PC Dynamic Events Are A Must For Tsw

As the title states, I think the addition of dynamic events will really add a new level of playability to TSW.

The current ‘issue’ with TSW as it is now is that there’s no real variation in the timetable. As it is a perfect clock face timetable, once you’ve played a handful of services, you’ve pretty much played them all. Unless you intentionally leave late, you’re always going to get the same A - B runs, with mostly consist of green lights from end to end. This can make services turn into a bit of a snooze fest, as everything is predictable.

In real life, even when nothing ‘goes wrong’, there’s always some sort of variation.

I’d like it if adverse weather affected the AI trains. Perhaps their acceleration and braking could be made to be more gentle. This would make them run behind schedule, thus introducing more adverse signals and making things less predictable. Other things could include signalling issues, or a train experiencing issues ahead of you. Not everything has to technically happen, but it could be made to ‘feel’ like it’s happening with some clever trickery.

I think it would be a good idea if there was more life around the railway too. Whether it be workers on the track or nearby construction works going on, with NPCs and animated diggers and construction traffic. The current assets are a simple low level of detail port from TSC, of which they don’t even animate in TSW. Rush Hour was supposed to bring some of this into fruition, but the whole project was very poorly executed, to which it never happened.

The technical challenge is to make the dispatcher not ‘lock up’ aka make everywhere have red lights when there are delays. A toggle would be ideal, to at least choose whether you want a perfect run or one with dynamic, unpredictable events.

I think this should be DTG’s focus for next year, for them to push the boat out and bring some life out of a rather sterile feeling TSW.

 

Yes yes yes... concentrate on making the routes already out the very best places they can be, with more loco DLC as well.

 

Yes, absolutely.
The slightly variable weather has improved things but as you've said, everything runs like clockwork regardless. Something like a signal or power current failure would be a simple event to drop into the timetable. Likewise train faults (such as interlock issues) and even disruptive passengers causing delays and/or curtailments.
I do wish there was an option to be a guard too.

 

Disagree until/if they get the dispatcher actually working correctly.

There's already plenty of unintentional ramdomness IMO.

 

I completely agree, one of the things I really enjoy with Eurotruck is having to find alternative routes in certain places or deal with traffic jams because of dynamic events (or ai faults hehe). Just adds another level of immersion. Imagine you had the option to enable train faults that made you have to terminate your journey early or events like signal failure that require you to use the slower tracks and fit wihin the timetable of local services.

I'm sure this would take some time to implement but it would be yet another thing to make the sim really stand out as well as add much more replayability.

 

The thing is, and I mean it as serious as one can be:

How on earth are you able to tell if it's a scripted error or just a bug?

 

Bugs wouldn't have explanations. Lets say a dynamic signal failure occurs, maybe you receive a radio message or even just a pop up on the UI saying "There is a signal failure up ahead so your route has been diverted"

 

Good idea, but, what if people don't want to have a warning, or play without HUD?

 

I can understand not wanting a HUD notification but as for no warning that wouldn't even make sense from a simulation standpoint. A driver would be told by signallers that there is an issue up the line and train faults usually come with some sort of alert or noticeable light in the cab.

It all depends on what these dynamic events are, but I'm sure there are many ways in which they could be incorporated that are both realistic and non intrusive. Again, I think being able to both enable and disable them entirely would also be good. Think some of the 3rd Party Loco addons for TS-Classic that have these sorts of features.

 

As a counterpoint, we see these random/variable events in other games and they're cool at first.
But after a while they just get super repetitive, and even annoying. Not sure it'd be worth being super high priority.
We'd need the ability to toggle not just variable events but the types of variable events.
Things like signal problems, getting rerouted- that's pretty cool stuff. But I'd freak out if 30 minutes into my run it gets terminated for a door fault.
I think I would like to see weather make a larger impact on the flow of traffic though.

 

Starting with something simple, signal failures should be very easy to implement with current tech. They do not need any diversions (so, no need to break the dispatcher), broken signal bulbs are pretty much standard procedure. Taking Germany as an example, if bulb breaks on the main signal, it automatically drops into red aspect (many signals have second red bulb for that case) and distant signal changes accordingly to expect stop. Dispatcher will then let you through with either replacement signal or drive-on-sight signal; with or without prior stopping. Both have standard procedures connected on how to proceed.

