Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

I'll be honest its making me wonder. I was comparing a 3070 to a 2080ti last night trying to fathom it. I don't want a game that looks inferior to my current one and I am a bit of (no idea why) 60fps snob.

I'm wondering what sacrifice is needed.

 

This is what's bothering me about getting TSW3. If the only big change is those features, I would've thought that could've been done in a core update and perhaps renaming TSW2. I don't seem to understand why an entirely new title was needed. Perhaps something they'll cover in the stream tomorrow or in an article

 

I don't know why but I get the feeling that the first DLC for TSW3 will be a UK route.

 

I was expecting more after the build up especially from the UK route. However the lighting improvements are welcome and the weather I guess, although dynamic whether isn't something I have really worried about. The new UI will also be welcomed I wish they would do something with the awful one in TSC.

To say it is an insult though is very much over the top, it is a hobby at the end of the day, if it caused me that much grief I would find a different hobby.

 

I’ll be buying the deluxe version of TSW 3 on PS5, pre-ordered to get the 10% discount. I don’t own Spirit of Steam but I do own SEHS. I have zero problem paying the asking price. This is because I’ll be getting three routes I do not own, I’ll also be getting a considerable expansion of SEHS (which also sees additional improvements) and all the good stuff TSW 3 is bringing. Routes usually cost £24.99, so the three routes I don’t own would cost me over £70 if I were to buy them separately (without discount).

It might come as a shock to some people, but TSW 3 cost money to make. DTG is a business to make money. You are NOT entitled to any compensation or further discount just because you bought TSW 2. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it - the choice is yours, but to suggest DTG is some money scabbing entity because it dares to charge you money for a NEW product is quite frankly outrageous.

 

Very little in it from the benchmarks...
3080 is a different matter

 

If those features have taken considerable time to develop alongside moving the loco DLC out to training centre etc etc then that would justify the cost, alongside the two new routes and reworking of SEHS and whatever they've done to SoS

 

Yeah that was my thoughts. I know the 3080 is 33% quicker. What's not clear is what is "recommended spec"

Normal setting at 30fps
Normal setting at 60fps
High at 30
High at 60 etc etc.

I guess time will tell. It will be interesting to see if it supports DLSS

 

Yeah, I imagine it would be a pain to have four or five specs listed though... My old rig (6 year old CPU, middle of the road GPU) ran just under 30fps on most routes... Upgrading CPU should hopefully cure some of that maybe above 30! (running high settings on everything)

 

I found that in other games while DLSS is good for performance etc, it doesn't make your screenshots look any good as they come out low quality (I noticed this in Farming Sim 22 and No Man's Sky)

 

let's be honest dtg is probably being run by EA cause there is little difference between the two. While i think it's ridiculous for there to be a new game i do understand that it does cost money to make all the so-called new features (which should of come with the game when it first came out) .what would have been better is another season ticket style thing much like last year. I also think as they are going ahead with TSW3 they should give existing TSW2 owners a discount as they are again having to pay for the same game again, much like when tsw1 owners got a discount when tsw2 first came out.

 

For UK buyers, you can currently buy a £50 PSN top-up for £43.95 (12% discount) at ShopTo.net

That on top of the 10% pre-order discount for the deluxe version makes the deal even better value.

 

Isn't it a bit contradictory that we all say DTG is a company and is there to make money and then they say we should wait for discounts to buy?

If the policy is to discount soon after launch and the company itself recommends that we wait to buy cheaper, many of us will stop buying at full price, which will mean less money for DTG.

Or am I missing something here?

 

TSW 2 players are not paying for the same game again. TSW 3 is a new game.

 

Yes, you're missing something

If YOU want something day one and you're willing to note that something may be buggy etc etc then you get to pay full price for the privilege of doing so (yes, everything should work yada yada, it doesn't). If you want the route / loco but don't want to pay full price then wait for the sales.

Either way DTG will get a boost of cash immediately, then another when the sales hit.

It's not much different from hardback / paperback in books. People who can afford a book and want it NOW can pay more to get it. Those who want to pay less or can wait, will pay a bit less later. Either way, money is made

 

Yes it is, all TSW 3 is a more polished version of TSW 2. Much like how TSW 2 was a polished version of TSW 2020. They are also all running the same engine. what makes it worse is that TSW 2 and TSW 3 are running the same update of unreal.

