Tsw's Future: Should It Forget About The Past?

Over the past couple of months I have been observing and taking part in various debates as to whether routes would be better set in the BR blue era. Usually these end with someone saying something along the lines of 'BR blue routes don't sell and/or aren't popular'. This comment always leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I feel this isn't quite the full story and more of an excuse.

So I have a few questions regarding this:

• Would you like to see more BR diesel routes in game? Why?
• Where is the data which says that BR diesel routes aren't popular sourced from as we haven't seen a true BR diesel route in game since TSW 2020?
• Why do certain people on here have such a disliking towards BR diesels?
• Are there any genuine development reasons (i.e. not the age old they don't sell) why BR diesel routes aren't being made?

Just to be clear I would absolutely adore to see BR diesels more than anything but at the same time I am not totally against modern routes so please, please, please don't appear at my front door with a pitchfork.

So what are your own personal thoughts on the above questions?

 

I enjoy them as well as the modern stuff.

Tees Valley Line is one of my fave routes (extension/expansion, please DTG), and i'm thinking it's because it takes place a bit later and so has AWS enabled. Also there's a very nice mixture of service types.

I don't like NTP nearly as much, as I find the end-to-end runs kinda boring. I did enjoy the Class 08 shunting services a lot though.

I'm not from the UK, so i'm not too bothered about the setting and location as long as they're well done.

Skyhook has a diesel UK route in development- maybe it's BR era?

 

I think the data is due to the number of sales. I think dtg can see how well it sold and how many people suggest modern routes or how people react when the new shiny stuff come out.

I quite like br blue routes but I'm more inclined to the modern stuff

 

I feel like the whole ‘BR hatred’ thing is fabricated, ironically you see a more vocal bunch using a derogatory tone towards fans of the modern stuff.

Personally I’m on neither side of the fence, I think both era’s have their own issues, and pretty much every complaint about either era can be applied to the other in one way or another.

One thing I do agree with is that I don’t think it’s fair that DTG can say the BR stuff doesn’t sell well, when they haven’t tried to sell any in a while.

Maybe they just don’t want to rock the boat, same thing with Germany, if something sells really well, why risk it? Maybe they could be using TSC data?

 

Number of sales of what though? They can't base it of of TVL or NTP sales as they were released to a smaller fan base and are now outdated routes shouting for upgrades.

 

I think it is because we haven't seen any BR Blue routes since Tees Valley Line. Most of the people who came after TVL didn't come for a BR Blue route (I came for the Bakerloo line and East Coastway, and have focused on modern stuff since).

I have enjoyed Northern TransPennine, and I don't even have the Heavy Freight Pack, but I would prefer my home route to be made in a modern era, so that I can experience it as both a driver and in a cinematic camera angle, then take that to the actual route. There's only so much you can see as a passenger looking out of a window!

The point I'm trying to make is that people will want a route or train that is emotionally close to them. This is often a route that they used frequently in their childhood (or whenever they first got an interest in trains), but there are exceptions.

For instance, some say that the Electrostars look virtually identical, but others (like myself) say that there are differences. Some (like myself) say that the CEP, BEP, and other similar slam-door EMUs look identical, whereas others say that there are differences***.

Some say that the Porsche 911 range is made of completely identical cars, whereas others say there are slight differences! Some people can't tell the difference between the Airbus a330-200, and the Airbus a330-300, whereas some people can.

With regard to the fight for BR Blue, the people who vouch for it typically have experience with that kind of rolling stock (even on heritage railways). However, since most of the routes made for TSW have not been made in the BR Blue era, most who join the community will not look there for their first choice of route suggestion.

Then there's the issue that if you make a route in one era, it is highly unlikely to be remade in a different era, which is why people want a route made in a particular era.

(***if you can't tell, I grew up with Electrostars, which explains my viewpoint. Doesn't mean I'm against BR Blue, but I do tend to prefer modern plastic units!)

 

I'm not from the BR Blue generation but certain historic routes would still appeal to me; ECML York to Newcastle with a Class 55 Deltic and/or Valenta HST, with layers for the Class 08, 31, 40, 45, 47 and 101, plus BR Blue versions of the Class 20 and Class 37, would be absolutely fantastic. We essentially need a BR Blue route people can get excited about, and anything that maximises variety through use of existing stock and layering would be the best option (whilst subsequently increasing the appeal of the DLC necessary to provide the layers as a side effect).

