’s notable that it’s difficult to get above around 45mph with a loaded 8F as the wheels start slipping. I’m not sure if this is prototypical but I’d suspect not. The same bug(?) affects the Jubilee towards 85mph although to a lesser extent.

I’ve got some concerns both over the boiler pressure and brake vacuum, both of which appear to be very sensitive to change. The boiler pressure drops off markedly faster than in TSC (and I believe in reality) and also climbs back up afterward very quickly, making it a constant struggle to avoid blowing off the safeties. I think generally there needs to be quite a bit more lag/inertia in the change of boiler pressure.

The sensation of speed and being thrown around is fantastic – very similar to my experience of driving a steam locomotive (only for half an hour or so). The footplate ride can be extremely rough in reality and this is reflected in the game. For me, the extra immersion here is by itself worth the change from TSC.


I’d note at this point that I am definitely having fun with this route, so please bear in mind when I mention the following which is by far the weakest point of the route so far: the timetable.

There are numerous, to my mind quite serious drawbacks that could have been avoided even without adding more loco DLC (which I’ll come on to):

- The blood and custard coaches don’t turn up at all in service mode – some sort of bug with the substitution system?

- Only the departure times are modelled based on the real-life timetable. Using automatic timings makes almost every passenger service impossible to stick to time. I don’t understand why these have been used again after L2B used the real-life timings (and that had 12x the amount of playable services).

- I for instance checked the 17:36 departure from Acton Bridge on Timetable World – the game expects you to be at Hartford by 17:39 whereas the real-life timetable allowed until 17:42. Not only this but it’s wrongly marked in the service name – this service started from Warrington Bank Quay, not Blackpool.

- There don’t appear to be ANY AI services modelled which aren’t drivable – the Crewe – Carlisle route was far busier in reality. This really restricts the potential for railfanning as you’ll frequently be waiting for half an hour or more for services to pass you – whereas again checking the real timetable, trains were leaving Crewe every 10 minutes or so for the whole day, plus other movements which I’ve mentioned below.

- The only services that are modelled are fairly straightforward A to B services that you might see on any other route, whereas the steam era would have featured loco changeovers among others (particularly at Crewe on the WCML services). As it stands, there is a single service that starts or ends at Crewe North shed – how can that be right for one of the busiest passenger locomotive sheds in the country at that time?

- The 8F AI services run at line speed, which is far too fast for most freight operations (from memory they should be restricted to 35/45mph depending on type)

- The 8Fs also (with the exception of those running southbound and out of the south portal at Crewe) seem to just drive a rake of wagons from one yard to another and then spend the entire day just sitting there attached to said rake without returning to the shed or going off to perform another service, which just looks bizarre.

- Finally, I think this is already known, but the placement of mineral wagons before vacuum braked stock in a rake isn’t prototypical as far as I’m aware (and hence has caused problems with needing to destroy the vacuum in those wagons before starting – although at least we can see that the braking system is well modelled!).

- AI services don’t appear to make any noise at all – they simply move off, which is quite jarring to the sense of immersion.


Then of course beyond this there is the question of local services which are significantly missing due to the lack of appropriate motive power. This is fine, in the sense that I’d rather have them missing than have a Jubilee pulling a rake of 3 carriages, but again it really begs the question of whether this was the right loco selection to launch with (a Black Five instead of the 8F or Jubilee may have partially solved this problem). I can only hope that some loco DLC is announced in the roadmap later today to substantially flesh the route out.

To sum up – steam is exciting and new and has a LOT of potential, but it’s very rough around the edges at the moment. The timetable omissions and errors are a particular grievance given that a lot of the aforementioned issues are nothing to do with the new steam physics etc – just needed more time spent on it, which is a shame for an otherwise beautiful route populated with beautiful locomotives.

I'm happy with my decision to pre-order to support DTG and development, but I very much hope that there are a few more DLCs coming (and a timetable review) to flesh this otherwise excellent route out.

 

Just to add a comment about night lighting, signal boxes and station buildings could really do with lighting up, it seems unnatural that they be completely dark.