 

it's likely Sam's discreet way of saying if you dont want to pay full price, stop moaning and wait for a sale.

 

The CEO of DTG used to be at EA from what I understand

Five years ago UE4.26 didn't exist, so the feature set they're bringing out couldn't exist...

That was for DLC. The comparrison would be between TSW2020 and TSW2, which was the same as this transition will be. RH was only a DLC bundle (even though the core game update came out just before RH was released)

It's the same game in the same way that MSFS is the same as flight sim 95. Both by the same company on the same platform, but different capabilities overall. I guess TSW3 and TSW2 are on the same ENGINE, but other than that.

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree. If you can’t see it’s a new game then that’s on you, not me.

 

I could easily afford to drop a RTX card in my PC other than getting it past the wife and objecting to paying scalper prices. Problem is the rest of it is rather old and the new card would be wasted - I7 4770 @3.5Ghz, max the mobo can take, 24Gb of RAM (don't ask) and only 450w power supply. Have to see how people fare with a GTX 1650, my current card.

After thinking about it, what's rankling is the price pitching. If they'd gone for something like (GDP), £19.99 for the single route starter pack, put in a £24.99 offer for a two route bundle (for those of us who already have SEHS and SOS which will transfer over), £29.99 for the Standard pack and £34.99 for deluxe, people would have been a bit less critical and more tolerant of the content choices. But I see after watching Schnauzahpowahz's assessment on YT this morning, they want an outrageous £29.99 for a single route starter pack.

 

I think what a lot of people are forgetting re: the price is that the UK is currently going through some what of a energy crisis and inflation is pushing ever upwards. A price rise was inevitable eventually regardless of whether we were ready for it or not. This leaves the end user with 3 options:
1: Buy now at full price and eat the financial hit to their wallets.
2: Wait for a sale and pick it up if the price seems reasonable to you.
3: Just not buy it at all.

 

What I read...
"We've coded ourselves into yet another cul-de-sac like TSW. Lots of things are broken again due to poor design decisions and to fix them in this version is too much trouble. So we're going to shelve this one like TSW2020 and start over. We'll add some shiny things to distract you all but basically you can all pay for our mistakes (again), and if you don't then you won't get any of the fixes we've been promising for 2 years"

I posted this in another thread but it can go here too because it seems that karlack26 has actually experienced it.

 

Without reading all this, what is exactly wrong with you guys? We get a big feature update costing 44,99 in Euros for me, with three routes!

One route is normally 29,99 in Euros, that means two routes = 59,98 Euros. Now I get three routes (yes including one I already have but with a massive extension) for 14,93 Euros each or when I not count the already by most people owned route for 22,475 Euros.

For everyone not having Spirit of Steam the Value of the Deluxe pack is also given.

So what is the problem? We get lots of feature updates, we can use ALL of our current TSW2 stuff and TSW3 will be also developed forward and is getting better.

If I want that TSW grows and gets more features, OK I pay my 50 bucks all two years.

The only thing that I'm personally pissed off by is not TSW3 it is that routes are still not fixed which I bought a year ago. But this has nothing to do with getting the TSW3 update and think about value for money. The DLC's are "extra" products and I want to have better Support on this. But at least to me it seems that with all the updates in the last month DTG is currently learning their lessons in that cases.

So yes I already pre-orderd the next big update for my favorite sim. People seem to think everything is free. Compared to MSFS plane add-ons (like PMDG or Fenix A320) and DCS add-ons TSW is stilly lots of stuff for low money. I just want better support for routes, bring them out, and fix them, I hate to wait for updates a year or longer on older routes.

 

I too am not overly excited about the release of TSW3. Firstly the routes don’t inspire me. We already have the British route, it is just an extension to what we have. The American route is good for the loco’s but is drivable in TSC.

Cannot see the need for creating another game if you like TSW2. Why didn’t they just update TSW2. I will have to delete my TSW2 content as cannot run both on my hard drive.
I have purchased all the content on TSW2 but will not be purchasing anymore as I have enough to play with and will wait for a decent sale discount. Not what I was hoping for at all.