 

Personally prefer the modern era but wouldn’t be against the the 90s with the proper HST & 225 liveries and original Sprinters

 

100% agree with you here mate and is the reason why I would like to see a couple of BR routes before DTG carry on with the modern stuff.

 

Your bias towards BR blue era unfortunately has resulted in your questions being skewed unfavourably. Q2 has an unnecessary qualifier ("as we haven't seen a true BR diesel route in game since TSW2020"), Q3 is entirely inflammatory since I have never seen anyone say they "hate" BR diesel, simply that they find them boring or are not interested, and Q4 implies that you simply don't believe there are any genuine reasons why there are no recent releases. My suggestion would be to delete the thread and re-pose the questions in a non-biased and non-emotive manner if you want to seek proper answers

However, to directly address them, in a non-biased manner:

1. I'd like to see routes of any era, country and motive power, and also fictional routes at varying levels, since in my opinion (this bits biased) no one person should be pushing for more of content x at the expense of content y simply because every person has different tastes

2. I personally have not seen the source, but previous posters have stated that at some point in time DTG have very clearly stated that modern sells more units than BR blue as far as UK based stuff is concerned, it was possibly in a stream or from an old summary of the annual survery where this may have been stated. If you need to see it with your own eyes to believe it, you may be able to search the forums or someone may be able to link it for you

3. No-one hates BR diesels as I have stated above (unless someone wants to come to this thread and outright state that)

4. No-one outside of DTG can answer that question, and sales data is a very important metric when it comes to any producer of any product investing time and money into said product. If previous sales data indicates that product sub-type x sold more units than product sub-type y by a magnitude of z, then this absolutely will influence whether they produce more of product sub-type x or y

 

I agree with what the person above wrote, the fact you think it’s an excuse when it came from someone very high in Dovetail, personally yes I’d love to see more BR routes not just diesel but BR electric such as the 87s, atp etc. no one hates BR blue the truth is it doesn’t sell well as it’s not plastic modern iron board seat nonsense that the little kiddies know about

 

1 Yes, Its an era (1970's/ 80's & 90's) that I grew up in and for my area was a big change going from dieselisation in the mid 80s to Electrification (3rd rail). Not only that the 1980's and 90's was a huge period of change where alot of the old loco classes were withdrawn. So it has significance in being made for TSW 3, 4 or even 5.

2 That would be DTG's sales reports. They can tell whether or how a route is selling and whether they will be able to make profit from the route.

3. Because the younger generation (not all mind) have grown up with 377's, 450's, 444's 375's, 170's and hardly any loco hauled services. Yes you have preserved railways and the odd Diesel / electric / steam railtour.

4. No, but "the age old they don't sell excuse" is not an excuse. The time and money that has been spent on researching and development of a route as far as I am aware attached to a cost / budget. Dovetail is a company that have to be seen to be making money by creating content that will sell to a wide audience. If it doesn't sell to the "younger" area audience which this title is aimed at then they are not going to to make a decent profit. Its business.

Hentis

 

I think the main strength of BR blue is the layering potential that many modern UK routes lack. A lot of the criticisms of newer routes having empty stations and a lack of diverse rolling stock are something BR blue era routes can help address, in much the same way that the DB routes in Germany have so many opportunities.

 

Fully agree with this. I'm happy with steam, BR Blue or modern era, but I'd really like to see busier and more diverse UK timetables making full use of layering and substitutions in the way that we see with the DB content, as ultimately I strongly feel that this is TSWs most prominent USP. BR Blue would be a good way to achieve that given that there's already quite a bit of rolling stock available to use.

One thing I would say is that if we get more steam or BR Blue era content, there should be a focus on not just the quantity and frequency of services but accurately representing the full variety of services (including newspaper runs, restaurant cars, shunting, pick up and dropoff goods to name just a few - service types that by and large have long since gone the way of the dodo and don't need to appear on modern routes).

Did someone say Motorail?

 

The questions are more to gauge an interest in a BR route rather than modern routes so that is what I have based them on. Like I say I have no issue with modern routes but I just don't feel the balance between them is right.

It isn't unnecessary but just states the truth.

