Will Dtg Ever Go 'international?'

Hi All,
With the release of TSW3 looming, I wanted to ask the question of escaping the so-called 'big three' again.

It would seem like one of the largest missed opportunities in TSW3 is the lack of international routes, such as those in Japan, the Netherlands, Eastern Europe, South/Central America, and Australia/New Zealand.

Living in Australia personally, (not only would it be really cool) many routes would be very well suited to the larger route lengths TSW3 seems to offer, and I believe this extends to a plethora of other routes in the aforementioned regions.

Going international would be a huge marketing tool for Dovetail, and would significantly change my (and many others no doubt) opinion on the game.

Dovetail must stretch themselves to remain on the cutting edge of simulation. If they remain on autopilot releasing relatively uninteresting and un-characterful routes like the three included in TSW3 standard, a competition will overtake them or their playerbase will walk.

Do you agree, or am I being too harsh?

EDIT: If it was more user friendly and accessible, I would definitely consider creating my own routes in the editor. As this is not an option and unlikely to become one, this path is off the cards for me.

 

Here's the problems...

1. DTG would have to learn how a new area's railway would operate, which would require them to take extended time on development, which obviously the higher ups probably don't think is time worthy if they want a DLC out at a certain time....

2. DTG would have to secure a licensing deal with an operator in a new country, since they are not keen on doing unbranded stuff themselves for TSW.

3. DTG would have to figure out how to acquire info on new locos and rolling stock if applicable, especially if travel isn't possible or not cost worthy to a new country. (They had to outsource sounds for some NA stock recently, could only see how much of a headache that would be for somewhere new)

4. With DTG's 3rd Party doors very closed unlike TSC, its hard for a 3rd party dev to make something in a country they are familiar with, unless they work out the deals with DTG.

 

Regarding International routes of them actually use the same safety systems as an existing route PZB Indusi Germany Austria and Slovenia. If the TSW3 community wanted Villach to Ljubijana the Karawanken bahn route ÖBB SZ Slovenian Railways. That is a TSC route. Another one is München Hbf Innsbruck via Garsmich Partenkirchen DB ÖBB

 

Hold on a second what about Switzerland,France,Canada what are they the little 3 don't they count as something as well?There international aren't they,why do these 3 get seem to get dismissed like they don't even existe in tsw2.

 

The Swiss routes are made by rivet, not DTG, Canadian railways are incredibly similer to American routes, so the only truly international route made by DTG is LGV.

 

LGV was made because it was high speed, not because it was French.

 

By International I think we are looking further afield - Japan, Australia, New Zealand maybe South America. Before the recent troubles Russia, maybe China and of course India where there are 1000’s of miles of interesting railway lines. Then there are the many subway or transit lines around the world or even trams they could delve into.

But no we get more of the same old carp and for TSW3 they couldn’t even be backsided to do an all new UK route let alone something from a different part of the world.

Frankly it’s getting a bit boring.

 

I agree and I think you're not being harsh enough. I've often critized DTGs tunnel vision on the 'big three'. And DTG came with a few reasons, which I personally think are nonsense.

First excuse of them is that they need to learn train operations in the new country. But I can't imagine there's a whole lot difference between how neighbouring countries run their trains. Plus, DTG already has an active beta community including experienced real-life train drivers from a number of countries, probably willing to help them provide any information they need.

Second excuse is they need to develop more routes of the same countries in order to give people a good experience, with layers and substitution providing well populated route with good amount of AI traffic. Firstly, I'd rather have 1 route of a country than 0 routes. Secondly, if that's their real reason, why don't we still have no 2nd DLC of France and Canada?

Thirdly, while DTG says they want to add variety, even within the 'big three' they offer little. All German routes are modern electrified routes, several of them being high speed. It took DTG years to even provide us a German diesel shunter (after Rivet got there first), and the leaked unelectrified Niddertalbahn is supposed to be developed a thirdp arty. While the UK has some variety in eras, there's little to none modern freight (the Class 66 services are mostly a joke IMO) with a heavy focus on passengers. And US routes are mostly one-trick-pony passenger routes like LIRR and Harlem, or one-trick-pony freight routes. And while Spirit of Steam really offers us something new (about time we got steam), all we got was a UK steam route with nothing for the Germans and Americans. (And judging by the amount of steam content for TSC, I don't expect any non-UK steam content anytime soon)

DTG has already proven they'd rather recycle Dostos, Talent 2s and Electrostars than come up with something new. Apparently it keeps selling well enough for them. Good old times where route DLC came with a good selection of new rolling stock (GWE was probably the best example) seem to be a thing of the past. Even the SEHS update only comes with a new wagon, anything else is recycled. And while DTG say they'd love to see third parties venture into new countries, helping third parties getting started doesn't seem to be a priority for DTG, which reduces the chances of seeing new countries even further. For this, I praise Rivet (I hope their next DLC isn't UK, because I want to see more of Switzerland).

