PC London Commuter

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by dudders, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. dudders

    dudders Well-Known Member

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    After watching last nights London commuter stream what a stuttering mess this route still is. I gave up with this route one week after its release in the hope of improvements. How he can sit there playing this route and thinks its OK is beyond me. Its just not nice to play. And it's a shame because I think the route is amazing and so much more could be done to improve this.
     
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  2. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, this route is one of the least stuttering ones I play.

    Computer specifications
    Intel Core i9-9900 @ 3.60 GHz
    32.0 GB installed RAM
    1 TB SSD HD
    4 TB drive
    Video
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070
    8 MB GDDR6 memory
     
  3. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It might have to do with his setup, graphics and other applications running in the background and just streaming which has been causing performance issues during livestreams. It is much smoother when I play it even though I don't have the most powerful computer out there. There are still stutters from tile loading and such but it isn't as bad as what was shown
     
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There's been loads of improvements since then, though stuttering is a game-wide phenomenon in TSW (and TSC before that)
    I think in Sam's case he's using one machine to run the game, the recording and streaming, the webchat and video monitoring and who knows what else, so more than many people would be running on their machine at home
     
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  5. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. London commuter is one of my most played routes. It's generally pretty smooth. I have got to know the areas where the performance drops off a little. But it is far, far from unplayable.
     
  6. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Well-Known Member

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    I also want to note that I have no problems with this route. Fully playable in 4K resolution on ultra settings, I don't feel any discomfort.
     
  7. It don't stutter anymore than any other route on my pc. Even with a couple of ini tweaks for better foliage and track loading distance it performs quite well.

    If Sam was streaming from he's pc then you should expect he's gpu performance would be cut in half.
     
  8. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    At one point in last evening's stream, Sam went into a detailed explanation of what is happening to cause the stuttering and how this is caused by the UE as it unloads tiles prior to loading new ones. He said that the engineers are working to find a cure for this.
     
  9. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    So, Matt and I have started looking into the performance I'm getting because figuring out what's going on may help with performance improvements across the board.

    For reference, when streaming the game performance in TSW3 is around 50-60% of what it is normally (this is in part why the majority of streams are now hosted in the office). The weird thing is that my system isn't under any strain while doing so. I've tried dozens of different settings and configurations and my GPU never hits more than 12-15% utilised even when I've all my recording/streaming stuff enabled as well. My CPU is taxed a little more, reaching between 55-60% when playing the game in isolation, peaking at 70% with all the streaming software running as well.

    The question I asked Matt was - can't we just tell the game to use more resources?

    When I'm not streaming the opening of the route hovers at around 40 fps, with most of it hovering around my vsync cap of 60: 55-59 is where it tends to live... and yet still only 10-15% GPU use, 50% CPU. RAM use is at around 8GB throughout (32GB on my system), disk use is negligible. In short, there's nothing obvious causing any bottlenecking.

    This will be looked into further and hopefully a eureka moment is reached.
     
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  10. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that too. I didn't watch the entire stream, but I noticed he was on a PC and the stuttering was even worse than I see on PS5.

    I've been playing it a bit recently and find that it is definitely the most "intense" route on performance but it is better than it had been and I consider it pretty playable now and improved since I first got it (I stopped playing it back then because it always crashed anyway).

    With FPS counter on I find it around 20-25fps London Victoria for morning departure... then the worst FPS is just leaving Victoria, before the bridge. In that spot it gets down to sometimes like 15-20 FPS there. As soon as you're past Battersea it goes up to 30-45fps for most of the route. Then the farther you get away from London the more it improves, up to 60ish in some places.

    One issue that nearly ALL routes have in TSW is "microstutters" where even when FPS are high, it stutters every few seconds and makes the game feel a lot less fluid than it should. So even if you are running at a locked 60fps you feel a stutter every little while where it drops to like 20-30 for a split second but that split second is very noticable.
     
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  11. I wonder if this is down to frames being queued when the unused tiles are being offloaded.
     
  12. I find on my pc I get low gpu usage if any of the settings are lower than high/ultra and scaling is set lower than 120% at 4k resolution.

    Hd/1080 I run everything ultra and 200% scaling and my gpu usage is always 100% and good frame rates.

    60% cpu load seems a bit high. Out of curiosity what cpu/gpu are you using?
     
  13. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

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    I would like to back this up. Had a bit of spare time recently, so been doing some tests on TSW3 using lower than normal settings. Lowering all in game advanced settings to mid, resolution at 2k, Max FPS 50. GPU usage never above 60%, Cpu usage never above 30%, yet the frame rate drops in some areas are still significant, and the micro stutters are still there. I5 12400, 3060ti, 16GB, M2 ssd 970 pro. Not top end, but should be more than good enough.
    Some areas of the route sit at 50 and the game runs really nicely, then a stutter hits, lose around 5-10fps momentarily, then back to normal. Thing is, it does not feel like fps loss, it feels like a pause. No matter how much you lower the settings, some areas of performance improve, but the games pauses are never eliminated. This must be worth the effort to get fixed. Would even volunteer some time to do some specific tests for the team if it helps. I am sure others would too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  14. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The route itself runs near- perfectly on my admittedly pretty high- end machine.
    Little to no stuttering or hanging and a consistent 60fps (limited ) at 4k ultra settings.