 

I took a bit of a break from TSW2 after gorging on Spirit of Steam, so seeing the announcement of TSW3 was a bit of a surprise initially, but only in terms of how far out we are to release I guess. A few thoughts:

1. Developers need income; new routes and locos are incremental, and many of those will require revshare going to third parties. Additionally, rail sim games are a niche market, so sales of a base game are not going to reach millions of people.
2. The community needs ongoing new content; this is a fair expectation, as is the expectation that we need to pay for those routes/locos. but tastes differ quite a lot - some people love heavy freight, others prefer speedy passengers trains. Undoubtedly we all love steam, maybe... but there are also regional preferences too. So DTG need to try to appeal to as much of their core user base as possible, and prioritise those routes/gameplay styles that will result in as much incremental income as possible.
3. I don't think DTG is sitting on an endless pile of gold from re-packaging and updating TSW into TSW2; and they won't be sitting on a pile of gold from doing the same step with TSW3. I fully expect, as with most games, that key feature/visual updates do need base game reworks (and this is probably reflected in the TSW2 routes not being able to benefit from TSW3 visual updates, etc).
4. Is the price good or bad? I think this will be different for different people, and not helped I'm sure by the current headlines on cost of living. But I suspect that the price is set more from need rather than greed; see points 1-3 above. Should it be an upgrade for existing TSW2 owners? I can see both sides of that argument, but again, I suspect this is more about need than greed. Game dev and publishing is specialist and costly. In a genre with millions of potential players, upgrades would be a more likely option.
5. The uncertainty over progress carrying over from TSW2 --> TSW3 is disconcerting. Personally, as somebody who spent more time than perhaps I would have completing all the services in one of the routes, and with a vague ambition to complete all of them on all of the routes one day (yes, I know this will never happen, just like I will never complete all games on my Steam account, or complete all the achievements in World of Warcarft, etc etc) the thought of all of that resetting is not a good feeling. I don't doubt DTG will carry over progress if they can, and they may be looking at storing more of this data in your DTG Live profile going forwards... but given that they aren't saying it now (a few weeks from launch) means that it's probably bad news.
6. Bundles. These are good, but also bad. Good because starter packs are a useful way to give new players a lower price of entry, and for all existing players, the more new players that come in, the better - because more players = more sales, which is likely to lead to more/better content in the future due to increased resource. But... I'm a bit annoyed that there's no option for TWS3 + new US route + new German route only. As somebody who has been happy to invest in many TSW and TSW2 routes over the years, this is an intentional decision that penalises me for already having both Spirit of Steam and the South East route in TWS2. It's not a huge problem, but it doesn't feel wonderful.
7. Route location choices. I understand why US/UK/Germany are priorities... but I'd love to see some new locations by now tbh. I do think that some smart choices off the currently well-beaten path could do well, but I guess partly depends on licensing and the ability to recreate effectively (especially historical routes), route length, etc.

Overall I've pre-ordered the Standard Edition on Steam, because I want to support DTG in order to maximise my chances of ever more and better content in the future. I'm not overjoyed at all decisions, but I do like the updates and improvements - although I'm sure some will look at them as not enough to justify a whole new game, and I can see that argument, I understand why they've gone that way.

 

Yikes, that's worse than what I've been running!

 

Gotta admit that's a pretty good summary. :P

 

I think most people agree about buying the new game being good value and the issue is that it is unbalanced and more of a bargain for some people. In your case not owning one of SEHS or SoS you can get the deluxe edition which is the best value pack and it also qualifies for a launch discount to make it even more of a bargain putting it only a little more expensive than the standard pack. That’s why you are happy with it.

It is the only edition to get a discount and that’s the big issue. The already best value edition has an extra discount on top. For players who have bought both SEHS and SoS (I bought both at full price) and the 465 DLC (hands up to that one too) then there isn’t the same bargain to be had. This is most people’s sticking point. Those people are getting a poor deal in the way the bundles and discounts have been set up. I don’t want any compensation for having bought them in the past but I do want the same opportunity for the same discount you are getting. There may be a reason why only the deluxe edition gets the pre-order discount but really both that and the standard edition having the discount would be a lot fairer. It’s not surprising people are having a gripe over the 10% discount not being available on the standard edition of TSW3 and they shouldn’t be admonished for saying so in big pink letters.