So yeah, you really aren't harsh enough. I totally agree with your desire for more countries.

 

I agree, any of those countries would be awesome, but what's the point in wishing for far-away countries when they can't even bother venturing into other West-European countries. I mean, they could easily have done an Austrian route, recycle some rolling stock, as I can't believe Austrian rail operation differs a whole lot from the Germans.

Unfortunately there simply isn't enough competition in this niche market. As far as I know, Trainz is the only one within the genre that features a decent selection of different countries (as well as offering an accessible editor which leads to a wide selection of community created content for several countries), but Trainz comes with its own set of downsides.

 

Something that hasn't been mentioned above is that to move into a new country often means a whole asset set for scenery, signals, lineside assets etc

Houses in the South of Spain look a lot different to the South of the UK or Northern Germany. Same with trees, even grass so they'd need to make all of that. Then there's the signals themselves, all of which would need to be made and of course everything else you see. Do the safety systems in Italy or Japan look the same as anywhere else? What about shunting signals, OHLE, pylons, sleepers...?

Making a few hundred assets is time consuming to research, build and place in a new route and it's this (as much as everything else) where they would want multiple lines around a similar location, spreading the cost of making those assets originally over a few route DLC

 

Apparently wasn't an issue for creating one single French high speed route, that also needed a brand new in-cab signalling system (which later was reused in SEHS admittedly).

Also didn't stop Rivet from making the very first Swiss route, the first narrow-gauge route, and the first alpine route, all at the same time, all while not having a log of experience using TSWs editing tools. I know Arosa comes with its flaws, but I certainly applaud Rivet from making something new. And it proves that it is in fact possible, and should not stop DTG from doing so.

 

It'll probably be years (if the franchise survives) before we start seeing more international routes imo. It took them a while to get TSC where it is nowadays and that's with support from 3rd party's, which is something TSW isn't as welcoming for currently (but will hopefully change). Having said that maybe we could be in for a treat or 2 next year.

 

I'm not sure they did the OHLE, signalling or other assets much justice judging from what people were saying, but I do believe they used TGV as a testbed to get SEHS signalling built, and of course that now goes into the SEHS extended so yet more money for what's been built before

Rivet are not DTG. They seem to like making Austrian routes, and to my mind all adds to the flavour. Shame they didn't do as well on WCL

 

Yes like loading up a German or Swiss electric loco to find the cab aliased to the UK Class 47 and sounds to lord knows what, Good for model style operation but not much else.

 

Agreed, but that's not to say they can't do a similar trick with other countries. International trains like the ICE and TGV, as well as freight trains run across several borders, so those could be reused.

Austria ≠ Switzerland. And personally I quite enjoy WCL. I guess not being familiar with the real life route helps. WCL certainly feels different from the usual UK routes DTG are making, and the Sprinter has been requested frequently (seems to me Rivet is fullfilling our requests a lot more than DTG does). Sure, Rivet routes aren't perfect, but would you rather see another recycled Electrostar route?

 

I remember Matt saying on a stream that new third party developers will need to come in and develop content for new regions. This is due to the amount of work put into a new region, as well as maintaining a regular release schedule for the big three.

While I'm not opposed to new regions coming to TSW, I personally would prefer this doesn't come at the cost of UK content coming less often. I like the idea of first party content focusing on the big three and having third parties like Rivet dive into regions new to TSW, like they have with Arosa. Hopefully more third parties will join in the future that want to focus on regions not currently represented in TSW, bringing us some different content.

So as I said, I'm not opposed to the idea. I just don't want to see a reduction in the rate of new UK releases.

 

Honestly, they could at least release more routes from the countries we already have in TSW, like Canada, France or Switzerland. Even that would spice things up a bit.

Talking about Japan, as the original post suggested, I find it ridiculous that Union Workshop is currently working on their new japanese route, but for TS Classic, instead of DTG helping them to switch over to TSW, for example. And currently I'm rather playing a very early work in progress japanese train simulator (TRAIN CREW) that is being made by a single dude, than play TSW.