If all bulbs go out or signal gets completely cut off power, it will be dark, and then you have to obey fixed signs that are mounted there for that case - distant signal sign tells you to always expect stop, and white-red-white mast on main signal orders stopping.

In some cases signal may be intentionally turned off by dispatcher and with a single white light on otherwise dark signal you are told to disregard the signal like it wouldn't be there.

This can be introduced into TSW pretty easily with just adding scripted random logic to current signals, and in theory could be easily applied to all routes across the board.

TramSim does this pretty nicely, with a toggle for broken signals between off/realistic/high. When I have it on realistic, I maybe get one broken signal out of the thirty along the way every third or so ride. With trains having much less signals overall, maybe once in 7-10 rides would be great.

 

You should put this in the suggestions section.
Very good idea!

 

You see, this sounds like a fine idea on paper. But I doubt the execution would be that great. Let's take a look at the other highly requested "dynamic" thing in TSW: dynamic weather. What used to be a really cool and highly suggested idea by the community turned into a very predictable and repetitive annoyance where every single run turns into rain and thunder. Of course, this can be exciting, as a clear day with nothing to worry about suddenly turns into a scenario where the driver has to be more careful. But the idea was not executed well at all, where dynamic weather in TSW3 is pretty much guaranteed rain/snow. There's no sense of unpredictability, the same thing could be achieved simply by setting the weather to "rain". So if dynamic events were to be implemented, I fear that it would get annoying pretty quickly.

Yeah sure, it's all up to how well DTG does at implementing the feature. But a feature like this is just ASKING to become an annoyance. I can picture it already: You run your train out of [busy station on the route]. Suddenly, you're facing adverse signals for a majority of the journey due to another train ahead of you running slowly. You boot up a different service. Same exact thing happens. Another service. Same thing. Green signals are suddenly the exception, not the standard.

Sorry if I seem dramatic. I just fear any other "dynamic" additions to the game, really.

 

I support the idea in principle, having now experienced a bit of randomness in Simrail at least MP, but does need to be bolstered with a robust dispatcher and the nuclear option of going in and deleting stuck trains.

 

A ZUSI-like feature would be nice

 

In my opinion this is not in interest of the developers. In case of random events players would stick longer with already owned routes. Because replayability of every single route would be greater and than there would bot be incentive for new routes to come out frequently as is now the case. So current policy is that when you get boring of one route and that will happen very fast than your only option is to buy another route with the new train for the new but again short living enjoyment.

 

It's been suggested many times that delays could cause delays and adverse signals etc, but the main issue then comes with how the game works with the dispatcher. ie if a train is late coming into Victoria how can it then leave if it hasn't arrived yet?
Because the signalling hasn't been made intelligent enough to make this adjustment everything fouls up

On a single trip (like a scenario) shouldn't be an issue, but when you have 100s of runs interacting and trains not where they should be that's what would need working out.

IRL a dispatcher would route trains into different platforms or delay release of lights etc on trains yet to arrive, but in game those lights change for some other programmed reason

 

The developers see what's bought, what's played, how long for, session time etc. All of this is available from the store pages for creators.
So they know for example that some people don't buy every route that comes out. They know that SEHS was played more than other newer routes in TSW2 (they said so on stream) etc etc

So I think it's simplistic to say "They want us to buy everything and think we only play the newest".

 

Care to explain to a Zusi noob what that would be?

 

You can set the irregulalities level (percentage value) in the game options.

So if someone does not like surprises can set the value to zero and vice versa.

// p.37
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0cEeoK60Xqh2c7TAM3ktey

 

I'm not sure you realize what you're asking. Dynamic events can only work with a dynamic dispatcher- and the difference is great. If the current dispatch and timetable system is an intricate clockwork, which just barely stays running properly if everything is balanced and nothing nudges it, then a dynamic dispatcher would be like a ship's chronometer, which has to keep dead-accurate time not sitting on a shelf, but aboard a rocking, pitching ship. This was such an enormous (and important) challenge that Parliament offered a 20,000 pound prize* - imagine what sort of dosh that was in the 1700s! - but it took fifty years despite that massive incentive.