Fair-dos maybe hatred was rather strong so I will give you that and edit it.

No it is more the fact that I wondered if there was also something from more of a development point of view which also hindered their creation other than they don't sell. (edited question to more clearly show this)

I feel it is used by some people as an excuse on these forums when anyone suggests a BR route yes. I don't disbelieve that NTP has less sales than LBN or BCC but NTP is an old route released when the fanbase was smaller and now people aren't going to be as interested to buy and old dlc which lacks the core features newer routes do. If dtg released a BR route and it did do shocking than fair-dos but until that happens you can't compare old routes to new ones when sales are concerned

Also just to reiterate I am not saying every route released should be backdated but I think there should be more of an even balance.

 

I would love for some backdated routes. I don't have Train Sim Classic, but if I did, then the first route I would buy would not be my home route, but actually the Portsmouth Direct Line. (it is just close enough to me though for me to understand it)

The reason being the fact that they made old Portsmouth Direct Line and new Portsmouth Direct Line.

If they did a similar thing for a new route in TSW (for example, the highly requested Coastal Mainlines of the United Kingdom) then I would love it! Both those wanting modern and older traction would be happy (as long as it isn't executed like Diesel Legends of the Great Western) but then that would probably be WAY too much effort for £30.00 (Unless it was a stupidly short and low-effort section of the route).

 

One thing I would like to see is "route" seperated from "era". With the exception of lines that no longer exist (e.g. Woodhead) the trackage on any given line is generally the same as it was when originally built, with possible exceptions for things like smoothing curves out, reaplacing at-grade crossings with bridges and the like. If this were done it may be possible to produce the same route in different eras with the trackage being shared between two versions, and era-appropriate signalling and scenery in the respective versions

 

With the clear love of UK routes set in various era's desired by many here.The sad fact is that unless dtg get there technical in game issues better delt with going forward,there may not be much of a future to look forward to by anyone here.

 

I would love to hear anything from DTG about this topic. I understand that making a route set about 40 years in the past can be as resource-heavy as a complete new country, and I also understand that modern stuff might just sell better because it follows the "See it in real life, control it in the game" pattern that you just can't have with old stuff that far in the past.

But, I would still like to hear a more in depth explaination. Even if it ends with the certainty that we won't get one in the next five years - at least we will know then and don't get "dissapointed" every time the time-code is set past 2000.

 

• Yes, because I prefer older locos to more modern locos. The operation of older locos is often more involved and the rugged, simplistic construction (compared to modern computer-controlled locos) appeals to me.
• Probably the sales figures Matt and Sam often look at. Really though, the lack of more vintage routes is a combination of factors, which I'll talk more about in Q4.
• Same reasons some people have such a disliking towards modern stuff. Different people enjoy different things and childhood nostalgia can (it doesn't have to) play a huge role here.
• Yes, there are. Any historic route requires a significant amount more research than a modern route because you have to work with old maps, photos, reports, etc. since you can't simply go to the route and create documentation yourself. The most extreme case of this so far was SoS, but even more 'modern' routes (with little change to the route overall having taken place in the meantime) like CRR suffered from this. Matt once revealed in a stream that they were only able to do CRR because they were already in contact with a guy who could supply all the documentation they needed. If not for him, CRR would have never been done. These problems simply don't exist with modern routes.

 

• Would you like to see more BR diesel routes in game? Why?
  Honestly, not really, I found NTP quite boring as a whole, I do enjoy playing TVL, but I really do not like the 101, so mainly play with the 37 or 31.
  I wouldn't mind other BR era routes, but would have to be something unique or different than the diesels. Woodhead for example, or early 300s units.
  
  
• Where is the data which says that BR diesel routes aren't popular sourced from as we haven't seen a true BR diesel route in game since TSW 2020?
  I, for one, would be very reserved on buying a BR diesel route, unless it was insanely well done. For me, and a few others I know who play TSW, they just don't appeal to us. I do recall it being asked on a stream and the reply was that modern stuff does attract more people, but they aren't obviously ruling it out. It's ultimately down to the 3rd party to create and sell the content.
  
  
• Why do certain people on here have such a disliking towards BR diesels?
  It's the same reason that some people don't like modern traction, I can't relate to it, and dont really have the need to simulate driving it? I grew up with fairly modern (albiet now mostly withdrawn) trains, so I'd want to see those more than I do things I only see as the local Thunderbird or on a heritage/ museum route.
  