The problem is, DTG keeps complaining that it's a niche market, but doesn't seem to do anything to expand. Sure, the UK/US/DE trio has the biggest market, but even the fans of these three will get tired of them eventually. Such a failing business strategy.

 

Let me guess, you're from the UK and already have several routes and trains of your home country in the game?

That's a luxury many of us don't have. Not even close.

 

Is UK/US/DE really the biggest market, or is that just a side effect of TSC focusing on the same trio for over a decade?

Looking at YouTube, there's a decent amount of train fans in countries like Japan, India and Russia as well... those aren't small countries either...

 

Probably both.

The US, UK and Germany are probably the biggest three market in modal railroading as well, I think. But just as you say, other countries also have big number of railway fans, for example I would think it's safe to say that Japan is also in the top 5 when it comes to model railways.

But DTG only focusing on the US/UK/DE trio means that obviously they sell the best on TS and TSW, especially when other countries are poorly represented even when they are made. Best example are Africa in TS (horrible modelling and route building quality) or Switzerland or the TGV route for TSW (both pretty mediocre quality).

 

I'm less bothered about trains and more talking about the assets that fill the route out. Trains go places and obviously you can see an ICE in many countries surrounding Germany, but things like the difference PIS systems, platform types, ballast, trees, houses, even road signs etc would be different almost as soon as you cross the border

 

Well, that depends on the country and dev. There's definitely good Japanese and New Zealand stuff for TSC.

 

It should be called train sim Western world.

 

It's 2022, why should this be an issue? All the stuff you mention could have already been in a database for every country in the world without even visiting the countries. So when an international route is discussed the database can be used to see how such a route would look like and which assets need to be made.

 

Indeed and in fact Germany is an odd choice as it's one of the few "civilised" countries that has blocked Google from placing Streetview imagery on its mapping and Earth apps, thus making reference much harder.

Of course back in the early route building days of MSTS, we had none of that soft stuff. Had to spread the OS maps out on the floor and manually compile the grid references which then had to be run through a converter into latitude and longitude, then modified into Kuju's arcane and obscure marker format. The terrain had to be crafted by hand, no small task on my 160 mile+ Far North route. Even the Swedish style route I did in 2005 relied on actually buying maps from Sweden though by then we had a program that could handle scanned maps (TS Tools), but it was still before the advent of decent DEM data and I had to trace within TS Tools 170 miles or so worth of contours to create the terrain. No wonder I now have neuropathy and tired old eyes!

By contrast today's route builders (including those working on TSW) have it relatively easy.

 

Yet can't be bothered to use them tools properly.

 

I think you misunderstand.
Once the route is decided upon, someone needs to do research on the landscape, stations, scenery etc and then either get from a UE library or physically make each and every asset seen on screen
So every type of tree, the ground, houses, factories, station clutter etc etc
I don't know if you've played the new IoW but as a cheat they've cluttered the place up with beach balls. Someone had to find or make those
That takes time, time which is better divided between two or three routes in similar locations rather than one route.
One that's before any of them are placed, any stations built, any trains built, changes to passengers (so you don't end up with people wearing heavy coats in the south of France etc)

 

LGV is kind of special. It was the first high speed route and it still is the route with the highest max speed at 320 Km/h.

Some compromises had to be made so the assets could be loaded fast enough when the train is moving that fast. Also, the route is almost 100 Km long. I know it doesnt look that long after the announcent of TSW3, but at the time it was another challenge.

On the other hand, the TGV model is one of the best in the game IMHO, specially for the sound and cab functionality.

 

Wasn't LGV the first use of terrain auto-gen? I wonder if its been used in routes since then, especially in the longer routes coming to TSW3.

 

We live in a capitalist world, so if it was economically viable to produce routes in other countries a third party or DTG themselves would have produced one by now.
No one has been forthcoming so clearly the demand isn't high enough to warrant the investment and make a return on the outlay.

 

That's not how things work. DTG do not have perfect knowledge of the market, nor are they infallible.

And third parties can't make content for TSW. Rivet etc. are more accurately described as second parties, and becoming a TSW second party developer is very difficult.

 

Any developer could agree with DTG to be 3rd party, but they aren't because of economics. And you think DTG don't do market research on what will sell and what doesn't?