*Yes, technically the prize was for solving the problem of longitude, but the solution was the chronometer

 

So, we ask for a dynamic dispatcher for dynamic events to be possible then

 

I think I agree with the above in that it would be amazing but it's having multiple dynamic events.

failures
Breakdowns
Line changes
Things on track etc

I think it's finding s mechanism which doesn't Chuck a fault up every play , neither on the button every 5th service.

i can imagine programming "random" is horrendous and I can imagine creating enough weirdness for said events more so.

 

Would it be possible? Even if the dispatcher could see your running late and stop you at a signal for a express too pass would be a start.

 

The simple fact that there's a forum thread that asks people to list "Awesome service mode runs" out of the thousands of service runs speaks volumes for playability of TSW
I think DTG get side tracked into developing things that don't really matter in a train simulator. Things like working escalators and lifts aren't really important when at the end of the day your in that world to drive a train. I don't even care about working crossings as there always down when you drive the train through them

 

An interesting point of view

 

I agree with you.
But there is a big difference between both simulators!
On Eurotruck, you can "freely" go where you wants.
But on TSW by the contrary, you are limited to the "paths" created for the timetable or scenario.
The chance to manage every switch - unfortunately - it is not possible!
You can only due that only on some yards for shunting.

Hopes in the near future despite you have a path for your route, there be the chance to manually change switches!
Of course at your own risk!
As this could cause problems with the AI trains.
But this will make the timetable and scenarios more challenging and entertaining!

What do you think about my idea?

 

If it is difficult to implement maybe the best alternative is to introduce a SimRail type of multiplayer with TSW timetable mode - seems to be going down very well with a lot of folks. It's been a massive playability boost for train simming (for those that enjoy multiplayer of course).

 

My question about this would be, aren't train operators IRL running over assigned routes, with any switching done for them? If a change in track is needed, they call in and someone takes care of that for them, after seeing what other trains might be impacted and taking that into account. But unlike trucks on roads, trains are still passively limited to where their set rails allow them to go. So isn't the inability to "manage every switch" and take your train wherever you want in the spur of the moment more realistic?

 

I never said it would be easy. To try and keep it simple (ish) to start with, leave the ai alone and focus on just the player train. You driving along and for whatever reason losing time, if a ai train is stuck in the signal block behind you then you will lose priority and be moved aside at the next opportunity so it can pass.
Just like you get pushed aside by peds.
If you start to make up time then you would keep your place.

Or something along those lines.

 

As it stands right now, each service mode timetable has to be "pre-simulated" in its entirety. Every AI train move gets precalculated and if there are issues with services, the compilation fails. You then have to go back and adjust timings, reroute certain trains, and resimulate the timetable in its entirety in order to see if it'll run into errors again.

Due to the nature of this, I don't see how you can have a timetable behave differently every time with the current way timetable simulation is done.

 

This isn’t totally related to dynamic events but what happened to the proposed NPC updates? I recall in a pre Rush Hour stream that you wanted them to have a bit of variety - such as holding newspapers, mobile phones, headphones, handling luggage and suitcases etc.

I also recall you wanted there to be track workers and station staff, however this sadly isn’t present, even in the newest TSW 3 DLCs.

I’ve noticed the NPC logic is still pretty ‘dumb’. For example, on several occasions, you will open your train doors but a lot of them will just stand stationary down the platform. It won’t be until you’ve closed your doors that they’ll all start walking towards your train. I’ve noticed this happens on several routes so I can only assume this is some sort of bug in the coding?

Finally, it would be nice if there was some sort of ‘life’ outside of the stations. I’ve always found TSW worlds to be like ghost towns. I think it’s because on most routes, most roads do not have any NPCs walking down them, as well as there being a distinct lack of light sources from both lack of streetlights and buildings - the approach into Birmingham is notoriously bad for this, as it looks like the whole city has had a blackout. I think a lot of building assets still don’t have a proper light source associated with them?

 

Sounds like basically, the possibilities for people to do random things at any second of a run that the AI would need to compensate for means that the difficulty of creating such an AI would increase exponentially for each simultaneous human allowed to be involved.