 

The Black Five instead of the 8F would probably have been preferabe and was a true mixed traffic locomotive. You would have got complaints it looks to similar to the Jubilee, as does the 8F, but the wheels look different on the 8F! We really could do without seeing mark 1 carriages on local services, however I fear that is what we will get.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said and hopefully many of these points will be addressed. The almost silent AI was my main issue.

I think in several years when (hopefully) many more steam routes have been produced it might make me give up on TSC. As you say the experience on being in the cab with it bucking around and the feeling of speed is something you don't get on TSC and also on TSC you don't get a timetable mode which is a real advantage. But it is only an advantage if it can be made realistic and lifelike. If this route existed on TSC you could make it as busy as you wanted and represent all the services which ran on the line. Scenario planner on TSW, as far as I am concerned is a paltry offering compared to what you can do on TSC, even if it throws its toys out of the pram sometimes. The problem with timetable mode is that it is restricted to what DTG allow to be used on that timetable and their interpretation of what is realistic, and frankly, I am finding with most of the period add-ons for TSW it doesn't match what I consider realistic.

This add-on does have so much potential but as you alude to, it needs much fine tuning.

 

I just tried this route and yeah can get the same problem.

I free camera’d my way down the block and the 3 colour light nearest Ditton is red at the start but it goes green quite early, but the semaphore before Ditton itself doesn’t change and stays at danger.

As it happens there is no yellow semaphore post between these stations and I didn’t look to find the semaphore before Runcorn in case that was at warning.

Anyway yeah it doesn’t look right to me but I noticed that if you drive well below the speed limit the train blocking the platform moves on so there’s no SPAD so I guess it depends if you hit this problem by how you drive it.

But then again, maybe in this era the drivers were aware of possible red home signals and slowed up well before stations too - I don’t know enough about that to comment.

 

I’ve found using the external cameras to be nauseating because they wobble around with the swaying of the train. This has always been a minor issue on all trains with the boom camera (2 camera) but I have never seen the issue with the moveable external camera (3 camera). There is a pronounced and quick side to side shifting of the scenery with the 3 camera on the steam locos that is hard to watch and all movements are exaggerated the further away from train you place the camera. I don’t think these external cameras should wobble at all in my opinion so I would like to see if DTG can work on this because it is quite a big issue on this route because steam locos do bounce around a lot.

 

Oh, one of the other things I noticed - there's no delay between opening the regulator and power being applied, whereas there should definitely be at least a short delay while the steam builds up pressure in the cylinders (this was very noticeable on the locomotive I drove in real-life and it's simulated in most of the TSC Pro add-ons). I think it's even referred to by Matt's voiceover in the 8F tutorial so it could be a bug and the original intention was to have that delay.

IMO it should certainly be patched it as it gives the additional impression of 'heft' and weight to the way the locomotive drives.

 

The flange squeal isn't perfect but I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of brake squeal when stopping.

 

I think boiler pressure isnt modeled final. You can run endless without shoveling coal. Dampers give you either a slow or high steam rate, same for blower. So with regulator in 0 the safety valve goes off anyway. They need to implement this correct, so better from dtg to take time and do it properly.

The vacuum brake is modeled good. Obviously on loco only its quick. But the longer the train, the more time it takes. Also the pressure gauge on the engine reacts quite quick, while the true vacuum behind in the train takes longer for creating and destroying.
Seems pretty realistic to me. Maybe paul can share something to that topic, he works as volunteer on a heritage steam railway.

The flange sounds seem also to be very good. They can be louder than actual braking sounds.

Post edit: when it comes to breaks i think dtg did a great job on the routes for all countries. The physic are definetly there. The longer the train, the more time it takes to charge the pipe or create a vacuum.

 

Well - as you say later in your post - a loaded 8F shouldn't be doing over 45.

 

My understanding of that limit though is that it is what was determined as a maximum safe running speed, rather than a physical limitation of the locomotive. I'm not sure the wheelslip is realistic (it's not gamebreaking for the reasons you allude to but it would be nice to have it amended in a later physics update).