 

You won't believe this but a shadowy figure has just barged his way into my workplace and held a gun at my head and forced me to preorder all 6 packages of TSW3 for Steam, Epic, PS4 and XBox X. I wouldn't mind but I don't even own an Xbox.

Be careful guys they are coming for you next.

 

If they had done that for £29.99 so you get the German and US route, then they would be awash with pre-orders (including one from me). As it stands, I would like to bet the initial take up might not be that good. The dilemma for DTG then of course, is how they can implement some more attractive deals without ticking off those who already pre-ordered. Well there is the option to cancel and re-order at a lower price, I believe without detriment to your Steam standing where refunds are concerned.

 

Steam has bundles which calculate the price tag based upon the stuff you already own. So pretty sure this isn't a technical limitation, but rather an intentional marketing strategy to get most money out of its customers.

 

I've seen several comments asking why this isn't just an update to TSW2, and the answer is the Training Center. Because we want to be able to separate routes and locos in the future we needed a rebuilt system to do this. We also needed a line in the sand with regard to which add-ons would and wouldn't work in that fashion - as well as the obvious commercial need to pay for this work. We started working on this last year so it's no small amount of engineering time that's gone into it.

Our preference is always to continue on the same base game while offering a bundled pack for new players each year, but we believe in this idea of separating your vehicles from routes strongly enough that this was needed. Obviously we hope in time that you agree it was a move worth making - but we'll have to prove that benefit out first.

 

Understandable from a functionality perspective why this is needed, but why are you making your customers pay for the bad software engineering design choices you made early on? Why isn’t training center the core of your advertisements?

Given training center is what makes the game ‘new’ (it doesn’t), and has a primary point of selling more content, you’re making old users pay for your bad design choices in prior versions so you can sell them more content in TSW3.

 

So you've justified the not-an-update in coding terms and quite reasonable, but you've not justified why customers have to pay for your bad design decision.

 

no is RTX 4090.4080.4080TI

 

Why are we paying for office 2023? Surely everything that is in that version should have been in office 95, or relevant free updates forever?

Whilst I didn't agree that they combined the locos in a route, I doubt you can reasonably say "you're asking me to pay and ONLY pay for that one thing because it's the one thing you're highlighting in this conversation so nothing else counts..."
That would surely be the lowest possible reasoning and expectation.

Almost like someone who publishes something then charges you again when you put a few lines on a livery. Who would do that?

 

To say its a insult to the TSW community is truly shocking way over the top,,,big thanks to DTG for taking on the challenge of a true to life train sim and bringing it to the world

 

Nah, you couldn't have possibly been working on TSW3 for such a long period. It wasn't on the roadmap after all

I'm sure it'll be worth the move in the future, but at this point, I see little direct advantages being taken of the new system. I had hopes, despite not being on the roadmap, it'd be possible to drive any loco on any route without the hassle of creating a scenario for it.

I had also hoped the bundled pack of routes to be a little more to my personal interest. The current selection seems to be rather niche routes. Which is good for those who like those niches, obviously.

So far, I'm on the fence. Perhaps the details of the new features that'll be revealed in the next few weeks will convince me to make a purchase after all. Although I'm kinda hesitant seeing the recommended system requirements went up quite a lot. I might just wait until after the release and ask people how badly performance has been influenced by all those new visuals.

 

Actually one thing I do think is interesting, and could make a big difference to perceived value in DLCs in the future, is how flexible the loco + route system is in TSW3. I don't know I fully understand quite how far this will go, in terms of how many more route/loco combinations there could be going forwards - but that alone could well be a very solid justification for new game vs upgrade.

 

Absolutely.
The new foundations look fantastic and should put the franchise in good stead for future releases.
The training centre is very well thought out, in that it will release loco DLC from specific routes, and allow a "go to" learning experience.
I really do want to thank DTG for this. I see how much hard graft was put into this by a lot of people.
I just hope they don't take the insults and spite to heart.

 

Gotta admit... TSC has had a central training center "Academy" and route-independant locomotive DLC for at least a decade.