Just because it's not the answer you want doesnt make it wrong

 

Well, I think one factor in the decision was looking ahead to making HS1, which meant modeling the TVM system anyway.

 

"Any developer could agree with DTG to be 3rd party"

Yeah, it's just that simple...

"And you think DTG don't do market research on what will sell and what doesn't?"

"Market research" does not involve calling up God to get facts that you can be sure are absolutely correct.

 

I have absolutely no idea what on earth this means but I'm fairly confident successful companies use market research without having a hotline to any religious deity.

 

The point was that market research is not a magic tool that gets you all there is to know on the market.

 

The swiss routes where made by rivet games true but they where made for TSW2 so,it doesn't matter who made them,that doesn't change the fact this is still a different country.
As for canada it's trains are yes more or less the same as the US but canada is still a different country.

TSW already has high speed trains for example the HST or the ICE 3 406 both high speed but either way france is still a different country.

Yes more new counties are definitely wanted but it doesn't change fact these 3 are still other countries,so they should count as such no matter who made them or why.

 

I suppose that's why routes from other countries are still being made to this day for TS Classic, right? Or why there are several other train simulators in the making featuring other countries. Because they are not economically viable... Sure.

Also, do you really take DTG's business decisions as your proof for these statements? The company that constantly underdelivers even according to themselves (as proven by the many "we are sorry, we know we could do better" statements), and the company that has already failed once with their flight simulator?

 

Should probably drop the "world" bit from Train Sim World.

See we know there are roughly 2-3 route building teams. Seems odd that they haven't considered expanding them to try and get more global reach... especially if we're going to continue the next 10 years with this ridiculous "only limited third-parties will get an editor" approach.

 

Has anybody stop to think with DTG and there 3rd parties NEW approach to releasing upcoming dlc info that just maybe the next NEW county to join the TSW game could come at some point for TSW3?(Just incase you lost count this would be county number 7).

 

Countries I would like to see added are alaska although it's technically USA but with Canada in-between. Australia, India, Africa, Japan, China, I know Russia isn't popular atm but parts of the transibirian railway are of interest. Poland, they have some rather interesting railways. There's many more railways around the world that are far more interesting than the UK and American routes and obviously the small part of Europe we already have.

 

North Korea has from what can be seen on the map some very scenic railway sections, including some electrified narrow gauge, but the odds on DTG getting a research team in there are pretty remote. Well they might get in, but getting out likely to be another matter altogether!

 

[REMOVED - Alex - Let's not get political please]

 

That's elimination on opinion.
Canada has a similar rail system but is a seperate country, so counts.
Rivet or DTG, Switzerland still counts as an international route. I know the point is DTG going 'international' but really we should say TSW instead, because it doesn't matter who makes it.

 

Just because something financially viable in one train sim doesn't mean its viable in TSW. Simugraph is far more complex than physic models in TSC and others. Thats before you start with route building and the extra features in locos we expect in TSW2.

 

Actually it has been said by the devs themselves that you can make anything much more easily in simugraph than it was in TS Classic. You can write more complex simulations much easier and faster.

And what does the type of train has to do with TSW being more complex and detailed to begin with? More detail and complexity applies to all countries and trains, yet making UK/US/DE content is viable, while other contries are not? I also don't get it when people say "but they would have to make new assets from scratch!". Like yeah, it was the case when they made the first US, UK or German routes as well, yet that didn't stop them.

 

2 Big reasons
1) Assets are ready built in the most part, especially signaling and catenary etc for the UK/US/DE routes, means less development time and economies of scales.
2) The market is known and DTG will have a fairly good idea on how many units they will sell over any given period so easy to budget dev time building the routes and be confident of making a profit.

 

I think so, yep. From what I heard in the streams it seems DTG found out that auto-gen could not help as much as they initially thought the hard way.

 

Netherlands can be easy for them because some German railway lines are International routes to the Netherlands like 64 km Groningen Leer the international section of Bremen Oldenburg
96 km Hengelo Bad Bentheim Osnabrück
156km Utrecht Arnhem Oberhausen Duisburg. Of these, the Duisburg Oberhausen Arnhem Utrecht can merge with HRR as Hollandstrecke Duisburg/Bochum-Utrecht. Even better it's actually linking Groningen to Bremen via Leer Oldenburg & Delmenhorst distance is 175 km between the endpoint in the Netherlands Groningen and the German City of Bremen.

 

Thats why Track 3 on Sherman Hill was cut, the auto gen didnt do enough of the route IIRC