    So I guess performance is pretty much hardware related.

    My only problem with BML is getting " tollway trance " from driving those mindless electrostars.
     
  15. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    That's with all my streaming gubbins going which is 6-8 windows, including xSplit (streaming software) which is quite hungry.

    I'm on an i9 9900k and an RTX 3090. Genuinely shouldn't have a problem with the game, and yet...
     
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  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’ve never seen massive usage of gpu, more under dx12 but on a 1440p widescreen 2080ti I only ever really get up to about abou 60% usage unless I try getting adventurous with screen %.

    RAM I only ever see about 14-16gb used. I have always wondered why the game doesn’t use more RAM to preload more to help fps or dynamically benchmark and push the systems more
     
  17. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    There are private persons not affiliated with big software companies streaming MSFS (a game that looks at least10 times better then TSW, lets be honest) without stuttering from their gaming pc.

    That TSW has such issues has not much to do with the PC of DTG Protagonist
    TSW is currently very badly optimized. Thats why we all have generally bad performance (in relation to graphic quality of the game) and thats why we have this massive stuttering, probably even more during streams. I hope DTG is working hard on fixing the performance!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
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  18. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    No, we don't all have " generally bad performance " and " massive stuttering ".
    Some do, to be sure, but you are really only speaking for yourself.
     
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  19. Maybe try running some monitoring software and see what's going on with the gpu when gaming. It could be your hitting power limit or temperature limit?

    Try the scaling at 200% and see what gpu usage is then, the 3090 is quite a beast but tsw3 should push it past 60% atleast.
     
  20. BeastyBill88

    BeastyBill88 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still running TSW2 (not 3) and I have to agree with you on this not everyone is getting the same performance issues, I mean I get the occasional stutter where the game is loading the next tile but depending on the route it's usually smooth at 50-60+fps (with drops in certain places on the routes SoS I'm looking at you and your goods yards lol). Now I'm not running as big a beast pc like Sam is, mine only has a 3.4ghz i5 11600k, 3060Ti, and 2x 2tb HDDs etc but even if I'm recording gameplay I don't get massive stuttering issues. It's weird and frustrating to say the least because it's not everyone who has the performance issues so trying to pinpoint where or what the problem is can be hard.
     
  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. I'm getting 60fps almost full time and I'm running an (almost brand new) Core i5 with an RX580 so hardly top spec
     
  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    And what makes it difficult to analyze is that, if 1000 people are playing the same route at the same time, there will be 1000 different hardware/software combinations and therefore 1000 different experiences.

    That's for PC. Consoles are different because there's more standardized hardware.
     
  23. BeastyBill88

    BeastyBill88 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly it, there's so many different hardware configs out there it's near impossible to pinpoint. Hell you could have 2 PCs with the same hardware etc and they still might not get the same results as one another.
     
  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Just ran 1W02 to Brighton via Gatwick. Played with nary a stutter, very stable 60fps,
    Folks, I sympathise with those who have difficulty with BML but there's nothing wrong with the route itself. " The fault, dear Brutus........"
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
  25. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The game is badly optimized, there is no way around that. People with 2022 hardware playing a game with 2018 graphics get only barely 60FPS with many (micro)stutters in between, lots of texture pop-ins, shadow issues.
    People with 2022 hardware should not have constant stutters and "barely 60 FPS" with drops to the low 40s.

    Everyone hast stutters (constant, every x seconds) in TSW. People claiming they dont have them are just not noticing them or ignoring them for whatever reason.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    And your evidence is?

    I have stutters on some routes and none on others, I haven't used BML for a long time but I don't recall it being particularly bad. GWE seems to be the worse for me for some reason.
     
  27. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you are not able to see them then.
    How old are you ? :D

    There ist micro stutter on all maps, more or less.
     
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  28. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, they are stutters on each dlc but some dlc are more affected than others. Some routes don't have stutters. Sometimes the only stutters I notice are tile loading ones. I'll mostly have stable runs. Now, these don't bother me cuz I'm more focused on the driving so I don't tend to notice too much. The game works and I'm happy
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The only stutters that worry me are when they actually affect the immersion, others are so slight that they are barely noticeable, if at all. I was driving IOW 2022 which I bought yesterday in the sale and didn't notice any stuttering at all. GWE as I said seems to be the worse, the new CCL has a few.
     