Sure, TSW did add quite a lot lovely features that TSC didn't have, but there were also quite a few features that TSC had that were left out of TSW (Academy being one of them, but also Quick Drive). While training center is now new for TSW, it really isn't an innovative feature. It should've been there right from the beginning. DTG has had years of experience with train simulation, they could've seen this coming before even starting TSW development...

Also, uncoupling loco DLC from route DLC still doesn't get me driving my Class 33 on anything except it's home route without the hassle of having to create a scenario for it, because Timetable substitution/layering has all kinds of restrictions (no "off the rails" mode there), and apparently TSC Quick Drive mode wasn't considered important enough to be recreated in TSW.

So now that in future people could buy the Class 33 without owning WSR (which I guess means they won't have any coaches), how do people use their Class 33, when they don't own the only route the loco can be used on?

How's training center supposed to help us with these kinds of restrictions right now?

 

Except for releasing loco DLC from needing a "home base" it doesn't actually do anything anyway
It doesn't stop multiple class 66s or 377s, it doesn't allow you to run things in timetable mode etc etc
What it DOES do is allow these things in future (again without being tied to a route)
Hopefully they avoid the mess of 6 different class 66 packs in TSC...

 

How's that supposed to convince me to spend money right now? Yes it might open up a lot of future possibilities, but DTG hasn't promised us any of these yet.

 

If you ever take only one thing into consideration when making a purchase I would consider that "odd"

 

You are not being made to do anything, you have a choice whether to play TSW2, buy and play TSW3, play something else, do something useful with your time, the world is abounds with choice. I dunno why people find it so hard to engage honestly with this game, if you don't like TSW2, chalk it up to experience and walk away, but endlessly droning on that you've been duped, that you are somehow being forced to pay for another product? It's childish at best.

People have complained about DLC and game prices since day one, they complained about the season ticket price last year, they complained when the discounts ended, they complain sales are not frequent enough, they complain the discounts aren't big enough, they complained that the (free) core update last year wasn't good, they are here now complaining it's not fair there are discounts so soon after DLC was released, they complained when they had to buy TSW2 if they wanted to play new routes, they complained that TSW was a new game to buy rather than an upgrade to TSC, and those same people complained about the price of TSC DLC and after 15 years still have the lack of self-awareness to show up on a forum complaining how awful they think DTG are, and yet how willing they still are to do business with this apparently awful company. How does the saying go again? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 987 times and I'll angrily post a thread on a forum frequented by a few dozen people.

Oh and I could repeat the above for the various iterations of the roadmap, nothing ever goes down well with everyone here, and being a forum primarily occupied by 30+ British and German men it inevitably becomes a place where finding fault, complaining, listing off false equivalences, and generally insisting things were better in the past, and would be better now if only I were in charge, is the basic standard of interaction.

I'll buy TSW3 for the upgrade to SEHS, the German route, and the updates to the core game, and I'll pay what DTG are currently asking because the game satisfies my need for distraction/immersion/gaming, and I don't feel a need to suppose I could do better, or anyone is out there offering anything similar for less money, because there are few other games I play as much. For the amount of time some of you guys spend on this forum alone, you ought to pay DTG a monthly fee of 50 quid for the obvious entertainment value complaining about this game holds for you.

 

Welcome to the internet. Where people go to whine about things that don't affect them much (if at all) especially when they couldn't do better

I'll buy TSW3 because I want to drive trains, in a decent simulator, with decent routes, weather, passengers etc
And given that doesn't exist right now, TSW3 is somewhat close to "almost good enough" for me

 

No I don't. I've been adding up the interesting things TSW3 would offer me and assign a 'price tag' I'm willing to pay to these things. So far, it didn't add up to the price tag DTG set, so it's a no-go for me. Perhaps future streams and articles will give us more interesting details which may lead me willing to spend more money on TSW3.

So far, Training Center isn't worth anything to me. Future possibilities aren't worth much either, considering DTG can't even keep all their promises.

 

That's not all TSW3 has over TSW2

 

Purno Don't buy it then!

No one cares how much YOU think the upgrade is worth. But your constant whining is like a dynamic brake on the Cajon Pass.