 

Ok so the issue can be reproduced. That's good to know. Yeah as you say if you go slower you do not get the SPAD, but then it's difficult to make it in time. But I was surprised to see a schedule where you can actually arrive early without too much effort, this can be explained by this red signal that the AI simulation also takes into account.

 

sorry been a busy weekend thanks very much I’ll have a go later

 

1282590_20220608195915_1 by BlackSkyuk posted Jun 8, 2022 at 8:19 PM

Wanted to see how fast I could get the Jubilee to run. Once you get above 143mph the game can't cope and goes over the top.

 

Definitely not steam loco physics. Maybe they based the Simugraph input on Doc Brown's loco time machine conversion at the end of Back To The Future 3...

Seriously I would expect a Jub to top out at maybe 105 MPH, with a bit of downhill assistance, anything faster under power would rapidly destroy the fire and boiler not to mention catastrophic mechanical damage, something they sometimes forget to mention following Mallard's record breaking run (which was only 126 MPH). Sorry just further evidence what a joke SoS is.

 

I would guess that speed limit rule was always broken to meet deadlines. I drove 61 mph to work and back today past several of our fine law enforcement and got passed by a bunch of folks. 10 mph over back then and no speedo...hmm Speaking of speedometers and simulated wheelspin from wheel to rail mesh collision calculation errors, I think it's good after a few runs to shut the HUD off.

Pilots love to stare at an EGT split in cylinders when it's best to yank the wires out and fly the plane! I noticed the same too though. It erodes at the heart.

 

Something weird seems to happen with the steam chest pressure at high speeds. If you close the regulator on the 8f (not tried the Jubilee) the steam chest pressure doesn't drop and you seem to get infinite free acceleration, i.e. the loco behaves as if the regulator is open and the steam chest holds pressure. The only way to coast is to open the cylinder cocks which then allows the steam chest pressure to very slowly reach zero. I'm not sure of the transition speed where this seems to happen but at low speeds when you close the regulator the steam chest behaves as you would expect, the pressure decays as the loco use the steam.

 

I was already a huge fan of TSW2, but after Spirit of Steam, I am an entire air conditioner.

That said, and taking into account that I already had my steam drive this morning with the new track joint sounds I am somewhat aprehensive about track sounds at points and switches. What is the overall opinion of you guys regarding theses?

 

I've just used the scenario editor and put an AI train down at Winsford heading to Lime St, and set it so it departs just before I arrive at the previous signal box - to test what happens with a 3 minute headway.

I notice two things

1. Either the brakes aren't strong enough, or the distant signals on the fast line do not give near enough braking distance, but you cannot stop at the first home signal in time unless you are doing 60mph or less.

Note I've only tested Northbound - but Winsford has only 800m braking distance with 90mph linespeed, Hartford is just as bad, and Runcorn, due to the 0.9% downhill grade is quite impossible at line speed. Can DTG be sure they put the distant signals on the Crewe- Weaver Jn section far enough from the first home signals? If they are correctly spaced is the Mk1 braking rate correct? I found I had to be doing <60mph in order to stop in time.

The HUD doesn't help here as it doesn't show yellow on SoS for some reason, so you can't brake until you physically see a yellow distant.

2. Between Runcorn and Ditton, there is a 2 aspect colour light distant followed by a 3 aspect colour light, followed by the first home signal (3 way semaphore junction signal) These colour lights are both showing green when the home signal is at danger/diversionary route. Can these be checked that they are actually 'talking' to the semaphore? Again approaching Speke on the Down Goods/Slow the same problem.

 

TSW doesn't model mechanical failure. Steam locos were speed limited because past a certain point they would pound themselves to pieces- or explode. But none of those limiting factors are present in the game.

If DTG were to start adding mechanical failures, they would I think best direct their efforts to coupler failure and brake fade, which are real-life everyday concerns, not a way-past-the-operating-envelope concern.

 

It's a shame that there are some signalling issues here Bescot, it's one of the main things that immediately decrease the immersion for me.
I normally buy all UK routes, but for some reason I've held off on this one, maybe in the sale I will purchase.

I'm just hoping for the next UK release they nail the signalling and we get proper approach control etc. Hopefully even some TPWS/OSS.