 

Matt has explained several times that adding passenger variety is a lot of work. From the animations to the models to possible memory usage from all the unique character models, etc. Not as simple as you would think to create a brand new character model

 

Anything that eats memory can be limited if necessary on fixed platforms (consoles) or by use of a slider on PCs. What seems to interest most players apart from increasing the variety of characters, is making their behaviour more realistic in the sense that they board and leave trains in a logical manner and when appropriate (which is somewhat lacking at the moment).

 

Not really sure how that would work. We certainly don't want something like Trainz where you have to set the route ahead of you as you drive the train. That has always been abject nonsense and one reason I rarely do any driving in the game, just use it to build model layouts. The best option is something like Zusi where at certain nodes there is a % chance you could get routed on to an alternative line, so long as you can get back to the path to your destination. However IIRC that has to be set up on a per train basis which would be an onerous task for the timetable compiler on a busy route.

 

I agree on lifeless outside stations. I remember a year ago playing Paddington and a thought came to my mind after I'd just jumped off my bi annual dabb,e into TSC.

That thought "how comes diggers move on TSC but not ysw when they're both a dtg product?"

They trigger me now and I'm purposefully keep prodding that boarded up digger bear.

A factory with a forklift driving about
More rail fans
More npcs routed into towns or trackside
More moving and working sites.

Sometimes if you're on a two track route it can be like walking a sterile corridoror but then other times you spot that small detail that totally immerses you.

I guess there's the element of you're in the train and why would you see Barry walking to get the paper but then how many of us "2 and 8" cam around enjoying the artists work for it to sometimes, especially feel like we're playing 28 days later.

 

Is the problem in that it is 'the' dispatcher as opposed to say for London to Brighton its several workstations and associated interlocking in real life. I am not certain as I don't poke my nose into Zusis under the boards features but I am certain it's running interlocking on a separate location basis. IE the computers processing is not trying to route the train all the way at the same time it's just dealing with it as it approaches the area of control much the way real life signalling does.

I have a feeling with TSW the signalling used to stay at Red on a stop and then clear once the station duties done (that's a safety of the line incident in real life and is very bad to see replicated as normal behaviour in a simulation).

Reading Matts comments it's welcome it's a wanted feature but ultimately don't hold your breath....

 

Isn't this kind of implemented on some routes? If you do the 313 ecs move on London commuter, you are stuck behind another train until eventually you are routed past it at a station. Or does the train you pass terminate there?

 

I believe it's more a case of "that will always happen on that run" rather than it being a random occurrence whether the train in front is delayed or not...

 

Ah wishful thinking on my part then.

 

Yes I think most of what appears to be random is actually scripted, whether in a scenario or the timetable set up.

 

Yea I'm starting to get the picture. Although the dispatcher does have some sort of random event when it comes to red signals. Sometimes you are held at red indefinitely, sometimes for a extended period of time and sometimes not held at all. That's what I've found running the same service multiple times.

 

No, in a TT (scenarios using a TT too) is nothing is scripted. Just plain commands like go-to, load-unload. The rest is highly dynamic. When i was doing the scenarios and services for the G6, i was able to see how dynamic that thing can be. A tiny change in your timings and the whole can be totally different, and there is nothing scripted for that.

Always ZUSI. ZUSI is not the holy grail. ZUSI can also easily get blocked when the dynamic factor is set to higher values. And ZUSi does not offer the jump-in as TSW does. In ZUSI a timetable always starts from the set start time and you need to fast forward then. If the start is at 6AM and you want to drive a train at 7pm you need to forward 13 hours and that can need some time. Most players would not want to wait that long. And often, when the dynamic is set to high, the forwarding will end in a blocked timetable too. TSW is way better in that regard. It's simply faster to get to a play, and tbh. that matters for 99% of the players more than dynamic timetables that have the chance to get stuck every second time (i know, you can get stuck in TSW too yet).

 

I'm just guessing here. In the real world wouldn't a train that's running on time be pathed around a train that's running late and getting later by the minute no matter what the priority? Logically thinking, once a train is holding up all the services behind it, it will lose priority no matter what.