  
• Are there any genuine development reasons (i.e. not the age old they don't sell) why BR diesel routes aren't being made?
  I suspect that the main reasons are that they are harder to recreate? Signalling plans/ station schematics/ timetables/ town and industries change. That all needs indepth and calculated trawling of archives and OS maps to create, where as modern routes can use overlays like satelites to quickly generate and populate areas.
  
  Look how much 'hate' modern routes get for not being accurate, how much more flak would a historic route get if they struggle to simulate the current workhorses?
  
  Long story short, I guess it's more resource intensive and man hours than a modern or specialist route (S.o.S. had the potential of drawing in anyone who enjoys historic locomotives).

 

Personally I think there is room for both. Biggest problem is that all the recent UK routes have been electric (MU) traction, regardless of being set in the current day or thereabouts. It's time we had a good diesel route even if it's Sprinters or, as I remarked in another thread, the by now infamous "Basils" on the Wherry or Sheringham Lines.

I can't see a BR Blue era route being harder to make. The old Railscene cab ride videos, most of which are now on You Tube, were shot during the late 80's and early 90's. Commercial organisations should not have any issue funding the old mapping sites which have now gone behind a paywall. They did it for SoS and that involved trying to recreate a very railway intense area from 1958, a time few people living now have any real memory of. There are not that many main line diesels missing from the collection - Type 2 Sulzers, Class 50, 55, 56, 59 and 60 plus the Hymeks and Warships. A Class 108, Class 117 or Class 120 DMU would have wide application as would a Class 205 Thumper.

DTG would make a lot of friends if the next UK route was classic diesel and one or more of the above traction types was star of the show.

 

What's a Basil?

 

I believe that it is the nickname which has adopted by the new GA Stadler units because they are so faulty.

 

Aw man! They looked so nice though! (I've never been on one though - only an Aventra)

 

Looks can be deceiving.

 

I wouldn't object to a 90s route with some BR era trains or the valenta etc, however I'd also be open to them incorporating more trains into older routes and making them as alive as the newer

 

I'd like to see another BR Blue era route soon but first I want to see a modern UK route with decent freight operations as we haven't had one of those at all! Diversity is key to expanding the player base. As much as I like the modern stuff I am getting really bored of the stream of UK routes being pumped out with a single train and peering through a tiny window because there is a door stuck on the front.

I just want diversity and we are not getting that right now.

 

What freight operations do you think the present modern UK routes lack?

 

Amen

 

A proper freight terminal would be a good place to start! Then we can start talking about locos....right now we have a grand total of ONE.

 

You not heard of realism? If your bothered by a small realistic window use the outside camera

 

When did I say I was bothered by the small windows? I said I am bored of the same type of train every route and want to see some variety in the type of driving I do. I have had a lot of fun over the years with Electrostars from internal and external views but I am beginning to lose interest in TSW3 with the same type of route and train on every new release. You don't have to feel the same but I know many that do.

I just don't see the point in releasing the same thing every time when there is literally not a single modern UK route since TSW was released with a freight terminal and we only have one freight loco. We are long overdue some BR Blue as well.

 

Don't have a clue about Bristish stock, but I do agree that DTG should look at bringing more vintage routes to TSW, help diversify the eras of route, there is currently too many modern trains.

 

imo id take a more BR Intercity era

 

This. My dream for TSW would be a steam route, modern route and a vintage 80s or older route in each of the three big main countries. That would give pretty much everyone something to play with and look forward too.

 

Mendip stone would be a good base for a modern freight operation. Merehead and Whatley maybe up to Theale.

For the 90s one I've proposed several times is Yorkshire Coal And Power based around Knottingley. Several coal mines and power stations in the area, primary motive power Class 56 with some Class 60 too. Throw in a Class 142 Pacer for the local passenger runs.That one would sell like hot cakes, IMHO.