  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't see people claiming they don't have SMALL stutters, but you keep exclaiming you're getting huge stutters or seconds long drops in FPS and I am not getting that on my PC TSW3 setup

    Maybe it's somewhere in between
     
  31. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Other than the drops in yards and extremely busy areas, I wouldn't really say the stutters are huge per say
     
  32. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Fact is: A game with 2017/2018 graphics like TSW 3 should NOT HAVE constant (micro) stuttering / tile loading stuttering on modern 2022 hardware.

    That I have much more stuttering in TSW then in MSFS (which looks at least 10 times better in every way) or AAA titles or other train simulators already tells the whole story.

    For some people, a 0,25 or 0,5 second stutter every 30 seconds might be acceptable. But for most of us it is not and i hope DTG are working hard on fixing this massive issue.

    Every youtube video of TSW3 as well as the official streams has constant stuttering.
    Xbox might be the best actually, i guess thats why many streams are done on Xbox ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I did have one on the new CCL when the game hung for a few seconds, although it hasn't happened in the same place since, not sure that counts as a stutter but that route was a bit stuttery at first although seems to have improved subsequently although not perfect.

    Generally it doesn't impact my experience though.
     
  34. If you got the 12600 it's faster than a 11th gen i9. Just.
     
  35. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    No, it tells your story not the whole story.

    That may well be true, but that's not the same as players' experience on their home machines.

    Stuttering may be a problem for some players, but it's not the universal issue you're trying to establish.
     
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  36. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    How do you find it at Victoria when its busy? I haven't seen a single system online, in streams, etc that doesn't have low FPS there... that said its not a huge issue since you're basically just setting up the train and leaving (FPS always get better just outside the station a bit) but I'd be curious if you have a wonder PC that actually gets good FPS there.
     
  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe DTG's inbox isn't telling them it is a "massive" issue! Share with them your statistical evidence, I am sure they will be grateful.
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    upload_2022-11-24_14-28-52.png
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You're comparing apples to cinderblocks.
     
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just booted up 1A08 on BML and when the services loads in I got 17FPS and then sat there for two minutes with it reaching 59 before set off time
    If I zoom out in camera 8 it drops to 50 then back up to 55
    Up onto the ramp - 35-43
    Grosvenor bridge - 39/40
    Battersea Park - 50-52
    Clapham Junction: North - 37-40
    Clapham Junction : station - 30-46 moving, 47 stopped
    After that it settles between 55 & 60

    (and then I get the UE crash on exit)
     
  41. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I see some poster speaking of getting just around 60 fps, and not having frame rate limiting in place. On my machine with London Commuter, I average above 80 fps most of the time with those micro stutters which last well under a second with fps dropping into the 40's when it happens. Is it noticeable, yes, does it bother me, mostly no unless it gets over 1 second. It usually shows up as a sound glitch v. screen pause.
     
  42. I average 60 vsync with dips in places, then I have got the tree lod at maximum!

    That cpu is the dogs..... for gaming ARuscoe
     
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Given I only really play TSW and rail route it's probably a bit overkill
    I do generally have five or six other things going on on my other screen and "only" an RX580G GPU though
     
  44. When I put my rig together I could of got a 12700 or even a 12900 but they was total overkill so I got the 12600kf. Your gpu isn't the best but you can always pick up an upgrade in the future.
     
  45. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Cant compare TSW with other 3D train sims?

    Again, its always interesting when the "i have 60 FPS constantly" is followed by " only micro stutter of 0,5 seconds and drops to low 40s".
    I mean, its ok, because this is the reality of TSW. Your PC is not under attack, you may well have a beast PC, TSW just runs badly/ is badly optimized currently...thats why DTG is working on Performance and stuttering ;)
     
  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not when those other train sims (MSTS, TSC, Trainz, Zusi, Run-8) all have PS2-level graphics.
     
  47. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    There are a few that have semi-modern graphics just like TSW ;)
     
  48. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I decided to run that service to check my performance.
    Leaving Victoria: 46-48 fps.
    Passing Battersea: 54-56 fps
    Leaving Clapham Jctn: 60 fps
    Held steady at 60 all the way to Gatwick.
    My frames are capped at 60 for 4k.
    Didn't notice any stuttering, though I do look away every few minutes.
    Had to save and quit at Gatwick to eat Thanksgiving dinner.
    Will finish the service later. ( unless I fall asleep from eating too much turkey );)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
  49. juliplus#6089

    juliplus#6089 Active Member

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    I still hope one day they fix the passenger behaviour
    It is such an immersion killer driving with an empty train after passing gatwick
    Like Tf rush hour in london and the trains are empty
     
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  50. zappatime

    zappatime Well-Known Member

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    For some reason I get a massive fps drop (into single figures) on the approach to East Croydon station, in either direction; changing view (2, 3 or 8 key) immediately puts the fps back to a ‘normal’ 50-60fps, but something happens when looking from the cab in the direction of travel towards the station approach that my pc just does not like. I may try it without the enhancement mod in case something in that has got corrupted, otherwise running in dx12 the micro stutters seem quite small on this busy route (i7 4550 with 2080 Super @ 3440 x 1440/120hz)
     

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