 

Steam trains are some of the fastest in TSW 2!

I've got up to over 550 miles per hour on ska. There seems to be a problem with acceleration which means you can get over the Jubilee's top speed of 75 mph and once you get to 115 mph, acceleration rapidly increases.

Obviously hard to get to this speed but especially on the section from Crewe to Weaver junction it is possible to go well over the max speed of the 6P

 

Hi Fakenham, signal buddy, lol.

I held off buying this one too, until today's patch. It's good though that the distant signals remain on until the whole station limit is clear.

The biggest let down is the lack of steam chuffs on AI. It would be good if smoke lingered for much longer too. It vanishes almost straight away..Aside from that, and the handful of signalling bugs I mention, I like the route and trains a lot. Lots of character, but just wish there was more to do - trip workings to make use of the slow lines and sidings and the addition of AI only services on the WCML part towards Birmingham and those that go north via Warrington. I was hoping to do some scenarios but there are no slow line paths on the west coast section.

 

I keep trying to dip back into this but the sparsely of the route makes me realise I have no friends. I think this will be a pick it up again when it’s a little les “28 days later”

 

Yes I have found the same. I had a run on it to check out the update yesterday, it was good to hear the track joint sounds, but it does feel much too quiet. I know DTG have said there is no DLC in development for it at the moment but I hope they don't sit on their hands for too long. They have an opportunity with this route to create something quite special, a bustling steam period route with many different types of operations, I hope they have the desire to do so.

 

Indeed. It would also be good if this project became the prototype for extending the actual route too, maybe from Crewe towards Chester or Preston or at the Mersey end down to Chester or across to Manchester. However I fear it will become just another standalone route, semi abandoned after a few months just like most of the other titles, maybe a brief visit to the limbo of the Preservation Crew, but nothing more. Which would be a shame as this represents a chance to do something a bit special.

 

Hi all - I had a wander around this station and perhaps we need a little more clothing variety. All these blue suits is like a conservative party conference. I count 12 in this picture dressed the same pretty much

 

I've already found myself going back to the German DLC because there's so much more in the way of variety and number of services.

I'm not oblivious to the difficulties involved given that UK DLC spans at least three general eras whereas DE is just the one at the moment, (along with the different UK operators) but it really highlights how important it is that the routes and locos chosen are considered from a layering perspective from the start for British content.

L2B works because of Joe's excellent work on the timetable (although it is still in dire need of a 700), SEHS, TVL and ECW only really work because loco DLC was produced for them (and even there, we really need the Victoria - Eastbourne services adding to the latter timetable to bulk it out a bit).

Future steam content should be really carefully considered in this manner - as such I'd hope that widely used locos are on the roadmap before the more niche content (Black Five, BR Standards would be my suggestion) and DTG should not be afraid of lightly adjusting some of the existing heritage diesel content to bulk out the roster variety too (eg. Class 33 on Southern steam routes, Class 52 on the Western Region, Class 40 / 101 more generally where appropriate - you get the gist).

 

Yes I agree, certainly the Stanier black 5 and the Jinty would be my first choices. Ivatt Moguls (Flying Pigs) would also be useful as would the Stanier Crabs, both types. It would be great to see some BR standards, not sure how often Britannias were used on services to Liverpool, certainly standard 4mt and 5mt would be great to see.

There were plenty of former pre-grouping LNWR, L & Y and Midland railway types still plying their trade into the 1960's so there is plety of scope for some real steam veterans which would add something quite different to the driving experience.

 

Yes we really need more clothing variety,
I wonder if it could be possible to have a randomiser that can change the shades of the clothing colours.

So whilst you only have so many clothing styles in the game, you could have a platform full of people wearing suits or the same style dress, but each one could be a slightly different shade of 'suitable colours' i.e. reds, yellows, greens, blues, greys, blacks etc... but not going into the neon colours (unless it's for 1990's shell suits)

 

In layman’s terms please?

 

That's not what's happening though. It's CL green followed by red.

And to the WCML fast line braking distance quandary: What's wrong here then, if we have 800 yds to 0.8 mile from distant to outer home at 90mph?