 

I´d never have thought that I´d appreciate so much these BR Blue routes with Heavy Freight and Diesel Legends on TVL, NTP, GWE. Or even the Class 33 on WSR. I´ve purchased these only because equivalent equipment is totally missing on the german routes (A BR 218 and/or BR 232 would be so exciting ...*SIGH*). Then I started to love these routes even with visibly outdated assets, just for their unique sounds: Engine and brake sounds, the track and switch junctions 'clack´ sounds, the well dosed flange squeal sounds, ...... a switch junction on a Class 31 hits you right in the stomache. I could go on. Somehow it seems to be a forgotten art because the newer routes don´t offer such a well balanced sound mix. Sure, newer equipment is not that noisy, but still it doesn´t feel right on the more modern routes. A steel wheel on a steel track still DOES make some proper noise, as much as new technologies might kick in there.

I shall respect the modern EMU lovers. But I guess that ol......... young-since-longer-time people like me don´t get the excitation with a tunnel view out of the drivers seat and a combined throttle/brake lever which - nobody would´ve guessed - accelerate when pulled backwards and brake when pushed forwards. Or was it the other way around? Anyway, it´s kinda digital ..... besides I think a 385 in example is a really fugly piece of a train. But that´s just me and again, those who love it, shall have it. Just don´t make it unique.

Now, when it comes to commercial considerations, I´d recommend to DTG NOT to underestimate my generations´ purchasing power. I know we are dying out sometime soon but we are still financially better off than, say, students or recently established employees for whom a fiver more or less makes a difference. Been there, done that.

 

I'm another who grew up in the BR Blue era and was one of those who bought weekly rovers and we'd go travelling all around the North West and along the North Wales Coast. Back then loco's had more character about them rather than the modern traction you see now.

Then there's the different type of carriages, MK1's ,MK2's, MK2e/f, MK3's, all with their own characters, the compartments in the MK1's, this hissing of the MK3's, the humming and break rub sounds of the MK2's.

We've a decent list of loco's in TSW3 to make a very good BR Blue route, though we could obviously do with a few more additions too.

Also back in the 70's, 80's there were more track, depots and freight services, for example look at DTG's TSC version of North Wales Coast in the modern era and compare that to the excellent work that was done to transform it to the BR Blue era.

I'm not saying every route should be BR Blue but it would be nice to see another one in the not too distant future or at least an additional loco like a 25, 55 or 56, maybe even a 73 for the Southern region in the meantime with some additional rolling stock like a MK1 Buffet/Restaurant and MK2e/f's

 

One of the few reasons I keep Open Rails and MSTS installed is to run the classic North Wales route (Version 2 which includes the BF branch). As this was on CD sold by UKTS it will probably vanish at the end of August, when the site closes. It's a festival of classic traction.

 

I grew up in the BR era, my first experience of trains were the various Tyseley suburban units in the early 1980's onwards. I do think this period is unrepresented in both this sim and TSC, although at least in TSC there is plenty of stock from the era so you can run intercity period class 87's on the WCML south route for example.

Personally I like modern trains to an extent, some I find boring, but they are not my core interest and if we are just going to get modern routes, particularly with one MU included it will get boring fairly quickly. I wasn't as excited about the new Scotrail route when I actually saw it as it is just another route with one train, however it is what it is and I like driving different trains so will end up getting it.

For me the sim should try and represent different eras as much as possible, I hope to see more steam as well as BR blue. One of the wonderful things about routes like TVL is that you can revisit an era long gone. A class 37 on an heritage railway is really not a substiture for hauling a load of hoppers on the mainline.

So my answer to question one is a resounding yes!

Question 2: if DTG say they aren't as popular then they have the figures but as you say it is four years since we last saw a proper BR period route, I don't count WCL as that doesn't seem to know what era it is in. NTP and TVL seem to be popular, the latter particularly so.

Question 3: I think many have narrow interests and others more broad. I do get the feeling that because some have a particular view then they feel that they must be correct and in the majority, therefore if you call for something they are not interested in then they probably get worried that it might happen in place of something they would be intersted in, so rail against it. It does work both ways some are dismissive of modern routes too which doesn't engratiate those into modern routes in supporting calls of older period routes. Maybe we should all try an accept we all have different interests and that ideally the sim will cater for all.

Question 4: There is so much material on the internet, in books, in magazines that there is no reason why a period route going back to the 1940's can't be built. They managed spirit of steam and NTP so there is no excuse. I for one and I am sure others would be very happy to help lend material for research and there are plenty of ex railway people around who I am sure like to share their knowledge and experience.

I hope DTG are considering or will be considering a more period route this year, just one which feels nicely complete would be enough for me (for this year at least)!

 

Just the other day I did the early morning oil run with the Class 40 on NTP. That was a blast. Made me wonder why something like that has not been released in quite a while.

From the US freight routes, Clinchfield is also my favorite due to the historic setting and rolling stock.

Matt recently made a post on another thread, that he would like to see the Class 73 and 4CIG. Makes me hope a bit for the future.

 

It’s all relative I guess, but when I was spotting/bashing 40-odd years ago, HSTs, all multiple units, and to some degree class 47s were regarded as ubiquitous and dull. However there were still a large variety of 1st gen diesel and electric locomotives around to keep us interested, each with its own character and regional stomping ground. Unfortunately I missed the hydraulics but the unique deltics were pure magic, and once they went the class 50 became my loco of fetish (not forgetting the whistlers and rats!).

As recently as Tuesday’s stream Matt confirmed that BR blue routes were no longer considered because of poor sales projections compared to modern stuff. Personally I think that’s a real shame and a great disservice to mature players who perhaps got into TSW through NTP or TVL, and naturally expect more BR offerings at some point. It does indeed appear then, that the bean counters have truly taken over at DTG, with the enthusiasts having no say at all. No longer will we see products appealing to a variety of customers, but only those that will potentially appeal to the largest possible demographic. When one thinks back to the humble beginnings of Rail Simulator rising from the ashes of MSTS, and the vision that the company had of creating a product that appealed to all rail enthusiasts, it is quite saddening when one sees where we are today.

 

We are over due a BR route looking at it from what's been released so far. Problem is even though a lot us want older stuff it's the figures that count and it would appear that modern sells. What I would find interesting is that based on initial sales or longer term figures. A lot of my friends wouldn't be day one purchasers for example ss they don't follow the scene closely. A lot of younger players will be more tied in to social media etc and may go for day one if funds permit.











From a personal point of view it's very frustrating to hear that only modern stuff keeps getting announced. A pretty busy BR route could be cooked up but instead we get empty route after empty route, and that's sometimes with BR era stock but in today's colours.



One way to counter this could be to do routes that haven't changed much in years apart from signage and motor vehicles then more packs could be released and more timetables. Fort William to Mallaig is one and its got iconic structures and famous trains it isn't huge length wise. Has some potential freight at the East end and its core train hasn't changed in well over 30 years. Could appeal to modern day fans, diesel loco fans, steam fans and the film fanatics....



There's a balancing act we know to the case but if the next route or few routes is one train plus 66 layer expect more voices to ask why are we waiting still......

 

That is extremely disappointing to read. Particularly the no longer considered part. It is four years since we had a BR blue route, I think it is short sighted to just concentrate on modern routes. There is plenty of interest in the BR period in the model railway scene and not just from older enthusiasts.

 

I'm guessing routes like the Wherry Line (also Sheringham) and Grantham across to Skegness could also fall in this category. Certainly if the AP Wherry Lines are anything to go by, you could be driving the route in 1975 or 2015.
Both these routes would take a nice layer for a classic "Summer Saturday" service when trains descended on Yarmouth (or Skeggie) from all over the country with various motley freight locos and run down Mark Ones making up the consists. Then you could have more recent times with 156's, 153's or even 170's (and the Basils).

 

Well that is disappointing and frankly (mild sweary alert) a bit of a LOVE decision.

So I guess the boss asks for a steam route including Crewe and 80% of the production crew does nothing else for 6 months. A significant number of customers want something more than bland EMU's on bland Network Rail lines and it's not considered. In that case time to open the tool cupboard up to everyone, including freeware authors - if you won't build it then let others have a go.

 

I can't see JT or ATS making any period routes either. It is hardly going to be simulator encompassing a wide variety of British tastes if they are ignoring a large chunk of railway history.

 

Unless the demographics of the users differ greatly, if BR doesn't sell why did the recent TSC Huddersfield route come with BR period stock?

 

I guess DTG would argue that TSC is still around for us oldies to enjoy the old trains lol.
As I said though, they reeled us in with NTP and TVL only to discover after investing hundreds in various DLC to support the newer platform (some of which is fairly good), that « That’s all, folks! ».